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anthony
Founder
@NovemberStar I think there are far better screening methods today, than 20 years ago, for diagnoses. Sure... they're still an analytical guesstimation, but better than where they were 20 years ago.
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NovemberStar
Platinum Member
@anthony -I'm confused - I think I will have to find that one article I was referring to, to explain why it is I thought CPTSD was a combination of PTSD and BPD … to explain the overlap I perceived from that article ….
I did have the symptoms back then of PTSD - but I was not able to say I am having flashbacks' because I was not asked any questions that would leave them to know that is what I was experiencing, and because I did not now that is what I was experiencing. They never considered PTSD, they only thought BPD - hence why they never questioned me in such a way as to EXCLUDE PTSD. If that makes sense? They were never looking for it, so never found it - but I did have the symptoms back then.
Nowdays, I am more able to articulate what is happening - although that is very difficult lately, as the dissociation / depersonalization I'm experiencing is pretty bad.
With regards to 'ongoing traumatic' and 'PTSD' post traumatic, that makes a lot of sense! What I am experiencing is however linked to one particular traumatic incident. The main flashbacks I've ten having since July last year are all relating to one particular day / event; one episode where I was traumatized. So if there is a differentiation between a one off incident and PTSD versus ongoing trauma, then I probably have both. All very confusing though.
I did have the symptoms back then of PTSD - but I was not able to say I am having flashbacks' because I was not asked any questions that would leave them to know that is what I was experiencing, and because I did not now that is what I was experiencing. They never considered PTSD, they only thought BPD - hence why they never questioned me in such a way as to EXCLUDE PTSD. If that makes sense? They were never looking for it, so never found it - but I did have the symptoms back then.
Nowdays, I am more able to articulate what is happening - although that is very difficult lately, as the dissociation / depersonalization I'm experiencing is pretty bad.
With regards to 'ongoing traumatic' and 'PTSD' post traumatic, that makes a lot of sense! What I am experiencing is however linked to one particular traumatic incident. The main flashbacks I've ten having since July last year are all relating to one particular day / event; one episode where I was traumatized. So if there is a differentiation between a one off incident and PTSD versus ongoing trauma, then I probably have both. All very confusing though.
NovemberStar
Platinum Member
I would hope so - pretty awful. They didn't even do a full assessment on me - other than rule out I didn't hear voices, or had episodes of bi-ploar. As I said, any young woman aged 25 or under, presenting in crisis who had a history of abuse and who cut herself, was instantly BPD. And treated accordingly (ignored for fear of 'encouraging manipulative, attention seeking behavior' ;( ). They knew I had witnessed the sudden death of my mother (which, contrary to the movies where they show a heart attack as being 'clutch your heart and fall over', a heart attack is a pretty violent way to die -and took several minutes), yet never considered trauma as a basis of my issues? Very strange.
- Post starter
- #52
D
Deleted member 1860
My last post in this thread was actually answered yesterday in one of the other CPTSD threads. (I can't seem to keep up with them all!) My apologies!
Butterflywings
Bronze Member
NovemberStar I love your post! You've pretty much described my situation personally and what I've witnessed too. Pretty much every young woman who has self harmed and ever been abused in any way has the BPD labelled slapped on them. Even when self harm is the only one of the nine DSM-IV criteria the have. Sadly I still see some professionals do that now. For the poor person with the labelled slapped on them, it can take YEARS to make professionals realise they got it wrong.
It's even worse for women with aspergers because the black and white thinking of aspergers is often mistaken for the black and white thinking of BPD even though the two are not remotely the same. A person with aspergers has black and white thinking from a logical perspective - their views do not change (never try to get an aspie to try and change their mind, you'd have more luck banging your head on a wall). A person with BPD has black and white thinking from a perspective that is entire illogical - one minute they love you, one minute they hate you, next they can love you again - people, interests, whatever.... a person with aspergers is unchanging, a person with BPD can change a dozen times in less than a minute. Unfortunately some less than intelligent professionals think "black and white" thinking itself is a BPD criteria when in reality the actual criteria (forget the wording but something like flipping between severe idealising and severe devaluing) basically means flipping between black and white rather than be locked into black and white.
Since women with aspergers present a lot differently from men, a huge number of women with aspergers end up misdiagnosed as BPD for many years due to the black and white thinking and self harm during meltdowns.
Basically the way you've worded it "70% of those diagnosed with BPD meet the criteria for CPTSD" says it's all. It's not saying 70% of those with BPD also have CPTSD, it's more likely that a hell of a lot of people diagnosed with BPD actually do not. It's what I'd like to do my PhD on one day - the exact percentage of women diagnosed with BPD who actually have been misdiagnosed. I'd say the total figure is at least 90%. That most of those labelled as BPD actually have either bipolar, or PTSD, or aspergers (now known as ASD). And that women who have two or three out of BPAD, PTSD and ASD, are pretty guaranteed to be accidently misdiagnosed for years.
