News New Cops Told To Go Out And Cause Ptsd

[Ed Norton]

I think that those f*ckers knew damn well what they were doing. They tried hard to asphyxiate me to death. But I am strong and was barely able to breath, If I passed out then I'd be in SaintJohn The Divine in no time!

 

[joeylittle]

Positional asphyxia. They didn't choke him to death. They handcuffed him.

I think actually, the final verdict (so to speak) was, you're right, he wasn't choked to death. But the officer used a submission hold, which looked like a 'chokehold' to many, and that's what led to the idea that he was choked. Yes, his position being the primary cause makes sense.

Apparently, after he was handcuffed and the ambulance arrived, he was still breathing, although he looked dead, and there was no communication from the cops to the EMTs, so they didn't really know what they were dealing with. His heart didn't begin to arrest til in the ambulance and on the way.

He was over 400lbs, diabetic, heart disease, a host of medical problems. But to my eye, still, he did nothing to motivate a cop taking him down to the ground. I guess that was my point - I don't know how the officer in question thought that was the necessary next step. The intent seemed more driven from hate, from frustration, from racism, from anger.

 

[Ed Norton]

Yes , @joeylittle

 

[Ed Norton]

And please, I'm saying this preemptively, no one dare, say 'If they wanted me dead then I'd be dead' I have enough knowledge to know that, yes, they definitely wanted me dead! I just didn't want to die.

If I were suicidal/ homicidal, lots of them would be dead...I am an excellent chemist...but thank God and thank the fact that I have a family and my son. That's all I'll say on that...

 

[Friday]

@Ed... You know what positional asphyxia is due to medical study. Most people don't have a clue.

@joeylittle... What would you have them do? He'd completely ignored every request they made of him, then every order they issued (for over 2 minutes! which was edited out of the viral video, along with their first attempt to handcuff him), still refused to be handcuffed and was rapidly escalating.

I'm honestly curious.

With the back story being that he was accused by a bystander of assaulting them when police initially arrived on scene. Police were dispatched due to report of illegal drug activity / illegal cigarette sales, but upon arrival there is a loud and confused story about whether he assaulted someone else, or they assaulted him, or he was breaking up a fight he had no part in (some of which can be heard on both the highly edited viral video, and the entire one).

Which, is another point... If someone is accused of assault, "should" they not be arrested if they don't want to be? IMO, no. Regardless of being belligerent and rapidly escalating upon being questioned / needing to diffuse the situation... the assault charge alone would have warranted his arrest.

So they couldn't just walk away. (Although it's against policy to leave an EDP alone in a heightened state, both for their own safety and public safety. If a person cannot be calmed? It's either arrest if cause, or to the hospital for suicide eval.) He had to be brought into custody. When a person refuses to come willingly? What's the next step?

 

[Ed Norton]

I honestly don't know, because I told my psychologist that it's too much and refuse to follow up on the story.

Well at least he doesn't have PTSD
Riddere il pagliaccio :(

 

[DharmaGirl]

And I don't think that I could find a way to make light of a 10 year-old quadriplegic on a vent for life, no matter how stess evoking that may be.

Ed, trying to be "not that doc" in an ER setting is hard. I was the caring and warm nurse, and everyone would jump on me for treating people like hurt, frightened people should be. It's a culture. I wish you luck, and I know you will be warm and caring, you can't be anything else.

 

[Ed Norton]

That was sweet @DharmaGirl my aunt is an ER nurse, so I know it's not easy. But let them go their way and I shall go mine. Also, as you know, if you're judgemental in medicine you'll be bitter and burnt out. I won't judge them, leads to lot of misdiagnosis too. I won't let the creeps get me down. I promise not to lose my heart. I know a wonderful pediatric intensive care doctor, with a heart of gold who I'll be shadowing soon. I think that I'll take my leadership from him.

Thank you for sharing your wisdom and kindness

 

[Neverthesame]

I will keep this brief, as this is one those "I ain't touching this with a 20' barge pole" kind of discussions. I also think it's safe to say I haven't done near enough research on this either.

I saw the (probably viral version) video. I won't comment on what I didn't see or can't have known. But I thought to myself, immediately after the police put the guy down to cuff him. As he started shouting "I can't breathe, I can't breathe.". Is how often people say that, or "oww, I have a broken arm!" Or, "I have a bad back!" or any number of excuses as to why they shouldn't be face down in the pavement after physically resisting a police officer's instructions to comply. The other thought I had was, "if you can speak, you can breathe.". While it turned out to be something else very unfortunate, the arresting officers likely had no idea that the guy was in serious trouble. I am also aware that it is not uncommon for people to feign unconsciousness while being arrested. I have seen it personally myself.

What happened afterwards I don't know, other than what I read here. Nor do I really want to debate on it, but that's what I thought when I saw that.

I think the whole thing is very sad, irregardless of what who's intentions were with what, or whom. A man died a tragic death, over something silly. It's just sad.

