Relationship New girlfriend

[Hojay]

Thank you all for commenting. This is a tough one for sure.

That statement is meaningless anymore.

Seems like it, no? Maybe I'm old school, but I don't go around talking about "love of my life" as if it were nothing. And I'm sure not going out attaching myself to someone new after having just lost said "love of my life." But maybe that's just me.

@Friday, I appreciate your angle here. And a lot of it makes sense...when applied to coping with a normal relationship and its normal conclusion. I think when you've spent years in relationship with an untreated mental illness, concepts like jealousy and what's "normal" and to be expected after a breakup go out the window. After years of this, really what you're doing is trying to take a step back and see the reality of him and the relationship. That's hard to do when your sense of reality was always up for debate during the relationship, and when it keeps getting called into question by developments like this.

The trick here, I’d say is to look at the denial piece. If part of you has been in denial that the relationship IS over, of course it seems like a great big huge betrayal

I think you misread the context of my denial. What I meant was that I was in deep, deep denial about the severity of his condition, as well as his prognosis without treatment. When you spend your time minimizing, relativizing, and making excuses for an untreated mental illness, you invariably start looking for the problem elsewhere...yourself. So in this situation, with him being in a new relationship, my denial about his condition causes me to believe he's capable of being a good partner, just not to me. Without that denial, I'm fairly clear on the fact that it wasn't me and a new person won't miraculously turn him into something else. It's that denial I have to work on.

That it’s been months and you still think you have your finger on the pulse of what’s best for him, what he really needs, what’s going on in his life?

It's somewhat beyond thinking I know what's best for him. It's trying, in hindsight, to work through all the moving pieces of being in relationship with an untreated mental illness and trying to somehow make these pieces fit into some coherent, sensical whole. I can only work with what I saw and heard from him during those years, and him starting something new so soon after basically negates everything I saw and heard from him. That that would leave a supporter confused and doubting the whole of it I think is pretty understandable. What you're left with after years of this is the unsettling feeling that you never really knew who or what you were dealing with. Information like this is a new piece in the puzzle that needs to be fit in somewhere, somehow. And that's what I'm struggling with.

Would that be a bad thing? For either of you? Or does he have to be unhappy for you to be happy?

Of course I don't want him to be miserable. The opposite, actually. But seeing how very, very, utterly gut-wrenchingly hard it was for him to be "close to someone," you can see how it might be a tad confusing that'd he'd go at it again so soon. What were the panic attacks about, then? What was his avoidance about, then? How bad could it have been if he's willing to do it all again so soon, then? These are tortuous questions.

You can't "avoid" ptsd. And you can only hide the symptoms for so long. Then it all comes back and they have to move on to continue to "avoid" it all. Again.

Avoidance was the biggest issue in the last year of our relationship, and actually I believe one of the main reasons for its ultimate dissolution. After ending treatment, his avoidance turned into a stone wall and I wouldn't have it. So there it was. It's likely a new relationship will help him avoid further, if only by making him feel in control and competent for the time being. If only to help him tell himself he wasn't the problem, I was. I don't know.

Personally. I never wanted to be with someone who didn't want to be with me. Their loss.

You're right. On good days, that's my mindset. I think the whole relationship was so emotionally, intellectually, and psychologically confusing, I'll need some time making sense of it thoroughly before being able to arrive at this mindset for good.

 

[shatter eyes]

It is not you.
From a guy i will tell you that when i avoid or hide or say i need be alone i truly need that space. When i break up it is because i felt i am a burden so i will go at life alone.

Then lonliness kicks in and the coldness creeps in. Anyone showing interest will flood my brain with feel goods. And that is a distraction away from myself.

Even though i may have a new women my heart still longs for her and wish that i could do better for her.

It is not you. It is him..it is me... or the therapist would say it is ptsd.

 

[scout86]

It's trying, in hindsight, to work through all the moving pieces of being in relationship with an untreated mental illness and trying to somehow make these pieces fit into some coherent, sensical whole.