Of course BPD is real. I've met people who genuinely have it (I was married to one!) but only a tiny fraction of those labelled with it actually have it.
Your experience is so similar to mine. Except I didn't have therapy. I buried the trauma and since my PTSD was heavily tied in with an episode of major depression (with my bipolar disorder), once I got medicated, the combination of medication and blocking out the trauma meant I was able to function great in every single way except for social anxiety which is not part of BPD anyway and my social anxiety has been my entire life. One of my therapists I've seen in the past believes it's due to asperger traits (hence why I'm trying to get a full aspergers assessment to see whether I have aspergers or just traits), that my social anxiety stems from the difficulty reading people socially that comes with aspergers.
For five years I was symptom free except for a brief approx one month period where I got depressed when moving interstate (again why my therapist thinks I have aspergers, with struggling to deal with huge changes). And then all of a sudden it hit me literally overnight - the depression and PTSD came back massively suddenly with no warning. It's been diagnosed as being a combination of biology and trauma - the pregnancy hormones seem to have negated my medications, and being pregnant released all the PTSD from my first birth and the abuse that followed when I sought help for the simple PTSD from the birth.
Like you, if I had BPD, I wouldn't be able to deal with my job. I spent quite a number of years working as a nurse not in mental health. My job was always stressful (combination of working in high care aged and surgical wards) between the frequency at which my elderly patients died (many who had become like family) and the stress of the decisions in life threatening situations in surgical care, no way could someone with BPD cut it. And even though I felt grief when someone died, it was a normal strength reaction, like how someone with the thin skin of BPD would react. Never did I feel like hurting myself because of it. Even when I began working in mental health, I didn't have any trouble coping (beyond the social anxiety of a new work environment) until the day this episode started last year.
Part of why I was misdiagnosed was because apparently making polite complaints about the abuse I suffered a decade ago meant I was "acting out". Calmly making valid complaints meant I was accused of "devaluing staff", but politely thanking those who treated me respectfully (as the hospital constantly pushes patients to do, even sending them feedback forms pushing you to be complimentary) means I was accused of "idealising other staff". Once you get the label, perfectly normal behaviours that even with no mental illness at all do, were deliberately twisted to fit their diagnosis.
What you've said is what I said for a decade about my misdiagnosis to the idiot service who misdiagnosed me and won't change my diagnosis (despite many letters from therapists including one who saw me fortnightly for 8 years). That what you've said is exactly why it's not BPD. BPD doesn't have discrete episodes like that. It is steady. It can "go into remission" but it's a long gradual process and doesn't come back in episodes. PTSD on the other hand does. It can go away for many years and then come severely overnight with a trigger. For me, mine was the combo of the pregnancy hormones setting off the depression which in turned triggered the PTSD, and the 8 month battle with the health service where I was abused to get my medical records (and putting my baby and my life at risk again) was the final straw.
I agree with you that CPTSD is simply a qualifier to make sense of experience. I didn't even initially have CPTSD. When I first sought professional help 12 yeas ago, I had non-complex PTSD. It was from the simple trauma of my older daughter's birth. Both are PTSD, but the symptoms expressed themselves slightly different in me. Unfortunately this time the two traumas (the birth and the abuse that followed) have become so entwined that it's made things even more difficult for me to get treatment.
It's even worse for women with aspergers because the black and white thinking of aspergers is often mistaken for the black and white thinking of BPD even though the two are not remotely the same. A person with aspergers has black and white thinking from a logical perspective - their views do not change (never try to get an aspie to try and change their mind, you'd have more luck banging your head on a wall). A person with BPD has black and white thinking from a perspective that is entire illogical - one minute they love you, one minute they hate you, next they can love you again - people, interests, whatever.... a person with aspergers is unchanging, a person with BPD can change a dozen times in less than a minute. Unfortunately some less than intelligent professionals think "black and white" thinking itself is a BPD criteria when in reality the actual criteria (forget the wording but something like flipping between severe idealising and severe devaluing) basically means flipping between black and white rather than be locked into black and white.
Since women with aspergers present a lot differently from men, a huge number of women with aspergers end up misdiagnosed as BPD for many years due to the black and white thinking and self harm during meltdowns.
