Pity Parties

[Shellbell]

Why isn't telling someone what you see to be the truth not helping them?

If you had quoted more of my post I did state that it is about the intention of the use of the term. Did the user of the term truly mean to help? Or was it their own (and therefore selfish) reaction of annoyance that prompted their need to use the term.

People so often feel the need to 'make people see the truth', or 'have their say' - whether is causes more harm or not. It would take someone pretty strong to have that term directed at them and sit up and realise that they are in a pit of self pity and need to make an effort to climb out of it. Not everyone on this forum is strong enough to hear that as a positive and use it beneficially.

I chose to air on the side of caution and use terms more easily and positively absorbed - then I know I may have the desired effect. If I felt that someone is just refusing to listen to any advice - then maybe I am not the person that is able to help them.

 

[Philippa]

People so often feel the need to 'make people see the truth', or 'have their say' - whether is causes more harm or not. It would take someone pretty strong to have that term directed at them and sit up and realise that they are in a pit of self pity and need to make an effort to climb out of it. Not everyone on this forum is strong enough to hear that as a positive and use it beneficially.

Interesting point there.

I think it is a natural human compulsion to want to try and help someone, but without taking into account exactly where they are at, and how fragile or unable to cope with truth they are at the time, it is very easy to just decide that your 'tough love' approach, which works so well with you, is right for this other person.

There are many people who respond well to the tough love approach, and others who respond better to more gentle ways of motivating them or assisting them along. I think taking peoples feelings into account when they are suffering is important. I have been on the other side of this before, and with people thinking they knew what I needed, and it jus tmade things much worse for me.

The whole thing about words and people choosing how they let things affect them or not, is moot when a person is very traumatized. I think the rhyme "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me" is a crock of BS to be honest. I used to be in the camp of people who thought this was an empowered way of being, but I have since changed my stance on this matter.

Words hurt, and the intention behind words, as in, with the intention to express frustration, annoyance and disgust even, at a person suffering who isn't moving forward when you think they should, does nothing but add to their pain.

It's a precarious thing really. With some people it might be exactly what they need, to be told they are having a pity party and it won't be tolerated...but it's never ok to cause pain to someone just because you are feeling annoyed with them, or frustrated.

I chose to air on the side of caution and use terms more easily and positively absorbed - then I know I may have the desired effect. If I felt that someone is just refusing to listen to any advice - then maybe I am not the person that is able to help them.

Maybe they aren't ready to hear what you have to say at that time, but might think about it later, when they are able to process your words better, when they aren't suffering so much? SO much depends on the individual I think.

 

[Shellbell]

I agree Philippa and tough love definitely has it's uses and is needed at times. But you really need to know the person well and really know where they are at to know whether tough love will really help.

And how well do we know each other on a forum? Each person on here is only putting out there on the forum a certain percentage of what is really going on for them. So if chose to decide when I felt it necessary to tell someone they were having a pity party (or something else of a negative and emotive manner), I could be saying something potentially quite damaging to that person.

It's not about walking on egg shells. It's about helpng the person in the most beneficial manner and I believe that to be sticking to positive wording with regard to forum members . It is far more likely to be beneficial and helpful. Even positive wording won't always be accepted by the person - but is more likely to be digested positively at a later date.

 

[intothelight]

Been reading this thread and just going to through out my two cents. (Like this is unusual :p)

1. Quite frankly, depending upon a person's state of mind and their personality, different people are going to take different words however they choose. It is entirely individual, and if they are stuck in a bad place emotionally, yes the term "pity party", "get over it" etc. can either make them angry, more depressed, or quite frankly fuel their own negative personalizations to spiral further down.

2. But no one else is responsible for another's feelings, state of mind or personality. No one should have to walk on eggshells around another person that is close to them. I think when you are in a sufferer/supporter relationship, each knows the other well enough to know what is or is not needed at the time. Truth is always best, and how the message is delivered is completely between the messenger and the recipient. It is not the "words" it is the intent and how they are perceived that can either help or hurt.