Can you see the problem with that? That, pretty much by definition, having an untreated mental illness means that your thought processes DON'T make sense to most people? When I think about it, some days that's totally true, even if you ARE getting treatment. That's why they use words like "disorder" and "illness" as descriptors.

I suppose that's part of the way denial is a factor. It might seem like it's a choice. It's not exactly a choice. Seeking out help is a choice, for sure. Experiencing things differently? Not so much.

 

[Sweetpea76]

@Hojay I know you have to mourn the relationship... you were with him a long time, and you knocked yourself out learning about PTSD and care taking. That’s not only a relationship, but it’s a habit, even a lifestyle. However, have you taken a step back and realized how much calmer and more peaceful things are in YOUR life now? No ranting, no blaming, no yelling... just for starters. What does that feel like?

 

[Hojay]

@shatter eyes thank you for sharing that. I realize there may be more heartache behind the whole pattern than meets the eye. It's heartbreaking, on a meta-level, how much pain and suffering there is to go around...on both sides.

Can you see the problem with that? That, pretty much by definition, having an untreated mental illness means that your thought processes DON'T make sense to most people?

Oh yes, I see the absurdity here! And even that realization helps to create a picture that makes sense. It's definitely a way denial is a factor here. Actually, it goes to the core of it.

Throughout our relationship, as I was trying to make sense of the nonsensical, he (at some point) started denying there was anything wrong, nonsensical, or questionable to begin with. This fed my already existent propensity for being in denial about the severity of what was happening, all in order to be able to blame the only thing I could control, myself.

No ranting, no blaming, no yelling... just for starters. What does that feel like?

Thank you for this, sweetpea76. It's really helpful to think along these lines. It feels good, very good when I remind myself of how much constant, low-grade (often high-grade) stress I was under, and how peaceful things are now. And I can access that relief at times. But to be honest, that feeling is often overshadowed by feelings of guilt and shame. Over the last year, he didn't miss an opportunity to tell me I was the cause and reason for his yelling, blaming, and ranting. If only I didn't x, he wouldn't panic. If only I wouldn't z, he could calm down. If only I wouldn't y, he'd be fine. Where before (while he was getting help and working actively on his stuff) he self-reflected to understand it wasn't me, he eventually switched and stopped taking responsibility. I guess it wore down my resolve to stay present with myself and eventually...I started believing him. So that's what comes up when I think of the yelling and blaming...I screwed up. He wasn't mentally ill, I was just too much. Denial, denial, denial...

 

[Sweetpea76]

So the person with mental illness gets to dictate your self worth? f*ck that right in the ear.

 

[Friday]

when applied to coping with a normal relationship and its normal conclusion. I think when you've spent years in relationship with an untreated mental illness, concepts like jealousy and what's "normal" and to be expected after a breakup go out the window.

I wouldn’t say so... but i’m coming from the perspective of having been married for 11 years.

And that the vast majority of my relationships haven’t been “normal” relationships. Good, for the most part, certainly. A few bad ones. A couple of abusive ones.

My experience is that -if anything- normal human emotions are more of an issue, not less. Because you’ve been in it for longer, at much more extreme levels.

When you spend your time minimizing, relativizing, and making excuses for an untreated mental illness, you invariably start looking for the problem elsewhere...yourself.

Exactly, actually.

And you’re still doing that, from an outside perspective. Blaming yourself for why he’s not with you, minimizing/relativising/making excuses about the relationship being over (or who he’s with now being put up on this pedestal, back & forth questioning how much is the disorder bs how much is him, knowing intellectually it’s over but responding emotionally as if it’s not, you’re not “allowed” the normal human emotional reactions to ending, etc.)... it’s the knee jerk habit of denial bleeding over into all areas, creating a lot of emotional shockwaves & unsold ground to be stood upon... instead of the solid “Its over. It’s sad, but of course he’s going to live his life & I’m going to live mine.” That’s why I said to look at the denial piece. Habits of years rarely vanish overnight. So when you know you’ve been steeped in denial up to your eyebrows? It’s not uncommon to find yourself wading through it for months -and even years- later. In all kinds of places you never expected to be. Now I’m not saying it is denial, just that a) it looks like it & b) when that’s something you know you’ve struggled with in the past, it’s a trick to look there first to see if it’s still in play.

