Torture Vs Abuse

[dnp]

And no, I don't consider myself tortured but growing up as a child in the "death house" with hours and hours of "death chants" everyday and constant threat of medieval punishment (scourging to rip out skin and flesh) makes me feel sympathy towards people who were tortured and not just by a government official.

 

[Weemie]

@dnp

As one of those people I feel like if I don't belong here, I don't belong here. Deep down inside I believe that there is an element to torture that can exist outside the very specific definition provided by the UN. Keeping in mind that the UN definition is for legal purposes, not to analyze trauma.

I believe it was touched on just recently. This element of an inorganic, constructed, goal-oriented mechanism that is crafted and maintained in deliberation. This is what I am here for, to look for that. To talk about it. It was touched on briefly under cult abuse as well. Again we have that very constructed environment designed for a purpose.

However, I feel like I am intruding. So please let me know if you would like me to leave or back away.

 

[dnp]

@lightraze

Thank you, you're right, I should exit this thread. Even though I'm not a torture victim I started shaking uncontrollably because of these posts, and that in itself is a sign I should not be in this thread, due to not fully processing all the death chants and medieval punishment stuff causing me to get upset. I would feel sad if anyone thought that a definition in a UN treaty invalidated them and I hope they will realize that. Because the definitions in treaties are for the specific purpose of the treaty. Not intended to apply to their own view of their trauma.

 

[Ronin]

@dnp, last I understood though the way that definition is used as an example, isn't to exclude victims, but to set a base line for discussions, something to orient by.

Something as 'Let's be on the same page, about the very same minimum, before we go into differences & where things need expansion & personal histories'.
It's by no means meant to ostracize people with very dehumanizing trauma & trauma of the type that's devastating and unusual in the abuse circles, and hard to find support, validation, and healing for, for its very nature.

 

[Kintsugi]

Many people have dark sides that they may not even realize exist until being put into a position of being pressured to self preserve (whatever that means to them). That is how I saw those experiments.

That is what Dr. Zimbardo calls "The Lucifer Effect" at work. I cannot recommend his book, The Lucifer Effect, highly enough.

Here's his TED Talk:

I highly, highly doubt that one's "dark side" has much or anything to do with 'parts.' People are adaptive, dynamic creatures who are vulnerable to their environment. What is acceptable behavior at the bar is not at the workplace. What is acceptable in war may not be at peace. What is acceptable in your capacity as a prison guard you may find abhorrent, even unthinkable, in the context of your home. Environment affects us all on a deep, insidious, pervasive level.

I suppose that is compartmentalization but not, I don't think, to the point of pathology. Like it or not, this is normal human nature. That is what Zimbardo underscores. The willingness of Holocaust victims on the trains to death camps to step atop one another, crush each other, suffocate one another, in an attempt to reach the air they needed to survive is simply normal human behavior in an extraordinary situation.

Post script: I did not even realize you guys were talking about Zimbardo's infamous experiment when I was responding to Shimmerz. All the more reason to read his book, which includes a full transcript of that experiment.

 

[shimmerz]

What is acceptable behavior at the bar is not at the workplace. What is acceptable in war may not be at peace. What is acceptable in your capacity as a prison guard you may find abhorrent, even unthinkable, in the context of your home. Environment affects us all on a deep, insidious, pervasive level.

Yes, agreed, but for those of us who were tortured/abused as children these theories ring hollow. Those who were tortured just for the sake of being tortured for sex, for someone's person gain that was not due to survival circumstances on the behalf of the torturer.

 

[Weemie]

The big thing, if I can contribute further, about Zimbardo's experiments and especially the Stanford Prison Experiment isn't due to parts or even extraordinary circumstances--in fact, I would go further to suggest that this was the crux of the SPE in the first place. It's due to roles. The roles we take on, the way our environment influences us. Yes, there are those who are sadistic and who enjoy suffering, but I have found those individuals to be far rarer than those who are highly damaged, or who are responding out of their environment.

 

[scout86]

There is some behavior that is accepted but NEVER "acceptable". (I wasn't planning on watching the whole talk, but it was too interesting to stop.)

 

[joeylittle]

Does this mean the term "dumping" can never be used with regard to land, air or space because it would contradict international law?

No, because it's all specifying sea. Bad example. Every clause contains 'sea'. It's describing the terms of - the form of - 'dumping at sea.'

Look: The UN defines the criteria for what constitutes torture, in order to then declare and prosecute it as a crime, where applicable. You are trying to say that function is present, without form. I'm saying that the UN definition of torture describes form. Criminal prosecution - function (of said definition) - then follows.

Some states in the US have their own definition of torture, and it's more broad. You can look up California as an example, if you're not going to be bothered to read citations that are included.

In places where a definition of torture has not been legally provided, the UN definition may be cited. The UN definition may also be cited in cases where Universal Jurisdiction is claimed. You can look it up if you want.

Or, you can just keep insisting that you are right. I'm not being dense - I understand exactly what you are trying to say - it's just that you are factually incorrect.

It's not defining a specific trauma, but a specific crime. The purpose of the law is not to define trauma for survivors, but to assign remedies and punishments.

The purpose of the law is to define torture as it applies to survivors, in order for the crime of torture to be prosecuted.

If that's not clear, I don't know how to make it any clearer.

And, @dnp - if you come back to check this - what cashew said, here:

@dnp... the way that definition is used as an example, isn't to exclude victims, but to set a base line for discussions, something to orient by. Something as 'Let's be on the same page, about the very same minimum, before we go into differences & where things need expansion & personal histories'.

It's by no means meant to ostracize people with very dehumanizing trauma & trauma of the type that's devastating and unusual in the abuse circles, and hard to find support, validation, and healing for, for its very nature.

Is all correct.

I'm sorry to imply that your experience isn't valid. Many of us are struggling with the same thing. Personally - I would like capital-T torture (if I may compare it to capital-T trauma) to be it's own, singular definition, instead of the catch-all term for 'extreme and unusual, inhumane, mind-breaking abuse'.

Can't we just call something extreme, unusual, inhumane, mind-breaking abuse if that's what it was? And not call it by a legal definition that means something else?

 

[lostforgottensoul]

omg they're being nice. How long? How long will this extend for, how long will it last? How can I make it last. = a lot of the selfblame. Etc. But it's the good times that are hardest for a lot of people.

There's not a "being nice" time in torture, no true quiet times either, not really.

And a true psyopath can switch from torturing to having "normal" real world faces.

 

[Ronin]

no true quiet times either, not really.

Disagree.

If there weren't, I wouldn't ever learn to regroup & recollect. Just because something wasn't pleasant, far from it, doesn't mean it wasn't relieving, or a quiet time. Quiet painful anxious time? Still a quiet time.

 

[Weemie]

I think a lot of the big thing in this thread too is that there are quite a few people who are coming out here (myself included) who have experienced trauma that is not easily definable as organic abuse, or torture. It is natural for people to try and define what happened to them.

Was it really rape? Was it really abuse? And the answer, much to the chagrin of many I am sure, is that at the end of the day, it still happened. It happened to you and in the spectrum of your experiences, it's one of The Worst Things. It caused suffering of magnitudes.

I don't believe that it is invalidating to discover that your trauma doesn't fit the definition of torture. That's like saying, if your trauma isn't torture, it doesn't matter. That's comparing abuse and torture, which is like comparing apples and oranges. It's people using torture as a catch-all phrase instead of using it where it belongs, in a very specific context.