It Was "like" A Cult...but It Wasn't A Cult

[Air]

You cannot be 100% sure that the ones you are saying it around arent rape victims, Holocaust survivor (or kin of), or a Jew...so you dont say it at all

But I could say this about almost literally anything. Someone who lost loved ones in a car crash or was seriously injured in one could be triggered by talking about cars, or someone who was in a combat situation could be triggered by someone mimicking gun noises, and statistically speaking those would both be rather prevalent causes of PTSD, but that doesn't mean we should stop talking about cars and ban Call of Duty. When it comes down to it we can't go around policing our speech on the off-chance that we trigger someone's PTSD. The world is a scary place and at the end of the day we have to just let it be that way with people going about their day saying things that would almost always offend the right person.

You can never understand how an amputee feels or what their challenges are unless you too have lost a limb.

True, but you can begin to for sure. Perhaps I'm just over-estimating the empathy of other people, but it seriously seems pretty easy to understand most things if you care to think about them for a bit.

That is also the same reason Dr Phil says "I will not tell you I understand" to parent's that's lost a child because he has not.

I kind of hate him honestly.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

But I could say this about almost literally anything.

Indeed you could,

triggered by someone mimicking gun noises

I dont know of any adult, though im sure they are out there, that mimicks gun sounds. Why? Just say "it sounded like a machine gun."

When it comes down to it we can't go around policing our speech on the off-chance that we trigger someone's PTSD. The world is a scary place and at the end of the day we have to just let it be that way with people going about their day saying things that would almost always offend the right person.

Sure, something you may say may offend one or two people and that we shouldnt police but if I say "I was raped by that game", I would offend those that were raped, those that know someone that was, and those that werent on behalf of those that were. Basically, instead of offend one or two you are now offending most of those you are around. Big, BIG difference.

but you can begin to for sure.

No, no you cant. You can empathize by imagining how they feel but you cannot fully understand.

I grew up in a cult. You cannot possibly understand what i went through and what im currently going through and battling daily, hourly, and by the minute.

You can empathize by imagining how it was and is for me but thats an image, not reality and you dont know what really runs through my head and what 'special challenges i must overcome as you arent in my head and wasnt there, nor were you in a cult.

I kind of hate him honestly.

Hating Dr Phil doesnt make what he said any less true.

 

[Air]

I dont know of any adult, though im sure they are out there, that mimicks gun sounds. Why? Just say "it sounded like a machine gun."

Okay fine, that was a pretty bad example. I'm sure they are out there somewhere though.

Sure, something you may say may offend one or two people and that we shouldnt police but if I say "I was raped by that game", I would offend those that were raped, those that know someone that was, and those that werent on behalf of those that were

By I don't think they should be offended. The actual person who was raped, sure, because they won't want to relive the experience, but unless they were there or their life was hugely shaken by the other person's rape, I don't think they have a reason to get pissed off.

No, no you cant. You can empathize by imagining how they feel but you cannot fully understand.

Have I ever said "fully understand"? I think I've been being extra careful here to always say that your understanding will not be the real thing and is not nearly the same. As you say though, you can imagine how they feel, and that in itself is a sort of understanding (albeit not a complete one) that I am talking about.

Hating Dr Phil doesnt make what he said any less true.

I know, I'm just pointing it out. What you said wasn't really a big point, just an example, so I'm just throwing it out there that I hate him.

 

[Sighs]

Sigh! I know I said I was out but... Oh. My. F*cking. God.

By I don't think they should be offended. The actual person who was raped, sure, because they won't want to relive the experience, but unless they were there or their life was hugely shaken by the other person's rape, I don't think they have a reason to get pissed off.

Well, as long as YOU don't think they should be offended then that's it then. *sarcasm*

As I said earlier, I have never been raped. Nor has (to my knowledge) any of my close family or friends. But, as a woman, I spend my life considering all my actions in the context of rape culture. Eg: Where will I stay in an unfamiliar city? Will I leave an event early so that I am home in the daylight? Do I take a taxi or a bus? Do I wear these heels or that skirt?

Rape metaphors are offensive to everyone because they belittle the experience of being raped and normalise the actions of rapists.

you can imagine how they feel, and that in itself is a sort of understanding

:banghead: No. :banghead: It. :banghead: Is. :banghead: Not. :banghead:

You cannot imagine it. It is completely outside your imagining. You cannot in your wildest dreams imagine how it feels. And it is patronizing and rude for you to keep insisting that you can.