Basically the way you've worded it "70% of those diagnosed with BPD meet the criteria for CPTSD" says it's all. It's not saying 70% of those with BPD also have CPTSD, it's more likely that a hell of a lot of people diagnosed with BPD actually do not. It's what I'd like to do my PhD on one day - the exact percentage of women diagnosed with BPD who actually have been misdiagnosed. I'd say the total figure is at least 90%. That most of those labelled as BPD actually have either bipolar, or PTSD, or aspergers (now known as ASD). And that women who have two or three out of BPAD, PTSD and ASD, are pretty guaranteed to be accidently misdiagnosed for years.
Of course BPD is real. I've met people who genuinely have it (I was married to one!) but only a tiny fraction of those labelled with it actually have it.
Your experience is so similar to mine. Except I didn't have therapy. I buried the trauma and since my PTSD was heavily tied in with an episode of major depression (with my bipolar disorder), once I got medicated, the combination of medication and blocking out the trauma meant I was able to function great in every single way except for social anxiety which is not part of BPD anyway and my social anxiety has been my entire life. One of my therapists I've seen in the past believes it's due to asperger traits (hence why I'm trying to get a full aspergers assessment to see whether I have aspergers or just traits), that my social anxiety stems from the difficulty reading people socially that comes with aspergers.
For five years I was symptom free except for a brief approx one month period where I got depressed when moving interstate (again why my therapist thinks I have aspergers, with struggling to deal with huge changes). And then all of a sudden it hit me literally overnight - the depression and PTSD came back massively suddenly with no warning. It's been diagnosed as being a combination of biology and trauma - the pregnancy hormones seem to have negated my medications, and being pregnant released all the PTSD from my first birth and the abuse that followed when I sought help for the simple PTSD from the birth.
Like you, if I had BPD, I wouldn't be able to deal with my job. I spent quite a number of years working as a nurse not in mental health. My job was always stressful (combination of working in high care aged and surgical wards) between the frequency at which my elderly patients died (many who had become like family) and the stress of the decisions in life threatening situations in surgical care, no way could someone with BPD cut it. And even though I felt grief when someone died, it was a normal strength reaction, like how someone with the thin skin of BPD would react. Never did I feel like hurting myself because of it. Even when I began working in mental health, I didn't have any trouble coping (beyond the social anxiety of a new work environment) until the day this episode started last year.
Part of why I was misdiagnosed was because apparently making polite complaints about the abuse I suffered a decade ago meant I was "acting out". Calmly making valid complaints meant I was accused of "devaluing staff", but politely thanking those who treated me respectfully (as the hospital constantly pushes patients to do, even sending them feedback forms pushing you to be complimentary) means I was accused of "idealising other staff". Once you get the label, perfectly normal behaviours that even with no mental illness at all do, were deliberately twisted to fit their diagnosis.
What you've said is what I said for a decade about my misdiagnosis to the idiot service who misdiagnosed me and won't change my diagnosis (despite many letters from therapists including one who saw me fortnightly for 8 years). That what you've said is exactly why it's not BPD. BPD doesn't have discrete episodes like that. It is steady. It can "go into remission" but it's a long gradual process and doesn't come back in episodes. PTSD on the other hand does. It can go away for many years and then come severely overnight with a trigger. For me, mine was the combo of the pregnancy hormones setting off the depression which in turned triggered the PTSD, and the 8 month battle with the health service where I was abused to get my medical records (and putting my baby and my life at risk again) was the final straw.
I agree with you that CPTSD is simply a qualifier to make sense of experience. I didn't even initially have CPTSD. When I first sought professional help 12 yeas ago, I had non-complex PTSD. It was from the simple trauma of my older daughter's birth. Both are PTSD, but the symptoms expressed themselves slightly different in me. Unfortunately this time the two traumas (the birth and the abuse that followed) have become so entwined that it's made things even more difficult for me to get treatment.
Butterflywings
Bronze Member
Exactly what I've been saying for a decade too. You've spot on described the difference between Axis 1 and Axis 2 disorders and how to tell them apart. Why if a person has their symptoms only during episodes of PTSD (or bipolar or other Axis 1 disorder) then it is NOT a personality disorder. That personality disorders never go away, they only become manageable. ie there is no true remission. Where things like PTSD and bipolar do go into true remission if treated. Although some poor unfortunate people do not have full remissions in between episodes but even then, that doesn't mean they have a personality disorder if their symptoms can be full explained by their Axis 1 disorder. (one of the many reasons I dislike the DSM-5, for them having ditched the Axis system).
Butterflywings
Bronze Member
Novemberstar I swear you must be my long lost twin!
