What Happens In A Church... Can't Be Talked About With My Therapist?! What?!

[Ivan the Elder]

I totally agree with what you have done. A complaint is fully warranted. That is one of the huge problems I had with the psychiatric ward I was placed in, total invasion of and violation of privacy, both myself and my ex wife. In fact, they are largely responsible for the destruction of our 44 year marriage. Exactly what business does the psychiatrist at the ward have in talking to my wife for at least two hours, once on the phone and once in person without even telling me that she was down at the ward to visit me. I did not sign any waiver of privacy and my ex wife was not the patient so just what the heck did they talk about for two hours? He somehow managed to totally freak her out to the point she had a severe panic attack, she has told me. It was after that first phone call that she planned without thinking to commit Criminal Desertion of me. I am very tempted to sue them for enough money to make it go to the Supreme Court of Canada. I can afford to do it too. I don't want the money, I want them to be exposed so this never happens to anybody else ever again.

 

[Neverthesame]

@seedling yes. Agreed, 100%

@Justmehere I can't possibly say it better than seedling. I think you handled that very well. What they are doing is beyond pathetic.

I think you handled that wonderfully. You stood your ground, without being drawn into a fight. Reporting that woman was absolutely correct. You have avoided the massive emotional overload, without going 180° into the other end of unhealthy, by being a doormat. And in a situation that is just (pardon my language) unf*ckingbelievable. I know I would have lost my mind, and temper, and would likely be handed a restraining order, after peeing in the holy water. Anyways...

Good for you. I think you have done something amazing. Stay patient and kind to yourself. You absolutely deserve it for a job well done.

 

[joeylittle]

When this all first happened, I started calling therapists in a hurry to find one to meet with the church. One of them talked to me on the phone fro about 10 minutes. The next day, I called them all back and told them, nevermind...

The one that I spoke to, Joyce, texted me tonight. She said she emailed "Pastor Tom" about her clinical opinion that the help I need is out of the scope of her practice, and that I had made an appointment with her about this matter, and that I canceled it.

I'm not quite clear here - did she say that you had made an appointment or contacted her about an appointment?

And could you explain 'started calling therapists to find one to meet with the church'? What was the content of the message you left?

I'm asking because I'm actually not sure you are in the right on this one; the details matter, here. If you called a therapist, left a message saying 'My name is justmehere and I am looking for a therapist to mediate between myself and [full name of pastor], my church pastor. He can be reached at [phone number] or , and I can be reached at [phone number]. The situation is, [brief recounting of what happened].'

Following that, if an appointment was confirmed but then cancelled - you aren't her client, and you don't have any privacy protection. Because you named another person - and I'm assuming you must have given out Pastor Tom's contact info, since she emailed him - if the context was that you were speaking on behalf of both of you, there is no reason for her not to contact him directly, and then to inform you of what she said. She's allowed to give whatever opinion she wants.

That's all just hypothetical - but those are the kinds of details that matter here. I think it's important for you to know if you were escalating with or without cause, basically.

 

[Justmehere]

Good questions @joeylittle.

When I called her, she actually answered. It was a few hours after leaving the church last week. We talked for about 20 minutes. She asked some basic history of treatment questions, what happened at the church, what I hoped to get out of meeting. We talked about the work she does to help people with boundaries, and the times that I struggle to keep them.

We scheduled for 5pm this Monday and I initially told the church they could meet me there then. The pastor said she needed to come to the church and age couldn't do that. I called and canceled it and I asked if I could just meet with her alone to talk about meeting with the church in greater detail or have some support walking away. I told her I was very depressed and struggling, and my trauma therapist was ok with me meeting with a Christian therapist who could help me understand churches better. I left this message on Monday morning. I didn't hear back all week, and then I got a text today from her.

The pastor and 2 friends associated with the church called me today. I ignored the pastor and I responded to one of the friends to tell them that the church and I have an unresolved disagreement, they will not allow me back until it is resolved, and we are at an impasse. I can not be there for the forseeable future.

Apparently she was told I would be allowed back if I followed instructions, and that a counselor named Joyce was willing to meet as the church instructed, and she asked, "why won't you just go see Joyce?"

I just froze up and said I was running late and needed to go. Then I hung up.

Hearing from a friend that I'm just not following instructions - that fired me up. It was a hard conversation to have at 7:30 in the morning. Something must have happened for Joyce to then contact me.

It all made me feel so invaded.

