Other Trying to understand "lack of empathy"

[EveHarrington]

I think as a society it would also be important to *try* and keep these people from situation/ positions/ jobs where they could be a harm to children and others. But obviously we would need far, far better research to be able to do that.

No. No. No. No. No. No. No.

I get what you’re saying, but to prevent people from doing something (like hold certain jobs) before they’ve hurt someone would be a complete overreach of governmental power.

Just as none of us deserve to be excluded from jobs simply because we have ptsd, it would be unethical and just plain wrong to keep someone away from a job simply because they lack empathy.

I strongly urge you to work on this cognitive distortion.

It’s NOT just a lack of empathy.

It’s lack of empathy PLUS maliciousness.

There are many people out there who struggle with empathy but wouldn’t ever hurt someone.

I get the feeling that you’re only here to get support from people who think like you and are just dismissing those who don’t agree with you.

 

[Sideways]

So much of this thread is utter FB-informed nonesense.

But this statement, in particular:

For me, empathy...is the fundamental core of what makes us human.

Good grief! Spending any time amongst animals (pretty much anything other than octopuses) is going to set thins straight that empathy is not in any measure a ‘uniquely human’ trait.

Atypical presentations of empathy, which is what your Wikipedia (groan) excert is discussing, is simply a non-typical presentation of empathy. Empathy may well be there, but it’s expressed in non-typical ways.

A lack of empathy does not make a person less human (smacks forehead). It’s nothing more than a personality trait. One of the things that makes humanity great is our ability to embrace (and even benefit from) diversity within our species. Suggesting that anyone and everyone who lacks one specific personality trait is somehow less than, in any way, seems fairly akin to racism, sexism, ageism, and on and on.

Defining anyone’s abilities or worth based on one single personality trait... Really????

 

[Friday]

having grown up as a kid, with a perp who was devoid of normal human empathy.

You’re conflating a trait your abuser had, with abuser, fullstop.

Like associating a pretty dress with being raped.

It’s part of what PTSD does, tries to find the “touch hot burner = get burned” connection, and it’s in no way accurate.

 

[Deleted member 47099]

You’re conflating a trait your abuser had, with abuser, fullstop.

Like associating a pretty dress with being raped.

It’s part of what PTSD does, tries to find the “touch hot burner = get burned” connection, and it’s in no way accurate.

Nah. I think other people in this thread are conflating it.

I originally chose a quote that says "atypical empathy responses". Then people read that as "no empathy". Then someone feels they need to lecture me that *my* quote says "atypical" which mean (surprise, surprise!) "atypical".

Also, you can check through all my posts in this thread... I never said "All perps lack empathy"... I never said "All people who lack empathy are perps"... That was all said by OTHER people in this thread.

I said that I think lack of empathy is a *problem*, which is what I think.

I also said that I think empathy is the core element of what makes us "human", which is what my opinion is.

I also said that "perps without empathy" are a freak-show all of their own and they are chilling and horrifying to be exposed to, especially 24/7 for years/ decades.

I said I want to understand the phenomenon "lack of empathy" especially as it *relates* to perps-without-empathy.

Sorry about the amount of conflating in this thread, but it hasn't been me doing it.

 

[Friday]

Actually, I didn’t read other people’s posts before responding. I often don’t. Sometimes that bites me in the ass & on reading through have to come back and apologize, but overall I like responding to things fresh. It was only going back through and reading that I saw others had picked up that theme, as well, from several different angles.

What you assigned to everyone without empathy, or with atypical expressions of it

- bizarre & haunting
- subhuman/ lacking the fundamental core of what makes us human
- no capacity for compassion

That’s conflating a trait your abuser had, with a vast range of people.

Whilst you do make an effort to say that people who abuse are even worse, the sheer level of badness you attach to a lack of empathy, or showing of empathy, is... huge. Enormously huge.

And also quite contrary to my own experience.

For me, empathy (defined loosely as "the capacity to understand or feel what another person is experiencing from within their frame of reference, i.e., the capacity to place oneself in another's position") is the fundamental core of what makes us human.

To me, empathy is the basis that's needed for compassion, and the two go hand in hand.

To interact with a human being who lacks that is bizarre and scary and haunting. And if they are perps, it's also damaging and traumatic.
To me it feels kind of like interacting with a human who is not human.

This does not mean that I’m saying that dealing with the component in your own trauma isn’t important. But it’s trying to take that component, and apply it to the world, that is problematic. That’s the PTSD hot burner = burned cause & effect thinking that simply doesn’t work. Whether you’re talking empathy or race or occupation or hosiery. Our minds try and make these connections, our minds SEE connections, that simply aren’t there, and aren’t real. No matter how real they seem, and feel.

 

[Ronin]

I said I want to understand the phenomenon "lack of empathy" especially as it *relates* to perps-without-empathy.

Well, starting off with a base assumption about people being a quote freak show may be a bit in the way of understanding, though?

I am not all that sure, even perp side, having empathy or not is that big of a difference.
The acts can be horrifying on their own, and a cruel person will come up with cruelty, regardless of if they feel for their victim or not.

I think even where acts are concerned, coming at it from the empathy angle? Is a wrong angle. Something else about what makes things damaging and horrifying to consider.

 

[Sideways]

Then someone feels they need to lecture me that *my* quote says "atypical" which mean (surprise, surprise!) "atypical".

So, having started a discussion on the significance of lack of empathy, it makes sense that someone is going to point out that the reference you’ve cited is completely irrelevant, yeah?

And you’ve said that you believe empathy is what makes us human, and reasoned that ergo a lack of empathy must make someone essentially ‘non-human’. You’ve gone so far as to say that interacting with a person who lacks empathy is kind of like a horror film. That’s a pretty alarming statement.

So, it makes sense that someone would point out that, given empathy is pretty standard in the animal kingdom, there isn’t really much rationality to your belief... it’s pretty standard that if you start a discussion based on a completely irrelevant reference and an illogical belief, that might form part of the ensuing discussion...

Your opinions are fine. Your beliefs are fine. But having opened a discussion about them, it makes sense that someone might point out, “that makes no sense”...

 

[joeylittle]

I think people are circling around something useful.

Empathy really shows itself in action - in expression. It doesn't show itself nearly as clearly just in concept.

So, when talking about whether or not people have empathy, what I think we mean to say is - whether or not they act upon (or express) their empathy, and then, whether or not they do it in typical or atypical ways.

Whether or not a person experiences empathy is very hard to evaluate, unless you can interview them about it.

But whether or not they express empathy, and whether those expressions are typical or not - that's the thing to look at.

I know people who would describe themselves as empathetic, who do not actually manifest empathy towards other people in their lives. They might be able to express it towards animals, or towards people that are far away from them. I don't think others would describe such a person as being empathetic, necessarily. It really depends on the observable behavior, not an idea of whether or not someone feels it.

 

[Abstract]

I see this in a few different ways. Firstly looking at empathy: Cognitive empathy (theory of mind) and emotional empathy are two different things. People often seem to see empathy as necessarily caring about people. or treating others well. Theory of mind only means you can put yourself in another persons shoes. Read them. If you can't you can accidently blunder into hurting others without understanding or intent with it doesn't translate to necessary lack of care. If you do you can use it to attune to others or use it to manipulate or torture others.

Emotional empathy is when you feel emotional or even physical reactions in response to others experiences. You feel what they feel as much as you can guess what that is. Emotional empathy definitely is a help in containing us hurting others as it is then uncomfortable doing whatever it is. But a twisted mind can distort reality or use excused or other things to justify actions. And not feeling doesn't mean someone becomes a perp.

Also, as I understand it, many people can switch emotional empathy off in certain situations. Them and us for example. Lets say a mafiosa who loves and is attuned to his children then kills the enemy without a blink. Apparently there is even research to say that psychopaths can switch on emotional empathy at times.

I read that lack of emotional empathy combined with a good moral code can contain how someone behaves a lot.

Some people deal with lack in cognitive empathy others emotional and some both. Some have no moral code, some are rageful or sadistic and some aren't. One person without emotional empathy may play with peoples minds a bit at work and another become a serial killer.
___________________
Thats the factual stuff. Then we get to what I think you are getting at and which I relate to. I am overly empathic in both ways (which I think comes with its own issues) and I have truly struggled to understand sadistic cruel behaviour. In fact any intent to cause harm. I just cannot get my head around it and spent years reading up on empathy and other issues to try to get a handle on it. I realised part of the obsession was trying to see how to protect myself. What helped me was to truly accept that human beings come in many flavours. I don;t have to like all of them (??) but it is a reality if I like it or not. Its very painful I know. Getting joy out of someone elses suffering is something my brain cannot contain. I wonder if it wouldn't be more helpful for you to discuss lack of caring or sadistic intent as that will steer away from all the generalisations.