I was initially denied medication, then I was put on SSRIs (the WORST thing possible for someone with bipolar like myself). My severe adverse reaction was attacked as attention seeking (I'd be dead if a registrar hadn't picked up that my reaction was actually quite normal for a person with bipolar put on zoloft and no mood stabiliser - he was the one who had actually tried to saw weeks earlier that I had bipolar and was ignored - unfortunately his telling off of the nurse who called me an attention seeker to my face over it only inflamed the situation).
Like you, me reporting my suicidal thoughts was dismissed as manipulation and lying (got my medical records a few weeks ago and that is frequently used). It got so bad that I actually developed psychoses - I had started hearing a voice telling me to hurt myself and kill myself but after keeping it to myself for months because I was scared I would be locked up for being psychotic, I opened up to a registrar who kept at me to tell her what I was holding back and after getting my file a few weeks ago, she has written that my claims of "psychotic symptoms" were purely to manipulate her to put me into hospital - when I was 100% truthful and I was terrified of being put into hospital for it and was so glad when she didn't! What's worse is she was one of the people I trusted and even kind of liked because she was polite to my face and hid what she really thought of me. (she did apologise a few years after those notes were written for not believing me about "things" - now I know part of why she apologised as she eventually had realised I wasn't making it up).
Do you know what the irony is? She dismissed my claims of hearing a voice because of her belief that "people with BPD don't have psychotic symptoms" (and because to believe me, meant she thought she'd have to believe my real diagnosis of bipolar) when in her ignorance she was unaware that even those who genuinely have BPD actually do suffer from psychotic symptoms. ie the irony is, she disbelieved a symptoms of my bipolar, which many sufferers of BPD also have, purely because she refused to consider I have bipolar and thought it would disprove my misdiagnosis to believe me.
And don't even get me started on the crisis telephone team. I'll stop with the time I was told to "just **** off and die" by one. Or when I woke up in intensive care after a suicide attempt (where the medical head of ICU said that if the ambos had got to me hospital literally even one minute later I wouldn't have made it) after three days in a coma, only to freak out and want to go home and finish the job... after horrific interrogation by the psych, as soon as she stop interrogating me, I told my nurse I was leaving. He got the doctor, who said if I left then I'd only have a 50% chance of living (and that wasn't even taking into account my plan to go home and kill myself which the psych had bullied out of me), and the psych said "if she wants to go home and die, let her". The doctor (this is a top consultant, an older gentleman who looked tough as nails) actually started crying, begging the psych to not let me discharge myself against medical advice to which she replied over and over about if I wanted to die, just let me. Oh and then there was the abuser who started it all, and he actually put it in writing for a court case that ensued that he would let me die rather than treat me - yet the hospital allowed him to remain my treating doctor for three years after he made that written statement.
and what's worse? he repeatedly admitted to my face he knew I didn't have BPD, but didn't want to admit to his colleagues he'd made a mistake (and he was a narcissistic jerk). He was the one with a genuine personality disorder (any of his colleagues that weren't scared of him would admit he had NPD). And one only has to read reviews of him online to see he is still the same narcissistic jerk.
You've pretty much just described how my CPTSD developed. I don't care if people can't acknowledge there is a difference. I know from having four distinct "types" of PTSD there is a difference. in 1999 I had PTSD from a car accident. In 2001, I had PTSD from nearly dying during labour. In 2002 I had PTSD from a sexual assault. In 2002-2007 I also had complex PTSD from the psychiatric abuse I suffered when seeking help for the birth trauma and then later the sexual assault. Ultimately, all four "types" fall into the PTSD symptoms. Some more caused nightmares, others more caused flashbacks, others caused more avoidance of the situation etc. But all four "types" met the criteria for PTSD. But the difference being how each PTSD episode had different symptoms being more of an issue. And while I do not think anyone can do the "my PTSD is worse than yours", I do think everyone within themselves can say "this episode of mine is worse than this other episode of mine" and for me the complex trauma PTSD episode was by far the most damaging. Because I couldn't escape the trauma. I couldn't get away from the abuse. For someone else, they may find a different type of PTSD worse in them, but for me, it was the worst I experienced.
Like you November star, even now, I struggle to articulate what happens to me. Partly due to dissociation, and partly because I've had a lifetime of it having been beaten into me (both literally and metaphorically) that even if you're deeply depressed and suicidal that I must smile and pretend I'm fine. Even today when a professional (my daughter's child health nurse) called to check on my mental state when she asked how I was, I automatically replied "fine thanks and you?" because it's all I know how to do. Thankfully I can write how I really feel and I was able to text her back a few minutes later and say I'm really not fine at all. So not fine that she wants me to go to hospital. But I can't. that's too traumatising for me.
