It Was "like" A Cult...but It Wasn't A Cult

[Sighs]

@Air - except that in this case, the person describing the small mound of dirt has never seen a mountain. And therefore is being insensitive and disrespectful to those who have scaled Mt Everest. Not to mention extremely arrogant in assuming that they have some "basic" understanding of mountains.

I do not have a problem with metaphors in and of themselves. Some are beautiful. But some are offensive. Eg: The moon was like a boat, tossed on cloudy waves. vs "I was sweating like a Jew in a freight train."

Personally, I find it extremely offensive to describe a group of young, very highly paid athletes playing a game to entertain others as warriors when sitting next to me is a warrior who suffers mentally and physically every day from actual warfare.

As I understand it, @Ragdoll Circus is concerned that her use of "like a cult" may be offensive to those actually abused in a cult and she does not wish to be insensitive or arrogant. In my personal view, she is neither.

 

[Sideways]

@Sighs - I think your example is really helpful to me. Combat is clear cut in my head. @Air 's point, that there's a tonne of movie and gaming 'experiences' of combat that you can have - in my head, it doesn't matter how many I sit through, I'm never going to know what being in combat is really like. So there isn't any situation I can think of where I think I'd be comfortable with someone saying, "My trauma and my symptoms are pretty much the same as combat-ptsd". If you weren't in combat, then no, it's not even close. Shutup, sit down, and have some goddamn respect!!

Thing is that until I experience actually being in a cult, I have no idea whether my assumptions about what that's like are even remotely close. Same deal with rape, kidnapping, combat, etc etc. We might think "I've read a lot about it, and it feels like my experience", but we could be waaay off. And we wouldn't know how wrong we are. We can't know till we've been there.

I think that in general, yeah, flexibility and nuances in language is great, helpful, interesting, builds connections, etc etc.

But if I'm trying to understand my trauma experience, and coming to a place of accepting the reality, I think I'd err on the side of definitions. What is a cult? What is kidnapping? What is rape? Is that what happened to me? Yes or no.

I think...!

 

[Air]

the person describing the small mound of dirt has never seen a mountain. And therefore is being insensitive and disrespectful to those who have scaled Mt Everest. Not to mention extremely arrogant in assuming that they have some "basic" understanding of mountains.

Okay I know I said I wouldn't respond, but come on, of course it wouldn't be offensive to people who scaled Mt. Everest. If I saw that person who only ever saw a pile of dirt climb a 20 meter hill and exclaim that it was like he was on top of a mountain I'd be fine with it. I'd tell him a mountain is like a hundred times taller, but he still definitely has the basic idea. I've climbed mountains (none like Mt. Everest, but they still qualify) and I wouldn't be the slightest bit offended at all.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Maybe some people are like, "Meh, you wanna call your experience cult-ish, that actually doesn't effect me".

I never heard that "joke", if it can be called that (from how it sounds anyway). Im not tolerant to any such "jokes". The ones that hurt others, or make fun of others, or the like, arent cool with me at all!

 

[Sighs]

I was walking through the room once where some teenage boys were playing some "combat" style video game. One of the characters said "We've got company boys!" and a firefight broke out. I thought that was so ludicrous that I telephoned my father (also a combat veteran) and asked him if he had ever experienced someone announcing enemy in such a laconic fashion. He laughed and laughed and said no way - you always - without fail - called out "Contact! Contact! Contact!" followed by as many expletives as you could before the gunfire drowned you out.

I later heard the Redgum song "19" and the lyrics "Someone called out "Contact!" and the bloke behind me swore".

Later still, my partner was having a horse riding lesson and the instructor told him to "take up the contact" and I saw his whole body stiffen and his knuckles went white on the reins.

No question that language defines experience. @Ragdoll Circus - it is more than semantics for you - its your need to understand your experience. I applaud you for the hard work you are doing to be able to accurately describe your trauma.

@Air - again, you are missing the point. Was your mountain climbing traumatic? Has is left you so debilitated you couldn't work? Couldn't have a successful relationship? Take it away from your example. Do you think my vet is not offended by a bunch of pretty boy footballers being called warriors? Do you think someone who had lost all their family in the Holocaust would be offended if I said I was sweating like a Jew in a freight train?

Your attitude seems to be "I am not offended (although this does not relate to trauma for me) therefore you should not be offended (despite the fact that this relates to trauma for you).

For rape survivors like @theshadowoftheliving, saying "I was so totally raped in that video game hahahaha" is massively offensive and if you can't understand that I don't know how to explain it to you.

 

[Sighs]

but he still definitely has the basic idea.

That's like saying if you've stubbed your toe once you have the basic idea of what it feels like to have your leg amputated.

The whole reason this presses people's button - clearly it does mine - is the breathtaking arrogance that some piss ant experience you've had somehow equates to Criterion A Trauma. And my increasingly frustrated responses are because: It. Does. Not. Even. Come. Within. The. Same. Universe.

Crit A Trauma causes shifts in the brain's structure. Again, its like saying - oh yeah - I banged my head once so I totally know what its like living with an acquired brain injury.

