BPD Need help understanding borderline personality disorder(bpd)

[Anna]

I found this article about BPD and relationships which makes good reading.

http://www.bpdcentral.com/borderline-disorder/bpd-relationships/

I like how they refer to the impulsive aggression as the "Border Lion"

 

[Lucycat]

Lucycat, your therapist is misguiding you severely. I'm sorry, but that is the truth. Judith Herman originally cited in her hypothethis of CPTSD that it was a culmination of BPD and dissociative disorders. Judith Herman changed her mind as more came to light on this area, as she studied it further, then when Vanderkolk pulled it apart with knowns and devised DESNOS, which had the backing of Judith Herman. DESNOS shifted into the exact areas we now have in the new PTSD subtype diagnosis, being depersonalization, derealization and dissociation, beyond just symptoms, though purely based on trauma. None of those are BPD.

BPD is not about trauma,

Hi Anthony, I really appreciate the discussion and debate about this. When I was first diagnosed, the psychiatrist acknowledged that the Police might not accept CPTSD and told me if that were the case then to use PTSD. However they DID accept it, and it was never questioned in court (UK).

I do entirely get what you are saying. That BPD is 'something different'. However I too, have read a lot about it and can see where I would fit the diagnosis. I know I have recovered a lot, but in the past I would have ticked all the boxes. I am not simply being argumentative. I have a very curious mind and read a lot. I am also on the side of change. I believe that in the future more people will understand my perspective and see personality disorders in a different light to that now. I feel it is a very positive way, and that personality disorders do not need to be a lifetime sentence, but that they can be worked with and change can occur if people are open minded about the whole thing.

I fear I am taking this thread off track. I do not want to disrespect those with the diagnosis of BPD, but more give them hope that help is out there and they can change if they want to.

You say that BPD is not about trauma, and that is the common conception. However my (enlightened) psychiatrist believes it is all about trauma. We can argue that until the cows come home. I just have to believe that he is far more knowledgeable than me, with an interest in trauma, and this is what he sees.

 

[anthony]

Lucy... what was said was BPD can exist without the trauma. Trauma is not a definitive in having BPD. Please don't dismiss one over the other, which I'm sure your psychiatrist will confirm for you upon asking them.

For you, it may be all about trauma because you have endured trauma.

 

[Hashi]

Lucycat, your therapist is misguiding you severely. I'm sorry, but that is the truth... Sorry... but you're delusional to continue thinking CPTSD is a diagnosis, and that it contains BPD, and that you even have it.

Regarding CPTSD being a diagnosis, in the UK it is. DSM or no DSM, the Royal College of Psychiatrists in the UK has provided diagnostic criteria for CPTSD which are in use here. I'm not clear why Lucycat should be called delusional or her therapist called an idiot and said to be lying for referring to what is a valid diagnosis in this country.

If you think the existence of the term and criteria is wrong, I think your issue is with the RCP and not with the professionals working within its framework or their clients.

 

[anthony]

Regarding CPTSD being a diagnosis, in the UK it is. DSM or no DSM, the Royal College of Psychiatrists in the UK has provided diagnostic criteria for CPTSD which are in use here.

The UK uses the ICD, so lets discard the DSM from talk. That was outlined above already. Your country health system uses the ICD. The ICD does not contain a diagnosis for CPTSD or any other such thing. Country specific psychiatry associations unfortunately don't just make-up their own diagnoses and implement them. That is what the ICD is for, a global standardisation.

Please provide the official doctrine approved by your Government outlining where the RCP has overruled the ICD for diagnosis in this area, creating its own diagnostic criterion.

I've just looked and searched the RCP site, and cannot find anything official on CPTSD as you claim. I've only found their official publication denoting PTSD guidelines in conjunction with NHS protocols, on behalf of NICE & NCCMH, of which does not outline CPTSD as you cite: http://

I'm saying it doesn't exist, and citing the evidence to substantiate the claim. It has only ever been hypothesised and proposed, nothing further. You're claiming it does, and even your country has recognised it and claimed official criterion, yet zero evidence to substantiate this claim. There have been numerous people from the UK state this, yet zero evidence is found on it. Please provide the evidence, because nobody else seems to be able to find anything further than speculative use by a limited number of physicians who believe it exists, when the ICD does not contain it, nor have they issued an update containing it, nor is it contained in their current proposed updated version.

 

[Lucycat]

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mentalhealthinfo/problems/ptsd/posttraumaticstressdisorder.aspx

This is a leaflet on the RCP website that refers to Complex PTSD, which clearly describes it and how it is different to PTSD. You have to read almost to the bottom to find the bit about CPTSD as it is not in the index at the top. It was last updated August 2012.

 

[anthony]

Seen that... that is part of a leaflet, which is not a diagnostic criterion. It's also on the wikipedia, I have a wiki page about CPTSD on this site, none of them make it a diagnosis. Where is the official diagnostic criterion that the UK is apparently using, and is official by your NHS? If your RCP has an official diagnosis, then your NHS would recognise it. Where please?

I have also just searched your http:// website, nothing on CPTSD... being your countries official health services.

In other words... the UK is exactly the same as every other country who postulates this. The diagnosis is perpetuated from a proposed criterion set, never approved by any official mental health or national health services, nor is it legal for court or insurance purposes, because it cannot be assigned a diagnostic identification for such. It is a handful of professionals still trying to perpetuate it. Hey... they tried, but it didn't work in the sense they hoped. The UK will soon have similar to what most will have, being the new sub-type, as the ICD typically follows the DSM, and the DSM typically follows the ICD, with newly classified diagnoses.

The DSM is the first to shift on PTSD... so the ICD will follow suit based on the DSM's work.

 

[Lucycat]

[DLMURL]http://apt.rcpsych.org/content/13/5/333.full.pdf[/DLMURL]

and here is an informative article that discusses the possible connection of Complex PTSD and personality disorders.

 

[anthony]

possible connection of Complex PTSD and personality disorders.

Read... doesn't answer the question, doesn't contain a diagnosis. That is not new information, and is part of the original CPTSD hypothesis by Judith Herman. Well cited already... does not make it a legal diagnosis in the UK.

Still.... please provide the evidence that the UK has a legal diagnosis of CPTSD accredited by the RCP or NHS. So far all I see is general discussion, which most psychiatric websites have such discussion. I would expect most psychiatric based websites to have such discussion, as nobody knew which way CPTSD would go for an official basis.

 

[Anna]

Hate to be a kill joy, but this thread is supposed to be about information on borderline personality disorder not a discussion on whether complex PTSD exists or not.

I think it doesn't make sense to discuss it. If Lucycat is doing well and happy in her therapy that is all that matters. There is really no need to turn this thread into something it shouldn't be about.

 

[Lucycat]

Hi Anthony,
We both know such evidence does not (yet) exist. I am not ignoring your request, simply cannot find the answer!

I think what I find weird is your use of the word 'legal' beside definition. The diagnosis is used in current practice. I know you quote the DSM and ICD, and they don't recognise Complex PTSD, but it is still used here as a formal diagnosis. I guess because we don't have the same requirements in order to gain treatment or medical insurance it does not seem to matter.

When I posted the link to the article above, I was not trying to answer your question. Just found it interesting and thought others might too.

I know you don't accept an argument without the evidence to back it up, and that is fair enough. However it does not negate the fact that the diagnosis is used here.

 

[Lucycat]

Hate to be a kill joy, but this thread is supposed to be about information on borderline personality disorder not a discussion on whether complex PTSD exists or not.
.

Anna, you are very right.
I will quit posting on here and allow it to get back on track.
Sorry to have taken it down the wrong road...