But because the terrible abuse I suffered a decade ago when seeking help for my depression and PTSD, I can't open up to professionals about how bad I'm feeling so I frequently fine that even those who can see I'm having an episode of major depression do not see the depths of it as I hide it so well for fear of getting abused again.
I know that if my bipolar/post natal depressive episode and birth trauma PTSD had been treated instead of ignored instead of my abuser waltzing a few months after I sought help and slapping the BPD label onto me (and every staff member at that service ignoring the multiple staff I'd seen before then who said I definitely had bipolar and PTSD and social anxiety, and instead only saw the BPD label and ignored everything else and tried to shoe horn me into that label) then I never would have developed the CPTSD. I wouldn't have ever attempted suicide, I wouldn't have an ongoing heart problem from my suicide attempt a decade ago, I wouldn't have self harm scars (because even though I had thoughts of self harm, I only actually self harmed after the abuse started) and I wouldn't be suffering another episode of post natal depression and PTSD now.
I was initially denied medication, then I was put on SSRIs (the WORST thing possible for someone with bipolar like myself). My severe adverse reaction was attacked as attention seeking (I'd be dead if a registrar hadn't picked up that my reaction was actually quite normal for a person with bipolar put on zoloft and no mood stabiliser - he was the one who had actually tried to saw weeks earlier that I had bipolar and was ignored - unfortunately his telling off of the nurse who called me an attention seeker to my face over it only inflamed the situation).
Like you, me reporting my suicidal thoughts was dismissed as manipulation and lying (got my medical records a few weeks ago and that is frequently used). It got so bad that I actually developed psychoses - I had started hearing a voice telling me to hurt myself and kill myself but after keeping it to myself for months because I was scared I would be locked up for being psychotic, I opened up to a registrar who kept at me to tell her what I was holding back and after getting my file a few weeks ago, she has written that my claims of "psychotic symptoms" were purely to manipulate her to put me into hospital - when I was 100% truthful and I was terrified of being put into hospital for it and was so glad when she didn't! What's worse is she was one of the people I trusted and even kind of liked because she was polite to my face and hid what she really thought of me. (she did apologise a few years after those notes were written for not believing me about "things" - now I know part of why she apologised as she eventually had realised I wasn't making it up).
Do you know what the irony is? She dismissed my claims of hearing a voice because of her belief that "people with BPD don't have psychotic symptoms" (and because to believe me, meant she thought she'd have to believe my real diagnosis of bipolar) when in her ignorance she was unaware that even those who genuinely have BPD actually do suffer from psychotic symptoms. ie the irony is, she disbelieved a symptoms of my bipolar, which many sufferers of BPD also have, purely because she refused to consider I have bipolar and thought it would disprove my misdiagnosis to believe me.
And don't even get me started on the crisis telephone team. I'll stop with the time I was told to "just **** off and die" by one. Or when I woke up in intensive care after a suicide attempt (where the medical head of ICU said that if the ambos had got to me hospital literally even one minute later I wouldn't have made it) after three days in a coma, only to freak out and want to go home and finish the job... after horrific interrogation by the psych, as soon as she stop interrogating me, I told my nurse I was leaving. He got the doctor, who said if I left then I'd only have a 50% chance of living (and that wasn't even taking into account my plan to go home and kill myself which the psych had bullied out of me), and the psych said "if she wants to go home and die, let her". The doctor (this is a top consultant, an older gentleman who looked tough as nails) actually started crying, begging the psych to not let me discharge myself against medical advice to which she replied over and over about if I wanted to die, just let me. Oh and then there was the abuser who started it all, and he actually put it in writing for a court case that ensued that he would let me die rather than treat me - yet the hospital allowed him to remain my treating doctor for three years after he made that written statement.
and what's worse? he repeatedly admitted to my face he knew I didn't have BPD, but didn't want to admit to his colleagues he'd made a mistake (and he was a narcissistic jerk). He was the one with a genuine personality disorder (any of his colleagues that weren't scared of him would admit he had NPD). And one only has to read reviews of him online to see he is still the same narcissistic jerk.
You've pretty much just described how my CPTSD developed. I don't care if people can't acknowledge there is a difference. I know from having four distinct "types" of PTSD there is a difference. in 1999 I had PTSD from a car accident. In 2001, I had PTSD from nearly dying during labour. In 2002 I had PTSD from a sexual assault. In 2002-2007 I also had complex PTSD from the psychiatric abuse I suffered when seeking help for the birth trauma and then later the sexual assault. Ultimately, all four "types" fall into the PTSD symptoms. Some more caused nightmares, others more caused flashbacks, others caused more avoidance of the situation etc. But all four "types" met the criteria for PTSD. But the difference being how each PTSD episode had different symptoms being more of an issue. And while I do not think anyone can do the "my PTSD is worse than yours", I do think everyone within themselves can say "this episode of mine is worse than this other episode of mine" and for me the complex trauma PTSD episode was by far the most damaging. Because I couldn't escape the trauma. I couldn't get away from the abuse. For someone else, they may find a different type of PTSD worse in them, but for me, it was the worst I experienced.