 

[anthony]

It's not the guns!!!! :banghead:

You're in denial ED if you think that. The mentality of "guns don't kill people" is complete bullshit. You're in denial. People kill people, absolutely, because they have easy access to tools that easily kill another person.

Tell two people to fight to the death, see what happens.

Now give two people a gun each and tell them only one walks away alive, see what happens.

It's easy to pull a trigger when given the exact same choice as to instead have to use your hands, or even a knife.

A gun makes it simple. Easy as baking a pie. Guns kill people unnecessarily.

Give a depressed, suicidal kid who wants to take as many with him as possible his hands and knives only -- see how many he takes with him.

Now make available a gun in easy reach -- compare the outcome.

Guns kill people ED... you're in denial buddy.

You have irrational arguments to counter the fact -- guns make it easy to kill people.

 

[joeylittle]

What would you have them do?

I appreciate the question.

I think it's to do with their ability to control the escalation. And yes, I'm going to expect them to be better at it than the average bear, even though I actually don't know if it's included in the training. But as soon as you realize that you've got a pre-escalated situation (I don't know if it was the cops that had been involved with him before, but from his dialogue, the cops kept showing up with 'false' accusations) - you aren't going to win by topping.
The best thing to do, when someone is already upset and on a tear and the environment is tense is to create the appearance of a one-on-one (I know all those other cops can't just leave the scene, but there are ways to appear respectfully distant), let the person talk, listen, and use that time to run scenarios in your own head.

Which, is another point... If someone is accused of assault, "should" they not be arrested if they don't want to be? IMO, no. Regardless of being belligerent and rapidly escalating upon being questioned / needing to diffuse the situation... the assault charge alone would have warranted his arrest.

See, I think because there was no clear evidence/indication of whether the assault happened or not, they needed to spend even more time just uncovering how things went down. And you can get that info when you approach every person as if they are in the right, not in the wrong.

So yes, if the end result needs to be, people hurt people and laws were broken, and at least one person is going to booking - try and get there as cleanly and as calmly as possible. It's not your job as law enforcement to win the argument out there on the street - and that's what a lot of the over-talking looks like to me - it's the cops refusing to use low-status as a tactic.

So they couldn't just walk away. (Although it's against policy to leave an EDP alone in a heightened state, both for their own safety and public safety. If a person cannot be calmed?

You just have to try and calm them first, is all. Telling someone to 'calm down' by talking loud and on top of what they are saying will never, ever calm someone down.

He had to be brought into custody. When a person refuses to come willingly? What's the next step?

They didn't give themselves enough time to suss out whether he'd come willingly - so it's hard to say that he wouldn't have. He clearly believed (or was 100% committed to acting like) he was not guilty of a crime. So, if you can get them to understand that it needs to go to the next location in order to get sorted, and everyone needs to come - just suspend their understanding of the outcome - that can work (it's definitely good with mental health patients resisting hospitalization, I'm just assuming it works on anyone who is deeply afraid of what might happen to them).

Or, you find that despite best efforts, it's just getting louder, and louder, and louder, and you can't break up the crowd, and he will not stop shouting and panicking, and it's on the verge of riot - and the guy is huge - even if you have the training to take him down physically, it's gonna be a mess, which means there might be injuries, which means he's gonna go to the hospital anyway. Taser?

As you can see, by the time it gets to the paragraph, above, I'm out of my depth. But what I do feel very, very certain about is that there were no effective attempts to de-escalate the situation. I feel moderately certain that the police were making some assumptions about what happened based on prior knowledge or just on experience - and that was causing them to have an appearance of not listening. Personally, I think they weren't listening (though I've no proof of that), and their own frustration was rising because they perceived their status as not being respected.

And then, somehow, they had had enough.

I hope I'm not sounding like I think I could do the job oh-so-much better. I could do the talking part better. And what all these quick, devastating strikes have in common is that the talking part doesn't even happen. Yelling at someone creates immense confusion, they really can't hear what is being said, they hear tone and volume first. That's communication 101.

 

[Ed Norton]

Well, they also protect people. I live in NY, where guns are practically banned, and many people die from gun violence. But whether or not I'm in denial. We still have our constitutional rights here. It's not gonna change. That's the price we pay for having the Second Amendment.

China also has the highest per capita number of executions and I'm, mostly, against the death penalty, So I don't know if they're the best example to cite.

I rather have a gun than rely on police to protect me, because from what I have seen they'll just laugh over my dead body. In NY, the only people with guns are criminals, including many of the police.
When I did carry, I only intended on using it on someone else with a gun. I've been in fist fights with my gun on my person. Never fired a shot. But you don't bring a knife to a gunfight and you don't go unarmed into battle, The vast majority of gun owners are peaceful. I think that psychotic /psychopathic people shouldn't have them, but they do, I guess everyone dies at some time. People tend to be pushed in front of subway trains by psychotic people here anyways.

Personally, if I were a criminal I'd prefer PETN, because nothing resist the real meaning of the force of explosives, that's actually the name of the equation...'the real meaning of the force of explosives' :)