Ptsd And Domestic Violence

[shimmerz]

Let me just say that Domestic Violence (DV) is NOT a symptom of PTSD.

A propensity for violence or being an alcoholic are not 'hard core, must have' symptoms of PTSD. They can be offshoots of the emotional dis-regulation components of PTSD, but so may any of the 4F's (Fight/Flight/Freeze/Fawn). DV is but one element of the 4F's that PTSD'ers MAY gravitate towards. Also, the fight component does not always get expressed through DV.

PTSD lasts a lifetime. Alcoholism and DV, even if co-morbid expressions of PTSD, do not HAVE to exist with PTSD. How then, is DV considered an intricate part of PTSD? If these elements get so tightly wrapped up together (PTSD = DV PTSD = Alcoholism) then are we not disempowering those that are using these expressions? Those with PTSD can be taught to express anger and frustration in different ways and STILL have PTSD.

does not drink but when triggered he dissociates.

Dissociation does not mean that someone is prone to violence or substance abuse. May I ask for clarification on what this statement is meant to mean? How does this add to the argument that

So no, I don't think they are two unrelated issues.

They may be related..... but DV is executed by many people that don't have PTSD and not executed by many people who do.

 

[EveHarrington]

I agree with your initial post; your follow ups, not so much.

"That is all."------ not exactly.

DV is not in the PTSD DSM criteria. DV is not a PTSD symptom per se. This is correct.

However, PTSD is an incredibly complex disorder marked by emotional disregulation. Violence is found in words and actions. I don't believe it's so simple as to say that DV and PTSD are completely unrelated and ne'r shall they meet.

I can't help but feel that this is very personal to you. That because you don't specifically act out in violent physical ways that DV can't possibly be related to PTSD. But-----why does your personal experience have to be the universal experience? Does it give you a bad name or tarnish your reputation if someone else with PTSD becomes violent?

Don't get me wrong-----I'm the last person who wants the stereotype of the violent PTSD person to persist. However, completely dis-linking the two is very much a falsehood------just at the opposite end of the black/white spectrum.

 

[gypsysoul]

"That is all."------ not exactly.

When I said, "That is all." I was referring to my rant about DV and PTSD, I wasn't saying that was all that was to it, don't assume, it only makes an ass out of u and me, right?

However, PTSD is an incredibly complex disorder marked by emotional disregulation. Violence is found in words and actions. I don't believe it's so simple as to say that DV and PTSD are completely unrelated and ne'r shall they meet.

Is DV done by someone diagnosed with PTSD? Sure. Is DV done by people who don't have PTSD? Sure. Do people with PTSD have complex behavior issues? Sure. Does that mean that they're related? No. If a combat vet has PTSD and has difficulty being at a crowded mall, the mall is a trigger, but not related to the PTSD itself. Most military members aren't at any malls while in combat. However, the mall can still be a trigger for some people. Same thing with PTSD and violence, although PTSD may have triggered a violent nature in someone, it doesn't mean that DV itself is related to PTSD. Like I said, there's a difference between smashing dishes and smashing someone's face in.

I can't help but feel that this is very personal to you.

This isn't personal to me as in I have experienced it. However, I do know women that will stay with abusive combat veterans because they feel bad that they have PTSD.

Does it give you a bad name or tarnish your reputation if someone else with PTSD becomes violent?

No. What's with the judgement? I'm not really worried about my reputation at all... I'm tired of people using PTSD, a real disease, as a reason to get away with terrible behaviors. I'm using my experience to make a point, not for you to throw back at me. I know that I'm not always clear (in writing) which is why forums don't typically peak my interest and I don't mind a friendly debate, but I don't appreciate being judged.

 

[EveHarrington]

A PTSD effect doesn't equate with permissibility. (But this seems to be the argument you're making.)

Many PTSD effects are not socially/morally acceptable.

You're IMHO arguing that in order for something to be a symptom of PTSD that essentially means that it's excusable.

Nope.

Many----dozens, hundreds, more(?)----disorders affect behavior in unfavorable ways. These are very real effects.

Don't reduce this hijacking of the mind to being a simple choice and/or a character flaw.

This will take back PTSD understanding to the days of amoebas. I'd say back to the days of the Stone Age-----but essentially that's where current understanding of PTSD lies.

Can you challenge your own belief that if something is a symptom/effect then it means the behavior is 100% permissible?

No assumptions on my part for making direct translations of your exact words. (In your first post.) I'm not an ass----- No judgement either, just honest questions for clarification.

That is all.

 

[Sighs]

Well said @EveHarrington! The myth that all combat vets are violent and abusive is one end of the spectrum. At the other is the "I'm a combat vet with PTSD and I've never hit anyone therefore the two are completely unrelated".

 

[joeylittle]

Is the upshot of this:

PTSD is not an excuse for violent behavior, including but not limited to, domestic violence.
Alcoholism is not an excuse for violent behavior, as above.
PTSD is not an excuse - or justification - for alcoholism.
Alcoholism (or any addiction) can exist in a person pre- or post- PTSD

The two may or may not be related, depending on the individual.
Neither one is an acceptable excuse, or justification, for violence of any kind.
They may need to be treated separately - depending on the individual.

?