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

[Air]

Do you think someone who had lost all their family in the Holocaust would be offended if I said I was sweating like a Jew in a freight train?

For rape survivors like @theshadowoftheliving, saying "I was so totally raped in that video game hahahaha" is massively offensive and if you can't understand that I don't know how to explain it to you.

I'm sure in both these circumstances it could be quite upsetting as it would bring back unwanted memories of the experience, but I don't believe that there is a rational basis for claiming that it would have any sort of negative impact on society as a whole. Once again though, I think the difference is in intent. I doubt the person saying that they're sweating like a Jew in a freight train would say it without trying to be offensive, whereas the person saying they were raped in a game probably would not be trying to offend anyone. We can't be sure that anything we say will not offend someone, so what we can do is try and avoid that intention and not say things around people who would obviously be offended (so I would avoid using that metaphor around a rape victim, and I would definitely avoid the freight train thing around someone who had Jewish relatives die in the holocaust).

That's like saying if you've stubbed your toe once you have the basic idea of what it feels like to have your leg amputated

That is what I'm saying, yes. Someone who has received a minor leg injury can empathize with someone who had an amputated limb. I can empathize with my friend's more severe migraines because of my own, people who have had strong headaches can empathize with mine, and with a bit of a description I can get someone who has only ever had mild headaches to empathize, so long as they are interested in doing so.

 

[Freedomfighter]

2 recent overlapping threads have opened up a fascinating and confusing issue for me.

My abuse,...

Abuse in different situations actually does have very similar applications. When people hear the word kidnapped they think of physical actions, but someone can be kidnapped mentally too. You can be kidnapped by your own partner if you have to live in the same house with no way out and he continually abuses you.
And of course rape is also one of those situations, most think of actually physical situations, but stalking is mental rape, over and over again.
Every day I have to face the reality of stalkers because I turned them into the authorities, only to find out that the authorities who were supposed to protect me the victim actually did not help but are now involved in actively stalking and mobbing me.
Did I get dragged off into an undisclosed location? No.
Did I get kidnapped? Yep.

 

[Ronin]

of course it wouldn't be offensive to people who scaled Mt. Everest.

You miss the point entirely.

People told you you're wrong. People told you both your assumption and the acts you're defensive of are offensive as hell. Learn to read and take a seat back, reflecting on what you're being told, before you speak on matters you don't understand.

 

[Sighs]

I would avoid using that metaphor around a rape victim

Isn't it handy that rape victims have neon signs on their heads to alert you. Oh. No wait. They don't. And you, clearly, have no concept of "rape culture" or the impact it has on society..

Someone who has received a minor leg injury can empathize with someone who had an amputated limb.

I call total utter BS on that. Are you serious? Check your dictionary.

"Empathise" def: understand and share the feelings of another

Again, I can only describe it as arrogant to assume that a stubbed toe allows you to understand and share the feelings of an amputee.

I'm guessing that @Air is young. I'm guessing whatever life experiences brought him to this site do not include Criterion A trauma. I can't think of any other explanation for his complete lack of understanding of the impact of these behaviors.

That's it. I'm out of this thread. Sorry @Ragdoll Circus - I should not have let your thread become so derailed.

 

[Ronin]

@Sighs, well done on articulating, though, thank you for your contribution, & Respect.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

I think the difference is in intent. I doubt the person saying that they're sweating like a Jew in a freight train would say it without trying to be offensive, whereas the person saying they were raped in a game probably would not be trying to offend anyone.

Saying it, no matter the intent, is offensive.

We can't be sure that anything we say will not offend someone, so what we can do is try and avoid that intention and not say things around people who would obviously be offended (so I would avoid using that metaphor around a rape victim, and I would definitely avoid the freight train thing around someone who had Jewish relatives die in the holocaust).

You can not say it at all! You cannot be 100% sure that the ones you are saying it around arent rape victims, Holocaust survivor (or kin of), or a Jew...so you dont say it at all.

Personally, neither one of those phrases would never enter my mind to say, ever!

That is what I'm saying, yes. Someone who has received a minor leg injury can empathize with someone who had an amputated limb. I can empathize with my friend's more severe migraines because of my own, people who have had strong headaches can empathize with mine, and with a bit of a description I can get someone who has only ever had mild headaches to empathize, so long as they are interested in doing so.

You are completely misunderstanding the word empathize fully. I can empathize with an amputee by saying "wow, I can see how horrible that has been for you!" All you are doing is placing yourself in their shoes and trying to see things from their point of view. "I can understand how that would be very frustrating for you", "Wow, Im sorry you had to go through that, I can see how upsetting that must of been".

It has nothing to do with having a smaller verison and then understanding because you had that smaller verison. You can never understand how an amputee feels or what their challenges are unless you too have lost a limb.

That is also the same reason Dr Phil says "I will not tell you I understand" to parent's that's lost a child because he has not.

Empathy is not sympathy, which is simply "im sorry", either. It is its own thing.