But seeing how very, very, utterly gut-wrenchingly hard it was for him to be "close to someone," you can see how it might be a tad confusing that'd he'd go at it again so soon. What were the panic attacks about, then? What was his avoidance about, then? How bad could it have been if he's willing to do it all again so soon, then? These are tortuous questions.

Don’t take my word for it... You say it yourself just a little bit further on. A new relationship is almost the exact opposite of close. All the appearance without substance.

It's likely a new relationship will help him avoid further, if only by making him feel in control and competent for the time being.

It feels close, especially that first year, when in reality there’s a lot of intimacy with very little knowledge or understanding; and oodles of control as people are choosing and directing how much -and what- to share with others, and for liars as others believe them when they say this is from that, that from this, because the new person doesn’t have the experience to contradict what they’re being told.

And most relationships never make it past that 6-12 month mark, where it’s all bright shining potential, hopes & dreams. Even then, so many people can’t wrap their heads around the day to day reality really being “them”. Their fantasy of who the person could be in those first few months of falling in love is so strong -as they feel like they know them, without yet knowing them- that they cling to their idea of who they want them to be, no matter how much evidence to the contrary conflicts with their hopes.

You see it in here, in these forums / in relationships with cyclic and reactive disorders, even more so than in the outside world. I think a lot of that is because people have the excuse of a disorder. The whole “it’s not them, not the real them.” Yep. That IS the real them. Part of it, anyway. But -also as you say- the trap of not understanding how much their disorder is part of them. You have the benefit of years in a relationship to see exactly that. You can’t excuse the parts you don’t like by blaming the disorder, living in denial about both how much that disorder affects them, and how much it IS the real them. That fell away for you, although you’re still struggling with reconciling what you wanted and what was. But people in that first blush / honeymoon year of a relationship don’t have the benefit of actual closeness to compare & contrast with. Everything is still new & shiny for them. The work begins later. IF you’re allowed in. And not kept at 1 arms distance (or broken up with before it rises to the level of closeness being unavoidable.

Being in a new relationship doesn’t bring with it the same amount or kind of work an established relationship brings. It’s new. It’s shiny. It’s a distraction. And for people with avoidance issues, it lets them avoid a whole helluva lot.

So does the fact that he was willing to attempt a long term relationship with YOU. It’s far more common for people with avoidance issues to relationship hop. Using a series of new relationships as a buffer against their own issues. It takes something big, and usually something very real, to be worth losing that buffer. You were worth it. Regardless of how things turned out in the end. You were someone worth trying to be with, for real. That things ended doesnt change that.

Nor does whatever he does next. Maybe it will be a series of short lived honeymoon relationships wrapped up in the thrill of distraction and avoidance. Maybe what he had with you primed him to want K2 & Everest. Shrug. No way to know. The lessons he took from the relationship? Are his own. And will be very different from yours. The lessons you take, and where your life goes from here is what matters.

 

[EveHarrington]

And I'm sure not going out attaching myself to someone new after having just lost said "love of my life."

Yeah......ex that said that about me had someone new within a month. Sigh.

You are being healthy by taking time to yourself. It gives you time to grieve, to process, to grow.

Relationship bouncing results in nothing more than stuffing emotions and ignoring them. Not healthy imho.

 

[Sighs]

When you spend your time minimizing, relativizing, and making excuses for an untreated mental illness, you invariably start looking for the problem elsewhere...yourself.

