Torture Vs Abuse

[UnKnown-Self]

and the conversation closed on me).

So so very true.

It's like, I would love to know more about you..... And then.... Never mind !

 

[joeylittle]

perhaps there needs to be official government definitions of what is what. Just like there needs to be the diagnostic manual.

There are. It's just that - like trauma and (criterion A Trauma) - words are used both figuratively and descriptively.

I believe it's always good to talk about language and meaning. Both, because words mean things - specific things - and, because the more we are in contact with people who have specific experiences (like, on this forum), the more evolved our language, the better our communication.

Many times I was asked the question, when I said my father sexually abused me: "was it your real father your step father? "
Seriously? I had the good luck of it being my real father who I grew up with that raped me so I have a valid reason to be messed up by it?
There are no scorecards on pain.

This just makes my stomach turn over. I suppose that people also are going to find it less bothersome or disturbing if it wasn't your biological father? Either way - it's just, weird, somehow, that it should matter to someone who has neither experience. It sounds like judgement.

When I got to this board, I searched and searched for anyone who had an experience that had the combined markers that mine did - because I was hungry to talk with someone who could be that much closer to me, in terms of identification. There was one member, but they were just on their way out at the time. I read all their old posts a little like an obsessed person - but those posts helped me, a lot.

And, all sorts of other posts help, too. There's just that 'ding' of identification that you can get when another person's narrative - their story - has factual points in common with your own.

That doesn't take away peoples' ability to see other kinds of overlaps in experiences. But, the specificity adds to them.

Torture - as a specific traumatic scenario, described by international and local law - isn't up for grabs, in terms of what it means or when it applies. It's more narrowly/specifically defined than Criterion A.

Abuse - as a specific traumatic scenario - has many articulated subtypes that tend to not be used, or replaced by other words. There are some posters I read here who describe their abuse as being torture. I would probably call it sadistic cruelty, sadistic sexual abuse, inhumane treatment, dehumanizing, sadistic acts of violence...prolonged psychological cruelty and abuse, intense, inescapable pain being inflicted...I actually think those experiences all deserve those words.

And yeah, it's more words. But it's also more specific.

If the purpose behind naming things is to accept them, to recognize them, to identify with others over them, and ultimately, to heal from them - then why not use the most accurate words for them?

(Bear in mind - I'm aware this is specific to me and how my head works, and a whole other set of beliefs I have about language and human learning. And I don't mean to sound like a preachy snob. I probably do, but it's not my intent, it's just how directly and how much I relate to language and believe that words matter. I'm absolutely OK with being disagreed with on this one, but everyone will bear with me (I hope) while I burble about it, anyway).

 

[UnKnown-Self]

@joeylittle
I understand some people are more skilled and attracted to words that specify more clearly what it is they want to say. I also appreciate you taking the time to explain. Due to childhood circumstances and some adult choices, I didn't really get out into the world until I was in my middle forties. My love for reading and learning helped but you can read a word hundreds of times but it's using it that makes the difference. To make it more complicated my ex who I spent 20 years with was not from this country, had no interest in expanding his vocabulary and would yell and curse me if I used a word he didn't understand. I didn't realize the impact this had until I stepped out into the business world. I remember riding home on the bus silently repeating the word itinerary until I could say it out loud without tripping over my tongue. I believe in the power of words but I am unfortunately inept when I get to a certain point. Perhaps it was less how my brain works than how it was trained. You've given me something to think about.
I appreciate it.

 

[UnKnown-Self]

Why is it useful for people with developmental trauma to be able to compare notes, but not people who've dealt with torture to compare notes?

I hope you didn't think I was saying those with similar experiences don't have the right to compare notes. That was not my intent at all. In Pete Walkers book he pointed out specifically the importance of veterans of war especially did better when discussing events that caused their PTSD. Their experience is so unique and their fear of being judged by civilians that talking to other vets was when they felt most comfortable and made the most improvement.
While I have had PTSD my whole life, I just started educating myself about it last summer, so I am still coming to grips with many facets of this disorder. Please know I would never judge nor feel you or anyone had to find their answers in a specific way. I know enough to understand it just doesn't work like that. I also would like to know I could say what I needed to regardless of what it was. I don't know myself yet what that may be. So if I offended you or anyone else I apologize.

 

[scout86]

It is exactly the opposite for me.

I guess that's why I asked for clarification. My own experience is that I get something from "it's not just me?" that I've never had before. I don't have words to express how that feels. All this time, literally my whole life, I thought I was uniquely, irredeemably "Wrong". And maybe it's not just me? I kinda like that idea!
So yeah, what Friday said!

My T is big on using words precisely too. He says words have power. They affect how we see things and how we feel about things and we should use them carefully. Since I WASN'T tortured, I'm not doing myself any favors if I call it that, even if aspects of it felt a little that way. But if I call "abuse" something else, some "other" thing, like I did most of my life, THAT doesn't do me any favors either. Accuracy is a good thing.

I don't remember anymore who started this topic, but GREAT IDEA. (Too lazy to look it up.)

 

[goingonhope]

Personally I think that there are a couple of other caveats to put in; namely an inability to escape it, a length of time, and a structured approach by the perpetrator. Basically that if a person in a superior position inflicts pain intentionally multiple times with a planned approach, and the other person has an inability to escape.

I agree and appreciate how well said the above is.

I'd add:

The introduction and follow-thru of multi-faceted forms of abuse;

That aforementioned, planned approach - to include and result in the removal of an individual or individuals, from others empowered to help.

From personal experience of torture, this might occur through one perpetrating regular periodic threats, mental confusion/volatile emotional transference and through numerous psychological means and abuses with an aim towards division and thereafter destructive conquest - designed only to isolate, impoverish and continue torturing the already tortured.

I'd too include the torturer's need for the development and use of time, in order to heighten and tighten up, on all damaging provisions.

I think it's important to acknowledge that a select group of torturer's invariably desire and/or need recruits. :wtf:, Blah.

 

[Ronin]

Square one. ^^. Sadistic mental / emotional abuse. Not torture.

Damn frustrates me. Also because personal & people still in my life.
The time they were actually torturing me, while keeping me isolated in either the same or a different country they took me to against my will, in order to break the way I associate with people & my self value and a sense of a coherent world?
Was hella damned different than all the other shenanigans they've been pulling.

They're not the same thing, full stop. Differentiation of subtleties isn't f*cking subtleties.

(And bear in mind I'm taking into account developmental differences & that, because of us being different people & our bodies working differently, what's one thing for one may not be for another.

Which is why I view things that may pass for 'extreme abuse' in adulthood as possibly something else where childhood is concerned - because children just work differently.

But we're still talking types & legal definitions, not whatever else.)

 

[ghotiff]

something else where childhood is concerned

Childhood is definitely different to adult. If what happened in childhood happened to me now, at the very least I would handle it (as in action to it) so differently that it's hard (impossible?) to understand what I did (and didn't do) as a child.

Not relevant to torture, but relevant to how definitions matter.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Childhood is definitely different to adult.

I feel this is extremely relevent when it comes to defining it!

 

[Aggie]

There's not a "being nice" time in torture, no true quiet times either, not really.

And a tr...

No, not true. It is common during torture techniques to get information to go back and forth to confuse and weaken the victim. It can be a part of the torture routine.

 

[Aggie]

I got here late and disappointed. In reading the dialogue, at first some of the arguments seemed silly, but then I saw the reasons...people trying to make sense of what happened to them. For some it seems that not being tortured is helpful to them.

I've asked this question myself about my abuse/torture. The answers are hard to come by. In my abused past as a child I went through several mock executions. I easily could have died at their hands. The whole situations were mixed with physical and emotional abuse, both which at times were tantamount to torture.

Being able to categorize various events has been somewhat helpful in processing the abuse. Sometimes the physical pain in just "plain" abuse was worse than some of the torture. Being a child I couldn't get away from either.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

It is common during torture techniques to get information to go back and forth to confuse and weaken the victim. It can be a part of the torture routine.

If information is their goal. If their goal is simply to cause you continious pain and to get you to comply, then no. And "being nice" is fake during torture anyway...as goes the remainder of that post:

no true quiet times either, not really.

And a true psyopath can switch from torturing to having "normal" real world faces.

You are taking what Im saying out of context. Sure, there are times they can "be nice" but it is not true "nice-ness" which is what I was saying.

at first some of the arguments seemed silly,

People arent arguing in this thread, they are debating and it was a healthy debate where a lot of research happened.

.people trying to make sense of what happened to them. For some it seems that not being tortured is helpful to them.

Actually knowing that I was tortured helps me as without that it becomes all justified again to me. Some dont define my past as such but thats ok. My therapist does and I do and really thats all that matters. If some dont want to call their past torture thats between them and their therapists. This thread was just defining the difference between abuse and torture and it wasnt about our individual traumas.

Disclaimer: My opinions are just that, opinions and shouldnt be taken as fact.