Like you November star, even now, I struggle to articulate what happens to me. Partly due to dissociation, and partly because I've had a lifetime of it having been beaten into me (both literally and metaphorically) that even if you're deeply depressed and suicidal that I must smile and pretend I'm fine. Even today when a professional (my daughter's child health nurse) called to check on my mental state when she asked how I was, I automatically replied "fine thanks and you?" because it's all I know how to do. Thankfully I can write how I really feel and I was able to text her back a few minutes later and say I'm really not fine at all. So not fine that she wants me to go to hospital. But I can't. that's too traumatising for me.
But because the terrible abuse I suffered a decade ago when seeking help for my depression and PTSD, I can't open up to professionals about how bad I'm feeling so I frequently fine that even those who can see I'm having an episode of major depression do not see the depths of it as I hide it so well for fear of getting abused again.
I know that if my bipolar/post natal depressive episode and birth trauma PTSD had been treated instead of ignored instead of my abuser waltzing a few months after I sought help and slapping the BPD label onto me (and every staff member at that service ignoring the multiple staff I'd seen before then who said I definitely had bipolar and PTSD and social anxiety, and instead only saw the BPD label and ignored everything else and tried to shoe horn me into that label) then I never would have developed the CPTSD. I wouldn't have ever attempted suicide, I wouldn't have an ongoing heart problem from my suicide attempt a decade ago, I wouldn't have self harm scars (because even though I had thoughts of self harm, I only actually self harmed after the abuse started) and I wouldn't be suffering another episode of post natal depression and PTSD now.
- Post starter
- #56
D
Deleted member 1860
@Butterflywings,
Your sweeping generalizations of those with borderline personality disorder and aspergers disorder are a bit scary, especially given that you're a professional in the world of psychology.
Your sweeping generalizations of those with borderline personality disorder and aspergers disorder are a bit scary, especially given that you're a professional in the world of psychology.
Butterflywings
Bronze Member
I had a full assessment done. Was diagnosed as having bipolar and social anxiety definitely and they thought I may have PTSD from the birth trauma but wanted to explore it more before making the diagnosis concrete. Unfortunately a few months later the narcissistic pig abuser who was second in charge of the whole service is one of those who believes "All young women who even think of self harm have BPD" and who abuses young patients swept in and ruined my life. I've found other victims of his, but couldn't encourage any to speak up. My first husband tried, but he was then abused too.
Everyone I saw after that knew my problems had started following the traumatic birth of my daughter where she and I both nearly died. They knew I wasn't sleeping due to hypervigilance of having to check she was breathing every few minutes because I was so scared of her dying. Not able to let anyone look after her (with the exception of my grandmother) for fear of her dying etc. I was the very definition of PTSD. But being a young woman with thoughts of self harm (and a history of self harm for several months four years prior during my previous severe episode of depression) and my admission that I was physically abused as a child by my bipolar mother and bullied at school, even though my episodes had very clear, discrete timeframes, my diagnosis was changed from bipolar to BPD.
What hurts me is they drew up a management plan, refused to allow my treating psychiatrist of years to have any input, refused to allow me or my family any input, refused to allow my GP who I'd been seeing for a decade when I first started seeing the health service, refused to allow anyone else involved in my care any input at all into it. Like you, it actually says to refuse me treatment for fear of encouraging manipulative behaviour. The most hurtful thing? It says if I attempted to kill myself, that I was to be punished [not their word, they used "treated"] by being discharged immediately I was medically cleared and to be denied any psychiatric follow up and that if I called I was to be hung up on, and if I presented, security were to escort me away and it actually says "to ensure she seeks appropriate help before such behaviour".... and defines appropriate help as calling the crisis team or presenting at hospital for a 24 hour admission. They were well aware that I would not go to a hospital for a 24 hour admission because I would feel just as suicidal 24 hours later and that being sent home after seeing other people with depression being treated me and me even more depressed suicidal being discharged would be the final straw to make me attempt suicide, and that EVERY SINGLE TIME that I self harmed or attempted suicide I DID call and ask for help first and was told I was just attention seeking and literally hung up on every single time (after being told I was wasting their time and they had "real mentally ill people to deal with"). So to punish me for attempting suicide claiming it would somehow "make" me call or present to hospital first when every single time I HAD called or gone to hospital first just showed their management plan was not real.
How would punishing me by cutting me off from support after a suicide attempt make me feel safe to seek help before one anyway? and the fact was I did seek help every time before one and was denied help so how would punishing me after remotely make me want to ask for help before when I knew I was going to be denied it?? I did it anyway, begged for help every time before because I just kept thinking maybe if I did every single little thing they asked, right down to every exact detail, maybe the abuse would stop. But it never did. I did everything they asked and more, but the abuse never stopped - right up until I just realised I would never ever get help and that I had to hide the self harm and pretend I was ok to protect my daughter. And within about 6 months of walking away from them and hiding the self harm, once the ongoing trauma stopped and I had some space to heal, the feeling of wanting to self harm and the depression lifted - I should also say my private psych was doing therapy with me too and she'd started me on a combination of high doses of three different psych meds, so the combination of high doses of three meds, therapy and getting away from the abuse meant I was able to heal.
But I've met so many people like myself - bipolar, tipped over the edge by a single incident PTSD, misdiagnosed as BPD, abused for it, and then driven to the point where they want to die. Three years ago it cost the life of a dear friend of mine. She'd been diagnosed for 20 years with bipolar. Then some idiot decided to label her as BPD, she got abused by the same health service I did, and she was "better" at attempting suicide than I was and after a few months of suicide attempts, she died.
Anyway november star, I actually did have a full assessment, it was known I had episodes of bipolar (huge episode of depression in 1997, long manic episode in 1999, a few other small but still "major" episodes of depression and hypomanic episodes as well), and I actually also had begun hearing voices by 2003 due to the ongoing trauma and untreated depression, but my major depressive episode was repeatedly just dismissed as "dysthymia" and false claims that it would pass in a few hours or a day or two at most (not true at all) because my ridiculous management plan said that if I had a major depressive episode that I would be hospitalised and not denied treatment, but unless it was MDE I could only have short (24 hours four times a month - originally 24 hours and then kicked out, up to four times a month, but then changed to those 4 x24 hours could be in a row) admissions if I told them I was suicidal but the reality is, MDE do not go away after even 4 days. I would go into hospital depressed, I would be booted out after a few days just as depressed, and being booted out and being told "now you can't have any contact with our service for another 26 days" made me even more depressed and suicidal. By claiming my major depressive episode was "only dysthymia" and the "transient mood of BPD", the justified their abuse of me, by denying me treatment for the MDE. I didn't even know my management plan said they had to treat me if I had MDE (there was a second page they hid from me which was only accidently released to me in my file despite having written on it "never allow client access to this page") otherwise I would have got my GP and private psychiatrist to drill into them I was having a severe MDE and to stop denying me treatment (they were unaware of the hidden page of my management plan too).
That's the danger of being misdiagnosed with BPD. If you have severe depression, they act like it's minor and transient and will pass in a few hours (or 1-2 days max) and therefore deny you access to inpatient treatment, outpatient medications, outpatient therapy and more. And denying someone having a severe depressive episode access to hospital, medication and therapy is a recipe for death. As I mentioned, it cost the life of a dear friend and it nearly cost me mine.
It's why my passion is misdiagnoses - because I've seen what happens to those who are misdiagnosed in Queensland. It's messed up. I'm glad I don't live there anymore. But all my loved ones do and it's why as well as my career here where I live now, I lobby for changes to the system in Qld so no one else goes through what I and others I care about have been through.
Kas_Can_Fly
Diamond Member
@Butterflywings I thought PTSD varied from ASD (Acute Stress Disorder) in the fact that it is currently incurable, it even permanently changes the genes of the sufferer. You may heal from the trauma, but you will always be more sensitive to stress and retraumatisation which could worsen symptoms again. You talk about PTSD coming and going in phases when it is a permanent underlying condition that can be maintained and treated is this what you mean? Or do you mean that you've had PTSD for a long time and have been retraumatised with different traumas after? Sorry, I'm confused.
Butterflywings
Bronze Member
To what sweeping generalisations do you refer? keep in mind I don't see aspergers as a negative thing. It is simply different way of thinking. I have a father, three siblings, a daughter and my second husband all with aspergers and I have asperger traits myself.
Butterflywings
Bronze Member
Kas can fly I've not seen anywhere that says PTSD is incurable. It is much like any other episodic mental condition - some people can go into permanent remission and never have another symptom ever again, others are not so lucky. It depends on your definition of "incurable" I guess. If someone with bipolar or schizophrenia for example has a few episodes and then never has another episode for life, are they cured? They obviously still have the underlying genes for the disorder, but do they still have the disorder?