I wasn't her client, but I don't need my desire to make or not make an appointment to be public info that my friends can and are finding out about.

Really, it's not her that I am mad at. Or maybe I am.

It does feel like misplaced anger.

 

[Neverthesame]

@joeylittle I don't know very much about the laws governing ethical practice from psychologists. Would it have been a breach of ethics to have not informed JMH immediately that she was a member of the same church, that it would likely be a huge conflict of interest, that she should seek a different therapist?

Edit: Should she also have informed JMH that because there is no confidentiality law she has to follow, she can freely discuss anything said over the phone, with anyone she wants?

 

[Ivan the Elder]

When a doctor speaks to you about anything involving your personal health condition anything you say or discuss is immediately considered to be classified as protected private information. It does not matter if you are actually a patient or ever will be a patient, that information is protected by law. This is the situation here in Canada and it also applies to anybody that is acting in a capacity that in any way involves them dealing with confidential personal medical information or can in any way be construed as such. That definitely includes anything related to your psychiatric condition. It doesn't matter if you were under treatment or had or didn't make any agreement for treatment. The information here is considered as Level "B" classified personal data and may not be given to anybody who is not directly involved in your treatment. It is at the level of nothing more than "Name, rank and serial number" that may be given out. I will assume the law is at least similar enough in the USA that such a law was violated from what you have written. Here it goes much further than just medical information, it also includes finances and just about anything of a personal nature.

It would also include your religious affiliation since that is nobody's business but yours. What makes the difference is when and what conditions you made the information available. It certainly wasn't public. Speaking to a therapist is a situation where your information must remain protected. It doesn't matter if you were actually being treated or not. It is also the same as when consulting with a lawyer. In that respect the therapist should have recused herself the moment she heard who the conversation was about. What she has done is clearly an ethical violation and most likely a legal violation.

 

[Ellabella44]

Its not like you recorded an aa meeting etc where its stated that what is said in the room stays in the room. Understandable that you needed to record to find out what was going on when dissociative. But for them to treat you as if you had a plague they could catch is just silly. PTSD isn't contagious. The situations that gave it to you can't be immediately transfered to others by being near you. I agree not a supportive group especially if friends could give you up on the leader's request.

 

[Justmehere]

I spoke to the licensing board in my state. They are clear that she can not contact anyone and even give them so much my name, let alone that I tried to make an appointment, even if I never ever became a client of hers.

Otherwise, any counselor could then say to anyone, "so and so called me looking for counseling today..."

The person I spoke with said it was not ideal for her to fail to tell me she was a member of the church. They don't know if that is grounds for sanctions or not, and they would have to have the full complaint process occur to determine that.

Federal law bars her from emailing the information she did through non-encrypted email servers without my signed consent to do so. This is not as commonly known by therapists.

I filed a grievance with every agency I could find. I was so mad at the church and this woman for doing this. This should be so ethical and yet the questions around ethics abound and I'm tired of all these we-are-such-good-people helping authority figures TREATING ME LIKE CRAP.

The senior pastor left a voicemail telling me it was wrong to say I was kicked out. "You have been asked to complete a process to be able to return, and if you are unwilling, then that's your choice."

This matter is fueling some serious depression and suicidal thinking today. It's so small, I don't know why it is.

I called the church and stupidly told them I need them to really leave me alone as I am becoming extremely depressed and "I don't want to breathe anymore and I really need you to back off." They complained back that "we have been trying to help you for hours and hours this week." I wanted to scream back at them, JUST STOP DOING THAT. Instead, I hung up. I don't know what I was doing. I don't want to live anymore. I am a burden to society. I really am. I am so depressed, I have not eaten any food in 30 hours. My appetite is so gone, I have only had apple juice. I know I should call my doctor.

 

[scout86]

I believe the technical term for this kind of situation is it's a FUBAR. Anyone who doesn't know what it means can look it up.

Seems like there's a pretty good chance there were and are good intentions all around. (I'm still not fired up about the way the church conducts business, however.) I don't know the law or ethics of the situation. If I were in your position (and, believe me, I can easily imagine being in your position!) I would have wanted the therapist to disclose she was a member of the church, as soon as she knew the situation involved HER church, because it's relevant. It might actually help, but you deserved that bit of information, I think. Considering how the church handles stuff, it also might not help that she's a member, because it sounds like members have to abide by the church's position in all things. It's possible she could have explained the church's position. I'm guessing she contacted the pastor because she knows him and was trying to help. She probably figured that would never come up as an issue. Obviously that's not the way it worked.