Yup. Hear you on this one. If it helps, I have seen my ex moving on with a new woman within literally weeks of me leaving as validation that it is NOT - and was NEVER - me that was the problem. The fact that he treats women as replaceble is evidence of that.

Hugs!

 

[Hojay]

I just wanted to poke my head back in here and say thank you for all your kind responses. I needed to take a few days, digest this.

In the meantime, something quite revealing took place: We were in touch briefly. Stupid me thought it's time to have an eye-level conversation, heal through that at least a little bit, move on with kindness and a new status quo. When I briefly, respectfully explained my confusion, his rage unleashed. Plain as day gaslighting, right-fighting, blaming, and invalidation. Then he closed it all down. Again, I was left questioning my own reality, sanity, rights, feelings, and assessments. It was all just too unkind.

So here it is. And clear as day, now, today, I see what I've been dealing with for the last years. This wasn't run of the mill PTSD. This was more. My denial kept me from seeing all that clearly. So now it's about my own cognitive dissonance, merging what I saw with what I thought I was seeing; what I've since learned about him and what he wanted me to know about him (a few days ago I learned some things about him that make me question, not only who he was, but how conscious his behavior may actually be.)

I also need to start trying to forgive myself, as best as I can, for participating in it. Yeah, codependence comes in many, subtle, unconventional, and all as equally damaging forms. To all new and old supporters, beware.

Tomorrow I'll be speaking with a counselor specialized in helping "loved ones" (read, "subjects") of cluster B personality disordered people. I think that may shed some light and help me make sense of this in some coherent way.

So the person with mental illness gets to dictate your self worth?

Yes, when you put it so plainly, how sad right? That's the way in which I feel brainwashed. But I do take responsibility for this--for letting it get this far, for not respecting my own boundaries despite my best intentions.

I think a lot of that is because people have the excuse of a disorder. The whole “it’s not them, not the real them.” Yep. That IS the real them. Part of it, anyway. But -also as you say- the trap of not understanding how much their disorder is part of them.

THIS! And I wish there were a giant banner stating this on top of the supporter section. I've done it, and I've seen others do it here too: using the illness as an excuse. I almost wish I hadn't known the half of what I learned about him, his trauma, and PTSD. I wouldn't have had such a handy, all-purpose explanation and excuse for blatantly sick and hurtful patterns. It can be a very useful manipulation tool, this diagnosis. And a great shield to hind behind for supporters.

Relationship bouncing results in nothing more than stuffing emotions and ignoring them. Not healthy imho.

It's not, isn't it? I'm still going back and forth between "it was me. I caused this" and "He's disordered" so I'm not yet super firm in my conviction that this just can't be healthy behavior to hop to a new relationship right now. But everything I know, have seen, have heard about him by now just makes it very obvious that he's back to hiding, glossing over, and seeking someone else to save him and make him happy. That's what he did with me--that's where I feel used--and I can't see that changing any time soon. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. I really don't care of he gets well at this point.

I have seen my ex moving on with a new woman within literally weeks of me leaving as validation that it is NOT - and was NEVER - me that was the problem. The fact that he treats women as replaceble is evidence of that.

Yes, exactly. And it makes me feel sick to my stomach that I could have misread him and us to this extent. I really don't know what it was all for and what it was all about. It's an incredibly disorienting feeling, which I'm sure will pass with time. You know what it's like. Ugh.

 

[blackemerald1]

I really don't know what it was all for and what it was all about.

Hojay - I'd put money on this all being about him, what he wanted, what he could get. That's his problem and not your fault.

 

[Hojay]

I'd put money on this all being about him, what he wanted, what he could get.

It looks like it, sadly. I don't want to be all radical, black and white, turn him into a monster. I don't think he's all that. Then again, I don't want to continue protecting him--if even only in my own mind--from the severity of his behavior. I'm hoping the counselor can shed some light, help me grasp just what I was dealing with. But yeah, right now, it all feels manipulative, calculated, and so very very sick. I don't know...