3. Most of us on this site have PTSD due to unhealthy and harmful relationships: child abuse, sexual abuse, domestic violence, etc. Having PTSD makes a person ill equipped, or quite frankly, unable to have a healthy relationship at certain points in time, the majority of the time, or for some all the time. Those around us can also loose their ability to maintain a healthy relationship due to the "fear" of setting us off or aggravating symptoms. That is why using this forum as a means to interact with different types of people and "test" relationship skills makes it so valuable. Worrying too much about what is said or how a person will react keeps both the sufferer and the supporter from overcoming interpersonal and relationship skills that are damaged.

Bottom line is that all of us are here because of PTSD. Sufferer or supporter, this disorder takes its toll on both. The purpose or the goal should be to get better. That means better as an individual, better at setting boundaries, better at communicating, and better at relationships. There will always be those who will choose not to get better and that is their choice. There will be some who "won't get it" until they are further on in their recovery, or sometimes just having a better day, and then the light will come on.

Truth without malice is nothing to be afraid of. One thing I read about a lot here is people feeling like they "don't know who they are", "lost their old selves" etc. Start by being, and expressing yourself from your heart. Learn new skills and try new things.

Sometimes I benefit greatly from "raw" truth. I call it "board therapy", because it feels like a 2 X 4 upside the head, and I need it to dislodge my head from my ass. I may not initially like it, but who does like having a negative behavior, pointed out to them? It is the person's choice to either pout, make excuses or use it to make a change.

If certain phrases really bother an individual to the extent that I have seen on this forum, then you are really in trouble. This is a very safe place and the majority of people here are very cognizant of PTSD symptoms and how they affect a person's frame of mind. If you can't handle it here then you are in real trouble out in the world. Think about that a bit, and whether you are a supporter or a sufferer, use this as a place to heal. If not, leave as no one makes anyone stay here and allow the rest of us to grow and get better.

 

[Philippa]

What you do with it is up to you. I honestly don't care if someone has themselves a pity party of not... I as the administrator of this site, I actually do get to have very much a say if it starts dragging other people into someones pile of self shit, that they have every right in the world to sit within. Just not upon this website.

Please don't confuse the two scenarios.

And yes anthony, as administrator of this site you have the power and all that. I'm certainly not challenging you on that point.

I am simply offering what I consider to be useful insight into how I think different people process and respond to strategies like telling them they are throwing a pity party, in the hope that it might make someone think in a new way about it...maybe even you? I think opening up to different viewpoints is important in improving how we deal with other people who are suffering in life.

Of course you are not obliged to take any of it on, especially if you think I am playing word games with you, when I am actually trying to make a relevant point. I have no control over what you choose to do with what I offer.

 

[Philippa]

I agree Philippa and tough love definitely has it's uses and is needed at times. But you really need to know the person well and really know where they are at to know whether tough love will really help.And how well do we know each other on a forum?

Yeah, exactly. We only have a smidgeon of who that person is. As I've learned from real experience though, even our parents who are supposed to know us teh most can be inadequate in knowing how to speak to us in a way that will be helpful. That's the parents who aren't completely abusive that is.

Each person on here is only putting out there on the forum a certain percentage of what is really going on for them. So if chose to decide when I felt it necessary to tell someone they were having a pity party (or something else of a negative and emotive manner), I could be saying something potentially quite damaging to that person.

That's how I feel about it too. It's such a sensitive thing, and walking on eggshells isn't the way to go either, but neither is just assuming you know enough about that person to know what the best strategy is for them from only knowing them online.

It's not about walking on egg shells. It's about helpng the person in the most beneficial manner and I believe that to be sticking to positive wording with regard to forum members . It is far more likely to be beneficial and helpful. Even positive wording won't always be accepted by the person - but is more likely to be digested positively at a later date.

It looks like we're on the same wavelength in this regard.