As far as reporting her conduct goes, you had a legitimate question/issue and you took it to the proper authorities. At this point, dropping the whole deal and moving on seems like a good option, to me. You won't change these people. They think what they think and they probably always will. That can be ok. (Even if they're wrong.) Getting the whole world totally straightened out and understanding you doesn't HAVE to be part of your job description. Bad things don't have to happen because other people refuse to validate your point of view. It's annoying, but not necessarily dangerous. Just stay away from those people and seek out people who are a better fit.

I just read your last post. Yes, call your doctor. Eat something. Take care of yourself. Your value does NOT depend on them behaving like you wish they would. They aren't that important. Somewhere in this mess, I suspect there's a useful lesson waiting to be uncovered. I know you've mentioned your T wants to deal mainly with "trauma" and not so much daily life. Mine takes the opposite approach. What's happened in the past is a done deal. What matters is how what happened affects life NOW. I think what you've got here is one of the places where past and present collide. I think it would be well worth exploring the hows and whys of that with your .

You are NOT a waste of oxygen! I'd be delighted to share the air in the room with you any day, any time. Take care!

 

[Ronin]

@Justmehere, don't talk to them besides requests to leave you alone, if I may say so. They'll gaslight you and play helpful and mess with you until you break or comply or they're ordered to stop by someone they have to respect, perhaps not even then, and that is not something you need or deserve.

Don't give them the ammo of how you're feeling. At all. I grok feeling compelled to that. But there is no need. It is none of their business.

There is nothing stupid in how you acted, while we're at it. You're not incapable, they're making the situation difficult, and own deciding difficult, but none of that is on you.

Depression and suicidality is completely normal in your sorts of situation, even if one didn't have previous trauma & PTSD issues present.

You are not a burden to the society. You could never be.

 

[Ivan the Elder]

JMH, You have done nothing wrong at all. This is not your fault and you have not caused the things that the other people involved in this have done. What they have done is very much wrong and the best thing for you to do right now is to go see a doctor and get the doctor's help for you. That is one person you can count on right now. The other person you can trust is yourself. Do everything that you should do to help yourself. Have something to eat with some nice tasty calories in it, maybe a chocolate bar. I fully understand how you are feeling. I woke up this morning and found myself crying. I couldn't figure out why for a while until I realized it is almost the date of my ex wife's birthday. I then remembered that I haven't bought her a birthday present. Then I became confused until I fully woke up and remembered she isn't my wife any more. Then I cried some more.

I still don't feel like killing myself, I'm not always sure of that but there is a good reason. So many bad things have happened this year and I started thinking of that and feeling even worse.

Then I got a phone call from the doctor's receptionist who told me I definitely do not have Hep B and that was good news although I already knew that . But she also told me that the upcoming treatment that will cure my Hep C is all moving into place and that was very good news. It will be fully covered as far as cost and that is very good news since the cost is at least $50,000 and could be up to $87,000. I can afford it, just, but if they will pay it then it means I will have money to live on in a far better fashion the rest of my life and my life will be a lot longer than my doctor thought it will be.

So what started as another bad day today suddenly became a good day. That is most likely why I never actually want to kill myself. Even what can seem like the worst day of your life can quickly turn around and you won't even know that it was going to happen.

No matter how bad you feel just remember that it is also still possible to feel good and be happy about something. That is what I always end up reminding my self or somebody else does. One thing that helps me a lot is to start working on a sketch of something pretty, either outside with pencil and paper or even just on my computer.

I was feeling very down a few days ago so I drew this and felt much better. Now I know who I drew it for. It is for you.

 

[Justmehere]

Typing from my phone, and can't type much right now. You all are so kind it makes me cry, in a good way.

It really hit me that my friend is gone and even I'm getting all wrapped up in everything else but grieving that loss.

@scout86 - FUBR. Yep. I had to google that and it fits! I think you are spot on with the rest too. Everyone means well, and it's not something for me to engage.

@Cashew - thank you so much for the encouragement. I dot believe it right now, but it helps to read something kind.

@Evan - I am speechless. Both your story and the drawing moved me deeply. Wow. Thank you.

I still can seem to get or keep food down, but I did get my butt to work. I am super dizzy, and I did have a very minor medical procedure yesterday, and I called my doc, about being so down and depressed. I broke down crying - ugh - and the nurse there scheduled me to come in this afternoon.