 

[Sighs]

the mall is a trigger, but not related to the PTSD itself.

Ok - now you've totally lost me. How the hell can a trigger be unrelated to PTSD?

I'm going to stay away from DV - at least for a moment - and stick with your mall example.

Person A has PTSD. Their trauma is unrelated to crowds or noisy environments. They love the mall. For Person A the mall and PTSD are unrelated.

Person B doesn't have PTSD. But they hate the mall. It's loud, dirty and shopping bores them. For Person B the mall and PTSD are unrelated.

Person C has PTSD. One of their traumas is having been in a crowded marketplace when a suicide bomber exploded her vest. Person C spent hours trying to save the lives of children with missing limbs. Person C is triggered by the mall because of the crowd. For Person C the mall and PTSD are very much related.

@gypsysoul - please don't take this the wrong way but just because you have PTSD doesn't mean you necessarily understand it very well. My vet had almost no understanding of his condition when I met him.

Lastly, you make one hell of an assumption about dissociating. When dissociated my vet doesn't crawl or cry. He lashes out. He suffers an amygdala hijack and is not fully in control of his actions. In that state he had sworn at me, thrown things at me, raised his hand with a makeshift weapon in it, deliberate splattered my face with his own blood from a hand wound and smashed a heavy torch into the bed head above my head. He had never hit me but I feel like much of the above qualifies as DV.

Is any of it ok? Of course not. Is it related to his PTSD? Yes.

And one last thing - if you think that smashing plates or furniture or punching walls etc is not terrifying for women and children to witness then you're kidding yourself. And in my view those actions qualify as DV.

 

[shimmerz]

In that state he had sworn at me, thrown things at me, raised his hand with a makeshift weapon in it, deliberate splattered my face with his own blood from a hand wound and smashed a heavy torch into the bed head above my head. He had never hit me but I feel like much of the above qualifies as DV.

It most definitely is DV @Sighs. This must be awful to live through.

 

[Sighs]

@shimmerz - it's not the best situation, but he and I are working together to try to deal with it better. I walk away and stay away if I feel my safety is at risk until he has been able to wrest back control.

A friend of ours has seen it once and she said to me afterwards - "Wow - you could see that was not him - his eyes were so vacant and his face and body language were so different - I mean it sort of sounds like an excuse until you see it." After that incident (which happened at another friend's house after he was triggered) he was out in the garden and I went out to see if he was ok and he asked me what he had said and whether he hit anyone. (He hadn't.)

His psychiatrist agrees that he is dissociating when in these states. Does that absolve him from all responsibility? Hell no. And he knows my boundary is that if he were to hit me I would have to leave because I cannot live in fear of being assaulted regardless of the reasons for it. But for him - it is very much related to his PTSD.

Really, the whole argument boils down to this:

The two may or may not be related, depending on the individual.

 

[shimmerz]

Yes, a very tough go. Years ago (WWII) my uncle was removed from the family household and put into an institution. Nobody would speak his name... he died about 50 years later in that same institution which was not 5 km away from where I had lived. I would have gone to see him. It was tragic. So I have the utmost respect for those that are able to cope.

I do believe it can be related, but in the circles I run in there are very few of us with PTSD that are ever violent. I hate seeing the assumed tie in when it comes to ptsd and violence. I am just saying that it can't be assumed.

 

[gypsysoul]

PTSD is not an excuse for violent behavior, including but not limited to, domestic violence.

Yes, but I'm specifically talking about domestic violence. And in saying that, I'm referring to physically abusing another person. Although, domestic violence does include abusive, non-physical behavior, I'm referring to physical abuse in my post only. I apologize if that was unclear.

The two may or may not be related, depending on the individual.

I don't necessarily believe the two are related, HOWEVER, I do acknowledge an indirect relationship between PTSD and DV. I don't believe PTSD causes DV but it is likely that someone that suffered a traumatic experience can be triggered with aggression. I'm saying that there's a big difference between aggression and/or violence against people and aggression in general. People can be aggressive without injuring others.

They may need to be treated separately

They will most certainly be treated separately. I do realize that there's a possibility that treating PTSD alone can alleviate some of the reasons some partake in DV but it's not the "heal all" treatment. Some people are genetically predispositioned to be violent. Can we necessarily attribute that all to PTSD? I don't think so.

How the hell can a trigger be unrelated to PTSD?

A trigger is not ALWAYS directly related is what I was trying to get at. It depends on the individual/situation. Many vets, for example, don't like fireworks. However, fireworks weren't the initial issue. It's the way the fireworks sound (like gunshots) that trigger a person. Fireworks-Battle.... There's no direct relationship between the two. I'm not discounting that it may feel, smell and sound the same.

It most definitely is DV @Sighs

Very true. I'm only referring to physical abuse... Just want to be as clear as possible.

 

[Sighs]

I'm only referring to physical abuse

I'm not sure I understand why. Are you saying that smashing plates or punching walls IS related to PTSD but punching a person is not?

People can be aggressive without injuring others.

True. But again I don't understand your point. Are you saying as long as you don't injure another person aggression is ok?

Some people are genetically predispositioned to be violent.

Not sure if I agree with this or not. I think you can be habituated to violence and multiple deployments to combat zones will probably do that.