 

[p-no]

For a mental health community, wanting to promote growth from the grips of a debilitation illness, its pretty messed up that people can't offer their opinion with being attacked

I honestly think that it is quite natural because this is a mental health community that this is why people have the trouble with things said and received -- not only because but also because.

 

[Shellbell]

Well my opinion is just as valid as that of an administrator or moderator, but I see where this is heading, so it's my time to leave this thread.

 

[Philippa]

Been reading this thread and just going to through out my two cents. (Like this is unusual :p)

1. Quite frankly, depending upon a person's state of mind and their personality, different people are going to take different words however they choose. It is entirely individual, and if they are stuck in a bad place emotionally, yes the term "pity party", "get over it" etc. can either make them angry, more depressed, or quite frankly fuel their own negative personalizations to spiral further down.

So, isn't that incentive to use a better choice of words? That isn't walking on eggshells it's jus tbeing sensitive to the fact that you don't know the person well enough to know how they will be affected by those words...and lets face it, most people don't respond well to "get over it".

2. But no one else is responsible for another's feelings, state of mind or personality. No one should have to walk on eggshells around another person that is close to them. I think when you are in a sufferer/supporter relationship, each knows the other well enough to know what is or is not needed at the time. Truth is always best, and how the message is delivered is completely between the messenger and the recipient. It is not the "words" it is the intent and how they are perceived that can either help or hurt.

No, no one is responsable for anyone else feelings, state of mind or personality. No one should have to walk on eggshells around them, and the sufferer/supporter relationship will have that intimate knowledge of what to say at the right time, if they know each other well enough, hopefully...but others on a forum don't have that level of understanding.

I'm not sure I agree that it's not the words, but only the intent that matters. Even if the intent is good it can still cause a lot of upset and distress if the person is not in the right frame of mind to be able to digest what is being told to them. If a person is not suffering at the time, and they aren't traumatized then yeah, upsetting them with the truth is something that they will be able to appreciate, even if they don't like to hear it...whereas, for someone who is really hurting, I'm not sure hurting them more to be truthful is really the best approach? That's just me though.

3. Most of us on this site have PTSD due to unhealthy and harmful relationships: child abuse, sexual abuse, domestic violence, etc. Having PTSD makes a person ill equipped, or quite frankly, unable to have a healthy relationship at certain points in time, the majority of the time, or for some all the time. Those around us can also loose their ability to maintain a healthy relationship due to the "fear" of setting us off or aggravating symptoms. That is why using this forum as a means to interact with different types of people and "test" relationship skills makes it so valuable. Worrying too much about what is said or how a person will react keeps both the sufferer and the supporter from overcoming interpersonal and relationship skills that are damaged.

Of course, the messenger can only go by what information they know about the person they are trying to help, and if the other person does not specifically ask for gentle assistance, then it is hard to know where they are at. It's up to the sufferer to share that they aren't in a great place right now and not sure they can handle anything too harsh.

Truth without malice is nothing to be afraid of. One thing I read about a lot here is people feeling like they "don't know who they are", "lost their old selves" etc. Start by being, and expressing yourself from your heart. Learn new skills and try new things.

There does seem to be a lot of people in fear-based mentalities here who don't push through that, which is a shame for them.

Sometimes I benefit greatly from "raw" truth. I call it "board therapy", because it feels like a 2 X 4 upside the head, and I need it to dislodge my head from my ass. I may not initially like it, but who does like having a negative behavior, pointed out to them? It is the person's choice to either pout, make excuses or use it to make a change.

I agree. I'm a person who responds to this in the same way. I think with the terms pity party though, it is often said with this tone of making the person somehow 'wrong', and that's what I find unhelpful.

If certain phrases really bother an individual to the extent that I have seen on this forum, then you are really in trouble. This is a very safe place and the majority of people here are very cognizant of PTSD symptoms and how they affect a person's frame of mind. If you can't handle it here then you are in real trouble out in the world. Think about that a bit, and whether you are a supporter or a sufferer, use this as a place to heal. If not, leave as no one makes anyone stay here and allow the rest of us to grow and get better.

