News Reverse classism/being afraid of germany or germans

[Sandstone]

And in any case , what is a German? The borders have wandered around over the centuries, as have the people. I have a mix of German and English ancestors on both sides of my family. As I delved into my family tree, I found that characteristics I thought came from my "German-ness" like a desire to get everything precisely defined, were actually evident in the way the English people completed the Census. There seems to be an equal ratio of criminality and insanity in each heritage, and of skill, craft and hard work. The most wealthy ancestors came from Germany, but so did one of the very poorest.

However I think for my generation and the one above, WW2 and even WW1 are still a key part of the framework of our thoughts. In my family too there were people fighting on both sides. I have no idea how a family sustains that, and it is a subject never to be discussed. I do know my father navigated Lancasters to try to bomb property he later owned. In war it must be easier to fight if you can make the enemy something less than human in your mind, (just as it does with the French, who we have despised for much longer, and even the Welsh).and it seems to me it is the residue of that idea that still hangs around. It's harder to de-humanise your cousins or brothers though.

I'm pretty sure Germans are people, good and bad, just as other nations are.

 

[HëllaBubz]

I'm half German and my sister is marrying one next month - she fell for one of their golden children haha.

Situation specific is the phrase that comes to mind. Sometimes I think mental health is a proactive sponsor for blankets - blanket statements that is!

Go with the flow because no matter what happens your brain will find some reason why what we're saying doesn't have weight - challenge that brain pathway and re-write things the way you want them

 

[shimmerz]

Okay, hold on. This was not at all what I was trying to say.

that she is stressed a bit by the idea of Germany, going to Germany...

I actually love my German ancestry. Like, a lot.

There was a different post that I mentioned that my birth parents (crazy abusive people although I didn't know it at the time), had asked me to go to Germany with them to meet relatives. I was 25 years old. I had no idea that they had abused me while I was in their 'keep' until I turned 50 years old.

So, I think what I was trying to say was that a 'part' of me knew that I was not safe around my birth parents. I ended up with pneumonia - a wicked case - the day before I was supposed to leave.

So what I was trying to say was that somehow, even though I wasn't connected to my traumatized self at that time, my body completely shut me down so I wouldn't be able to go. This has happened several times in my life - a huge and sudden shut down to stop me from doing something that, now that I know about the trauma, all have a pattern that makes complete sense to me.

So no, I am absolutely not one of those who groups people together and says 'bad'. I was merely referring to what I believe was a purely somatic response that my body threw me into so I wouldn't put myself in danger (perceived?) by traveling with them.

 

[joeylittle]

I hope I am not overstepping my borders here.
In another thread @shimmerz shared her ancestry is German and her parents grew up during the big war... and it seemed to me that she is stressed a bit by the idea of Germany, going to Germany... but I might be wrong.

I’ve merged these threads.

@Never_falter - threads on MyPTSD can travel through related topics; there’s no need to start new threads for offshoots, especially to discuss things other members have brought up in the initial thread. This is the second time you’ve done this recently - don’t do it again, thanks.

If you have questions, they belong in a help ticket.

Back to the conversation.

do you think that one must be stressed by Germans?

No, no more than one must be stressed by people of any other nationalities.

Xenophobia, like classism, like racism, like all forms of bigotry - is a choice. Personally, I choose to work against those things rather than lean into them.

 

[Justmehere]

I am not stressed about the nation of Germany nor do I know anyone who is stressed about the of the nation of Germany.

There are so many current problems in the world to be stressed about... the nation of Germany not being one of them.

@Never_falter - you are hyper-analytical and hyper-defensive about so many things about yourself - what you say, your nationality, etc. Sometimes this happens when someone is anxious and stressed out in their own life. Is that the case for you? Do you feel stressed out? Don’t have to answer, just something I’m wondering. If I’m totally off the mark, please disregard.

 

[Never_falter2]

@shimmerz Sorry I got you wrong. I thought you had trouble embracing your German heritage because you associated Germany only with war, racism, socialism and stuff like this. So I thought I wanted to start a thread for you to meet nice Germans.

Personally I can understand why people are stressed by Germans. Maybe I was stressed around Germans if I did not happen to be one... not because we are bad or what but because of certain things in history which happened and it is just a fact, makes no sense to dispute the facts of history... and yes, I can understand why the historical facts make people feel uneasy.

But I see I was wrong here and it was a reaction to your birth parents. I sometimes get such somatic reactions by things that stress me too.

 

[Never_falter2]

@Justmehere: Yes, you beg I am anxious and stressed out in my own life for very numerous reasons... but this really is not the topic of this thread. This would be really, really off topic now.

But then I personally am stressed out by certain groups of people... for example... something we just talked about... class... people who chose to call themselves working class... not people who work in working class occupations, but people who call themselves working class. A while ago i noticed I was mega stressed by them. Not that I ever treat them badly, in fact I am trying to learn more about them and why they choose to call themselves working class (instead of using the more common term lower middle class). So if I am stressed by them why shouldn‘t people be stressed by Germans? After all we gave the world enough reason t be stressed by us... not me personally but other Germans... and wrongly thought this was the case here.

 

[shimmerz]

So if I am stressed by them why shouldn‘t people be stressed by Germans?

Because you are not other people and other people are not you.

I can understand why the historical facts make people feel uneasy.

I think we are trying to say that the historical facts are not making anyone uneasy besides you. You, I think, are mistakenly thinking these are issues for others. But really, they aren't. Like Justmehere says, there are so many crazy screwed up things going on in the world that Germany isn't really on the radar anymore for most of us.

It sounds to me like you are taking on too much responsibility for this. It also sounds like you have been taught to do so. It was in one of your posts that you said that you were taught in school how to deal with being tied to the Germany and the war that was the nearer side of 100 years ago!

I agree with @Justmehere in that you seem to be overly sensitive to the issues of your culture. Or the thought of how your culture has been perceived by others. And you actually projected that onto me and made it public that it was me saying it when it was actually you assuming it.

I am not admonishing you, I get it totally. But it seems you were thinking for me and posting rather than clarifying first what I meant. On a public forum, thinking for another person is probably not the best way to make friends ;-).

I am not upset, but do hope that you give it a bit more thought before worrying about how I relate to Germans. Or the rich. Or the poor. Or abusive pricks that dictate what another can do with their nails when around him. That is for me to deal with - not you. That isn't meant as a rude statement towards you but rather a hope that you will consider that your own personal stresses are most likely larger than life. It probably isn't in your own best interests to be taking on mine.

So yeah, I can't help but notice that that was two hits at me. Nailpolish and German roots @Never_falter. Maybe give me a bit of a break before you shout out to me again. Think before you post if you don't mind. This feels drama-ish (mainly because I keep having to defend myself around you for stuff I am actually not saying at all) and I have many many large and very serious issues of my own to deal with right now.

All the best
Shimmerz

 

[Never_falter2]

No, that was not two hits at you.
Re Germans: I was trying to help, not to hit. I thought you had problems with your ancestry, I was trying to help by helping you meet nice German people who are happy to be German so you can see there is no reason to be stressed. I personally am always happy when somebody does something like this for me. Maybe I was being to impulsive, but I was trying to help. In my culture people are more direct and more likely to act. Maybe played a role. I do not know. I am sorry it came out wrong but I wasn‘t attacking you. The opposite. I never ever said you had to defend yourself for what I thought was feeling uneasy about Germans. Nobody has to defend their feelings and I get why people feel uneasy around Germans (I know this was not even the case, but I thought so)... and I am really sorry that was wrong. I thought if it was a stupid idea while posting but then posted anyway because I thought the worst that could happen was that the post was silly or I was overstepping my borders but I did not realize you might feel attacked.
Re: Reverse classist comments about royality and nailpolish. First of all I do understand you meant no harm and it was not really bad. It was just a little comment.
You say that is you to deal with things like this, not me. Dead wrong. It is upper and upper middle class persons who have to deal with people having ideas like this.
They can do two (or three) things: A) think that you are a reverse classist commoner, but commoners are not to be taken seriously anyway
B) try to educate you, to make you see the world trough their eyes
C) whine in secret

Actually my choice has when somebody said something about my folks has typically been C. So I thought that next time somebody says something I considers reverse classist I try to educate them why I think it is not good.
This time it was about royality, you know, I am not royality but it was the first reverse classist comment I came around since I made that choice to educate people again (first time I made that choice it ended very wrong and people started making fun if me).
See, I understand why for you this is no big deal... and you think maybe royality is a bit funny anyway and why not use them for a joke. See I cannot say how royality is seeing this cause I am not royality.
But in my class we are often at the butt of jokes and I know how it makes me feel. I wanna cry my eyes out.

I understand you said nothing bad and it was just a little comment... but what I hoped for was that you and other people who made the same joke see why it is not good.

And you know, I am often thoughtless and make jokes like this or worse. So I am really no better (but trying to stop that).

So I hope that you do believe me that I am making no drama but genuinely asking you to learn about a class. In case of The people who joke about my class: they often get it all wrong, they have no idea what we are all about. They are dead sure they know everything about us but never bothered to ask us (or open a history book... or pay attention in history class)... and nearly everything they think they know about us is wrong.

I thought: Yeah, it worked. I tried to explain, she got it but then I realized you think that I am trying to attack you and I am not. Really not.

Sorry for being that wordsy and it might be a little jumbled cause I actually should be doing other things not writing.

I hope you get me. I did not pick on you.

 

[shimmerz]

Sorry, I am choosing to step out of this posting thanks.

 

[Never_falter2]

Okay, but I really only tried to help (Re: Germans). Might have been stupid and on a whim, but I do stupid things on a whim all of the time. See my post about trying to help my vet by posting about his job in a career board... might have been stupid. I will think better next time... but I haven‘t been attacking you, okay? I tried to help.

 

[Fadeaway]

I think wht @Justmehere was pointing out is that your stress bleeds into this thread, so I don't see it as off topic at all. But it is your thread.

I think most people know that modern Germany is nothing like WWII Germany just like most people know that America no longer has slavery. Imigrant kids in cages...well thatcis another
Almost all countries have atrocities in their past, and todays Germans shouldn't have to suffer for the sins of their fathers, but I know the stigma persists. I assume especiall amongst German soldiers.

Germany is a great ally, one that our current president underestimates. I also admire Angela Merkel. Sorry Canada, you guys are too.

Anywas, while it isnt taught in highschool or talked about in the media, Sociologists and cultural anthropologists consider the U.S. to have an invisible caste system.
The powers that be bennifit on keeping people focused on an unspoken war between classess in the u.s. fulled by the media with statments abut welfare queens and stories of a rich kid getting only probation for murder because "he was so spoiled he didn't knowright from wrong. They pit us against eachother so we are to distratcted to focus our attention on the major issuws