If we do look at psychopathic perps it was interesting for me to realise a lot of things are done to relieve boredom. Horrific but it almost helps me a bit. Someone knowing understanding and feeling yet doing is somehow more awful to me. I am back in the horror of how is that possible.

In truth too some people only have space for themselves in their brains. Everyone around them is irrelevant unless they are useful in some way. ?

 

[lostforgottensoul]

I'm empathic to a fault. I think some call it an "empath" maybe? I feel other's pain. When they hurt, I hurt. And this can really have an effect on my own mental health and even level of functioning. It's really to a fault. And, most times it really sucks. I can get to that really super dark place all due to someone else's hurt. It sucks. Makes me great at my job but sucks nonetheless.

I also cannot comprehend pleasure from someone's pain. There is no please in anyone's pain for me. I am not resentful in a want to hurt someone sort of way. I do hold hurting "grudges", if you will, but that's just my hurt. Not necessarly a grudge as one would normally see it. But I never would want that person in pain. I lash out but again, generally from hurt or anxiety, never to hurt them.

I give everyone anything I have. Also another fault. I am an easy doormat that has been used many times by many people. My ex roommates took advantge of this in everyway possible.

I'm not sure if I'm describing empathy. I am describing what it is in my own life. I also have not found a way to control the hurting for others and it taking me down as well. Wish I could as that truely sucks.

I went down the road of trying to understand the psychopath perp of mine in therapy and came to the conclusion that my brain just does not have the ability to understand that sort of lack of caring for others and pleasure from the pain of others. Not for a lack of trying though. It just ended up with more questions in the end to be honest. Is it worth even trying? Not really. I mean, you can define it but can someone that has empathy really understand those that don't? I don't think so. Beyond the defintions and what not, if you feel for others I don't think your brain can really grasp the inability to. You know?

 

[Ronin]

Beyond the defintions and what not, if you feel for others I don't think your brain can really grasp the inability to. You know?

Why, though?
I mean, just because I like green more does not mean I would not understand there are people that prefer dark brown.
Same thing to me, traits wise. They are simply variations of feeling and thinking of things, or, people and feelings toward people. Not such a huge, irreconcilable, entirely something else, difference.

And, strictly from the logic of being So Empathic....
That would ALSO mean you can be empathic to variants of where there is not empathy.
That you CAN imagine it, more than imagine it: feel it for yourself (or, notfeel, while at it.)
Just because you can put yourself to quite many a shoe, no matter how it does not fit your usual.

& Re. abuse and graces> IMHO there are so many situations being well meaning, wanting just the best for the other person can be quite a disaster, and not *always* optimal, either.

 

[Abstract]

And, strictly from the logic of being So Empathic....
That would ALSO mean you can be empathic to variants of where there is not empathy.
That you CAN imagine it, more than imagine it: feel it for yourself (or, not feel, while at it.)

That was relevant for me. I realised this. I realised I to a certain extent was not being empathic and was rather projecting. Projecting my perspective on others motivations thoughts etc. In many situations. In fact often giving people better motivations than they had. I think it can partly be a protective habit. Starting off being a way of avoiding the reality of what is occurring when on the receiving end of harm. A way of keeping one from being less engaged.
In truth I think these thoughts are usually rather about struggling to understand how people can get pleasure in doing harm. Its too far away from my own experiences for me to fully empathise.

The lack of care for others goes solidly against the instinct of human beings to connect.(cognitive empathy is a seperate issue IMO.) Its taken a lot of time for me to truly accept humans do have that instinct to engage and need to do so to truly be happy but, cognitively at least, I now do.

I have also felt feelingless and dissociated and felt as if this was absent in me but on confronting that belief realised that understanding was still there underneath the rest.

I am non judgemental from an objective perspective (other than personal situations and trauma) when it comes to those who for example can feel cognitive empathy (pointing out this is so not the situation for those on the spectrum - I really can see how that would be), can figure people out but feel zero compassion. It makes me sad for them and those all around them. I just don't want to be on the receiving end of any collateral damage related to it. I also always see everything through the lens of not knowing how I would be in a different set of circumstances when growing up. Suspect so much is involved and not just how awful things are or not. Human beings are complex. We happen upon ways of being. Who knows what I would have happened upon in a different set of circumstances or with different biology. What people want to be is important to me and what they do. How they behave. Even more respect if that behaviour comes with an extra set of challenges.