I can read that the way it is meant, and agree with it. I'm not sure a person who is very traumatized, and feeling like they have no skin at all, would be able to read this without interpretting your words as saying "there is something wrong with me that I can't take the words pity party the way everyone else means them." And spiral downwards.

Of course, it can go round and round like this forever. I think the majority here are able to handle a bit of truth when it is thrown at them, but for new people that might not be the case?

 

[The Albatross]

I'm undecided on this.

But, Albatross used the argument earlier in the thread that the use of this phrase can be judged on the intent of the person using it. If you are using it as an expression or irritation, then perhaps it isn't said wholly to help the other person.

I'm not judging. I genuinely don't have an understanding of acceptable boundaries in emotive situations, which is why I might seem questioning and analytical.

Intuiting intent in a written format is dicey at best. There is no facial expression, no body language, no tone, no voice modulation, nothing our other senses can pick up. Therefore, on a written forum... I tend to give the poster the benefit of the doubt. Why I shared at some point something about what I believed about the person who uses the phrase. Are they a "well intentioned" or do I believe they are a "good willed" person to or for me? It could also be phrased, "Is this opinion from a safe person or an unsafe one?"

Personally, I have found it easier, more peaceful, and calm... to relearn some basic trust on recovery forums. We're all dealing with trust issues, and all support forums are MUTUAL AID societies. I can consciously choose and decide that in the absence of facial expression, body language, vocal tone or modulation that, when I am posting on a support forum... the person who responds is more likely than not trying to assist me and not attack me. I go with a more rational approach as my default mode now and change my perspective to deal with uncomfortable feelings.

It is a step back, a pause, a reexamination of what was communicated as well as what I was communicating. Then it is a self assessment, a check of my beliefs about the person who responded, followed by my question: "Is this a well intentioned/good willed person?" (Or is this opinion coming from a safe or an unsafe person?) Then I make a decision and move on.

I am no psychic or mind reader... I would suggest it is highly unlikely I can intuit intent in a written format by words alone. Which is why, I go through the process in the paragraph above. Face to face, I have other identifiable "tells" as to the person's intent and it becomes much much easier.

All exchanges with people are opinions... we are free to choose how we feel about what is said to us. But I know that I am sometimes capable of shortchanging myself, to my own detriment if I get tangled up in my feelings instead of listen to the message of a well intentioned (or safe) person.

 

[The Albatross]

I agree that using the term pity party is not attacking. But it isn't being nice either. It's a negative term to use that is emotive.

Emotivity the person's on the receiving end, and a choice/decision. A person stuck in prolonged cycling will tend to respond defensively to protect the "now familiar" habit or behavior... even if it is detrimental.

It is an opinion, but the user of the term cannot 'know' whether the term is correct in reference to anyone but themselves.

The user of the term postulates and proffers an opinion - it is the receiver that needs to processs and self examine and choose to accept, react/refute, or to ignore. Unless there is direct evidence that the person using that term is an unsafe or an ill willed person.

If any one of you on the support forum told me I was having a pity party, I would self assess. If my abusers did it, my decision and reaction would be completely different. It is my relational history with the communicator that determines that - experience.

I guess it all comes down to whether someone is truly trying to help the person, or just being negative for their own reasons of being annoyed, exasperated or irritated at the person, which in itself is then a selfish intention to use the term. If it is for these reasons, the person could also chose a different method to release their annyance or whatever, by just ignoring the person and moving on.

Bingo. And that person can be called out on it. The responsibility for the dialogue then shifts to the other party. But for most of us, the sad fact is that we tend to avoid uncomfortable situations or difficult discussions. We were conditioned to be fearful and anxious, or to not talk back. That's why relearning in a relatively safe environment among peers who share and understand our issues, can be such a beneficial experience. And we can take the learned skills out into our daily lives.

 

[The Albatross]

Truth without malice is nothing to be afraid of.

:tup: