Other Trying to understand "lack of empathy"

[Deleted member 47099]

Something I've struggled to understand over the years is having grown up as a kid, with a perp who was devoid of normal human empathy.

Empathy - Wikipedia

The section on "atypical responses" of the Wikipedia Empathy entry says:

"Atypical empathic responses have been associated with autism and particular personality disorders such as psychopathy, borderline, narcissistic, and schizoid personality disorders; conduct disorder; schizophrenia; bipolar disorder; and depersonalization."

My trauma T's and I have hypothesized many of those disorders regarding my perp, but they remain speculation.

Many of us with PTSD have encountered perps who are devoid of basic empathy.

For me, empathy (defined loosely as "the capacity to understand or feel what another person is experiencing from within their frame of reference, i.e., the capacity to place oneself in another's position") is the fundamental core of what makes us human.

To me, empathy is the basis that's needed for compassion, and the two go hand in hand.

To interact with a human being who lacks that is bizarre and scary and haunting. And if they are perps, it's also damaging and traumatic.

How do y'all deal with the "encountering someone who is devoid of empathy" thing?

To me it feels kind of like interacting with a human who is not human.

Kind of like a horror film. :eek:

 

[EveHarrington]

I know you are reacting based on your own personal experiences, but what you say sounds kind of cruel to me given that there are certain disorders that people are born with that cause them to struggle with empathy (and they are not malicious perps).

If someone told me that one of my traits made me less than human or non-human.....let’s just say I’d be a little pissed.

Maybe I should ask where your empathy is towards those who struggle with showing empathy?

I think you’re painting every non-empathetic person with the same brush, which simply isn’t fair.

I have had a number of friends who have struggled with empathy. I have struggled to understand them.....I know I never will, so my job is to simply accept them for who they are and love them regardless. But to judge them as less than human?.....would simply be cruel.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

I think it's sad that autism is first on the list but you advise they are non-humans to you. No, we are all humans.

I understand not being able to understand non-empathic person. I'm suprised to see BPD on there. I have BPD but am the most empathic person I know. But, describing anyone as non-human...most especially when that list includes autism, is, yes, cruel, in my opinion. It is one thing to struggle to understand something. It's another to place a judgement of "non-human" on these folks. Most especially when there is already a huge stigma in place for many of these disorders.

 

[ILoveLife]

Sophy, the research on empathy is flawed to say the least.
Like, psychopathy is well known for lack of empathy, but that doesn't mean they don't understand what are emotions, or feel them (however little).
Folks with schizophrenia and bipolar do have empathy, same as in the autism spectrum, and I'm not sure what depersonalization is doing there so I won't say anything about it.

What it is known is that we all have some sort of idea that the other exists, and that they are similar to us, the Theory of Mind thing. Some folks with some disorders, but not all folks with those disorders, have issues with the idea of Other and what that means. There are also a sort of delusion in which the person doesn't believe others exist, I've had it and I don't lack empathy the slightlest - what I lack is patience, which is another issue. :p

It's hard to separate personality from disorder, especially if the disorder has "personality" attached to it, but it's a flaw in psychiatry, because not all folks with borderline have the exact same personality - as not everyone else that folks call "normies" have the exact same "normal personality" whatever that means to you.

Diagnosable disorders are not people, and people are not diagnosable disorders. What people with disorders have is symptoms, signs that something isn't balanced correctly. And nowhere in schizophrenia, bipolar, borderline, etc, is lack of empathy there. I think possibly in ASPD but I'm not sure if it's still there.

Being human is also having issues with empathy. Everyone struggles with empathy at one point or another, and most people couldn't recognize empathy if it hit them in the face with a hammer. Some people have issues with realizing the other has valid emotions, but that doesn't mean they have a disorder either. Like a T I had used to say: "Most mentally ill people don't have diagnoses to apply to".

Psychiatry is still very much in it's infancy and there will be a better understanding of these things eventually, which I think it's good to remember, since we see all our perps with possible disorders and it's easy for our mental health teams to diagnose them at a distance, which no one should ever do.

I am a firm believer in the idea of the Theory of Mind, and that not everyone is taught about it, but can learn.
I've spoken with diagnosed psychopaths who learned about it and made better choices in their life concerning Others, that doesn't mean they like them or that things don't cross their minds, but they have better control over their actions by understanding the other exists.

 

[Deleted member 47099]

Well, if a perp, with a lack of empathy has children in their "care" and behaves towards them in an inhuman way, then it's a pretty big problem, IMO.

I guess if people lacking empathy are left to their own devices, that's okay. But if they have power over children or other people and the lack of empathy makes them be violent/ cruel, then that's a massive problem.

Sophy, the research on empathy is flawed to say the least.
Like, psychopathy is well known for lack of empathy, but that doesn't mean they don't understand what are emotions, or feel them (however little).

Yeah, I agree that we know (scarily) little about this. If we knew more about it, we might be better at identifying perps before they do heinous damage to others, that leaves them with lifelong PTSD.

I agree that when the degree of knowledge/ research is lacking, it makes it more difficult to deal with any given subject well.

I think that's partly a reason why I and many others have such difficulty being able to "understand" a perp without empathy. Where do you begin to understand that kind of behaviour and the underlying mental states?

If the research and knowledge in this field were better, I think it would help us all to understand how some people become perps and why they inflict such massive, often sadistic violence on others.

 

[ILoveLife]

I'm not sure if you're assuming being mentally ill and lacking empathy automatically means the parent is a perp. There are a bunch of other factors in play here...

A parent with lack in empathy can be a good parent.
A mentally ill parent can be a good parent.

Maybe this is a cognitive distortion?
I'm not challenging you, just wondering.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Also, not all perps are mentally ill and not all perps lack empathy.

 

[Deleted member 47099]

I'm not sure if you're assuming being mentally ill and lacking empathy automatically means the parent is a perp. There are a bunch of other factors in play here...

A parent with lack in empathy can be a good parent.
A mentally ill parent can be a good parent.

No, of course being mentally ill and/ or lacking empathy doesn't automatically make someone a perp.

But conversely, many perps seem to have a lack of empathy.

And my perp did have a lack of empathy and was mentally ill.

I agree that a person with mental illness can be a good parent.

I'm more thoughtful re whether a person who lacks empathy can be a good parent... dunno... I would say empathy is a pretty fundamental part of "being a good parent". Not sure.

Also, not all perps are mentally ill and not all perps lack empathy.

Yeah. No one claimed they are/ do...?

But for many of us, we had perps that lacked empathy. Either totally or at least partially, to a significant degree.

I think it's okay to try and understand that phenomenon and its effects.

 

[ILoveLife]

Compassion certainly is fundamental for being a good parent... empathy not so much. One can learn how to be adequate to children's emotions.

 

[mumstheword]

My ex, also perp, clearly lacks empathy, I tell my kids he's most likely on the spectrum, because it's not appropriate for me to talk about psychopathy with them, at this stage, and I've read Tony Attwood's book on Aspergers and one form or presentation of it, describes my ex to a T.

I was with him for 20+ years so I think I have a right to not only read and research, but to seek diagnostic descriptions that fit the behaviour cluster that I experienced, at his hands, as well as, to tell my children something to help them understand their dads disturbing behaviours, and clear minus in the empathy department. And yes, it is very horrifying and haunting.

It's like a well of emptiness, an emotional void, that's filled instead with manipulative ploys, lies and horrific inability to care for the welfare of other's, plus no stops with law breaking, exploiting people or pulling himself up when he's causing harm. The only thing that seems to effect any change, is the understanding that being exposed and losing face with those he's trying to keep under his control or that serve a purpose, will put a stop to his agency (to exploit, manipulate, swindle, impress or milk) his human/energy supply. That defeats the purpose of his entire selfish agenda.

My youngest son (I have 5 sons) tells me he believes he has a psychopath brain and that he doesn't really feel empathy for other's, that he enjoys hurting other's but has learnt impulse control because, according to him "I taught him morals". He says he keeps his psychopath part under lock and key, in an inner prison, and has to constantly battle with the violent, sadistic impulses to not act on them. He was an exceedingly violent baby and toddler (mainly toddler, but he did torture my nipples, as a baby) but when I left his father I was able to put in rigorous and loving boundaries and (I , now) have a healthy relationship with my son.

Thankfully his school keep a close eye on him too, and he's very intelligent and aware that collectively, myself, my amazing partner and his school, are watching him and will keep him accountable and make it very difficult for him to get away with anti-social behaviour.

He's actually a great kid, although his preoccupation with violence and his very dark, sardonic sense of humour can be gruelling and disturbing.

I pray he becomes a good, healthy and wise man. He's only 12, and says he wants to be a neuroscientist. I've already read the book about the neuroscientist with the psychopath brain, maybe my kid will be the next generational one.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

I think it's okay to try and understand that phenomenon and its effects.

I didn't say it wasn't ok to try to understand. What I did say is you are painting too wide of a paint brush and put a judgement on those disorders in which lack empathy as non-human...which is a distortion.

I had a perp that lacked empathy and I had perps that did not. Trying to understand is totally ok. But recongizing distortred thinking is also good.

 

[ILoveLife]

One of my perps had empathy, R. To be honest, it was really bad because of it, he always knew how to push my buttons in order to get me to that emotional place. He cried with me even. f*cked up stuff.

Violence, sadism and all that crap is all too human.

Lack of empathy doesn't automatically mean perp. That isn't what's about.