It was an interesting theory my uni neuroscience lecturer was studying - if someone has the genes for bipolar, is it guaranteed they will develop symptoms or can they live symptom free for life if never going through something that triggers an episode?
Last I heard the question was unanswered. I figure it's much like if someone has the genes for heart disease but devotes their life to staying super fit and healthy and never has heart problems, are they considered to have a heart disorder?
I actually don't have the answer you're asking me other than to say it really depends on your definition of "incurable". I do firmly believe and know that people with episode conditions like bipolar and schizophrenia can get well and not suffer another episode ever again if not triggered. Sadly the more episodes a person has, the more they are likely to have in future. I do believe PTSD is like that. The more times you have it, the more times it wears down your defenses and the more likely you are to have it again. I have seen quite a number of people who just have a single episode and (so far after many years) have not had another. Some have even had 2-3 episodes but for many years have never had another. There just seems to be some kind of tipping point where the more episodes of ANY episodic condition a person has, the more likely they are to have another.
The only major difference between acute stress disorder (Sorry I don't usually use ASD for it... I'm used to using ASD to refer to autistic spectrum disorder) and PTSD is the length of time a person is effected by it. There are other differences but that's the big one. that not everyone who has acute stress disorder develops PTSD but everyone who has PTSD would have met the criteria for acute stress disorder early in their episode.
I'm pretty sure the research shows that trauma (Even in people who don't develop acute stress disorder or PTSD) damages the genes, so it's not the disorder doing the damage, it's the trauma itself.
I do know with my first episode of PTSD, I honestly believe if I had not gone through any other life threatening trauma I would not have had any ongoing issues with PTSD (as the PTSD did not come back when I had antenatal depression in 2001), it was only after nearly dying in late 2001 and then the ongoing trauma in 2002 that I became "permanently affected" or "incurable" if you want to call it that. Although I wouldn't even describe it that way. By 2008 I was symptom free with the exception of avoidance of triggers (but I think that's normal in anyone who has been hurt, not just someone who has had PTSD). I stayed symptom free til last year when I had a few massive triggers in my life.
Again, it really comes down to your definition of "cured". I think if I hadn't had the triggers I had, I wouldn't have had this episode (depression or PTSD) but does that mean I'm cured of either? or is would it have just been there lurking waiting for another trigger? I honestly can't answer that.
It was an interesting theory my uni neuroscience lecturer was studying - if someone has the genes for bipolar, is it guaranteed they will develop symptoms or can they live symptom free for life if never going through something that triggers an episode?
Last I heard the question was unanswered. I figure it's much like if someone has the genes for heart disease but devotes their life to staying super fit and healthy and never has heart problems, are they considered to have a heart disorder?
I actually don't have the answer you're asking me other than to say it really depends on your definition of "incurable". I do firmly believe and know that people with episode conditions like bipolar and schizophrenia can get well and not suffer another episode ever again if not triggered. Sadly the more episodes a person has, the more they are likely to have in future. I do believe PTSD is like that. The more times you have it, the more times it wears down your defenses and the more likely you are to have it again. I have seen quite a number of people who just have a single episode and (so far after many years) have not had another. Some have even had 2-3 episodes but for many years have never had another. There just seems to be some kind of tipping point where the more episodes of ANY episodic condition a person has, the more likely they are to have another.
The only major difference between acute stress disorder (Sorry I don't usually use ASD for it... I'm used to using ASD to refer to autistic spectrum disorder) and PTSD is the length of time a person is effected by it. There are other differences but that's the big one. that not everyone who has acute stress disorder develops PTSD but everyone who has PTSD would have met the criteria for acute stress disorder early in their episode.
I'm pretty sure the research shows that trauma (Even in people who don't develop acute stress disorder or PTSD) damages the genes, so it's not the disorder doing the damage, it's the trauma itself.
I do know with my first episode of PTSD, I honestly believe if I had not gone through any other life threatening trauma I would not have had any ongoing issues with PTSD (as the PTSD did not come back when I had antenatal depression in 2001), it was only after nearly dying in late 2001 and then the ongoing trauma in 2002 that I became "permanently affected" or "incurable" if you want to call it that. Although I wouldn't even describe it that way. By 2008 I was symptom free with the exception of avoidance of triggers (but I think that's normal in anyone who has been hurt, not just someone who has had PTSD). I stayed symptom free til last year when I had a few massive triggers in my life.
Again, it really comes down to your definition of "cured". I think if I hadn't had the triggers I had, I wouldn't have had this episode (depression or PTSD) but does that mean I'm cured of either? or is would it have just been there lurking waiting for another trigger? I honestly can't answer that.
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