 

[Friday]

@Ragdoll Circus

There is a huge difference between using points of similarity to further your own understanding -hell, any help I can get, from any quarter- and the co-opting / assumption of a thing which is not my own. All that does is muddy already turbulent waters. On both sides.

But if you take the points of similarity? That gives you real things to work with. As do the points of difference. And both of those? Are your own. Solidly your own.

 

[Air]

Rape metaphors are offensive to everyone because they belittle the experience of being raped and normalise the actions of rapists.

They don't normalize the actions of rapists. What's next? Do dead baby jokes normalize infanticide? Do pedophile priest jokes normalize pedophilia? No one hears a joke meant to shock and offend and thinks it makes anything okay. Those jokes are specifically funny because of how f*cked up we realize they are.

You cannot imagine it. It is completely outside your imagining. You cannot in your wildest dreams imagine how it feels. And it is patronizing and rude for you to keep insisting that you can.

I've yet to come across someone who can't imagine something in my life and get a general feel for it. I've come across people who don't want to, across people who will call me a whiny bitch and tell me to shut the f*ck up if I bother getting into certain things about myself with them, but they haven't tried. Everyone I've met who will sit down and listen to me talk about something going on in my life can understand where I'm coming from in broad strokes.

 

[Sighs]

Sigh!

All dalmatians are dogs. Not all dogs are dalmatians.

Just because others have been able to understand your life experiences does not mean for a moment that you should presume that you can understand others.

 

[Air]

Sigh!

All dalmatians are dogs. Not all dogs are dalmatians.

Just because others have been able to unde...

It's pretty strong evidence though. My life experiences are not particularly easy to understand I think, and the fact that other people can understand is good evidence that people can do the same with others. You could claim my life is so bland that everyone can understand it, but I doubt that very much.

 

[joeylittle]

Spoiler: A post about the tangent of the thread - devaluation of language and how it is, actually, relevant

I doubt the person saying that they're sweating like a Jew in a freight train would say it without trying to be offensive, whereas the person saying they were raped in a game probably would not be trying to offend anyone.

I believe this has been said - but both these are good examples of how normalizing violence, bigotry...normalizing things that are negative to a society - desensitizes that society, and ultimately it moves the line between what is permissible and what is not.

That's just true. "That's so gay" meant, "that's so dumb/ridiculous" for a long time. Gay = bad. The times are turning, and the word, "gay" is being reclaimed as a word that people fight to be proud of. Gay no longer equals bad - unless a person directly connected with gay culture wants to co-opt the negative implication as a form of self-empowerment. That's why it's a complex concept.

It's not about being sensitive or PC. It's about language and cultural norms. When it's normal for someone to say 'I'm gonna rape you' in fun, in jest, in the context of a game - there is absolutely a connection that can be drawn between that and stripping the meaning from the word. Rape is sexual assault, not a metaphor for winning.

But if you take the points of similarity? That gives you real things to work with. As do the points of difference. And both of those? Are your own. Solidly your own.

This is really well-spoken, IMO. Agree, much.

 

[Air]

both these are good examples of how normalizing violence, bigotry...normalizing things that are negative to a society - desensitizes that society, and ultimately it moves the line between what is permissible and what is not

I agree that normalizing something in society will lead to it becoming more acceptable. As you say, the changing of gay people into being a norm rather than a weird outlier definitely lead to the less homophobic society we have now. But that said, I believe the "I'm going to rape you" in relation to a video game is used as a hyperbolic expression of dominance and degradation, and it is thus like many rape jokes, predicated on the idea that rape is something shocking and terrible. Many other terms such as "England murdered France in that football game" or "you totally f*cked up that guy in the boxing match yesterday" are made using language that is meant to portray a sense of exaggerated dominance over the opposition, it is only natural that rape is one of the extensions of this sort of speech.

I would say that the only way to reduce the usage of the term besides an authoritarian law that bans the term outright, would be to consider rape to be no big deal, to consider it not to be humiliating, dominating, or particularly negative in any way. I think that would truly trivialize rape, and as long as it has a rightfully negative connotation it will continue to be used in the same sense.

 

[Sideways]

I'm probably in a minority here, and maybe it's because of my sense of humor which has been described as dark, morbid, and occasionally disturbing,

This earlier personal insight, I think, was a significant one.

 

[Air]

This earlier personal insight, I think, was a significant one.

It is. I will freely admit that perhaps my personal lack of offense has given me a biased view of certain things. Of course it isn't an argument against anything I've said, but it may be significant.