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Other What is a sociopath? personality disorders general

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Yourself and other participants in this discussion can review the above posts to verify which posts reference lying, misleading, consequence of banning for such behavior. Prior posts of participants also discuss the use of labels, false labels and the use of non DSM labels CPD was also referenced as a false label. Check the source of derailing please.

I believed that what was being discussed was the use of labels and DSM accuracy in use of such labels. My coments go to the heart of the discussion of using and misappropriating labels. Not off topic IMHO and provided in response to others comments. Thank you for clarifying that comments about accusations of lying is in no way connected to the forums use of the label sociopath.

Please provide the 99 criterion used in diagnosis of sociopathy - back on topic.
 
Yourself and other participants in this discussion can review the above posts to verify which posts reference lying, misleading, consequence of banning for such behavior.
Again, please cite where I said it had to do with sociopathy. Again, "general" in nature about aspects that occur, which has nothing to do with you, or other members, and are staff matters that get dealt with, used in a general context of discussion. It is not up for debate.

Please provide the 99 criterion used in diagnosis of sociopathy - back on topic.
[DLMURL]http://en.datec.nl/ipde/[/DLMURL]

And I will highlight what I also stated in reference to this, this is one of several diagnostic tools that assess personality disorders. They have extensive, indepth questioning though. Some are much longer than the WTO's International assessment.
 
Not debating, requesting review of posts that derailed the conversation.

Also, asking for clarification of general discussion (re-lying) in relation to the topic of this thread sociopathy and labeling. You have clarified no connection exists, and I am satisfied.

Thank you for link to more knowledge, and noted that extensive, in-depth questioning is required with diagnostic tools.
 
Sociopath was in the the DSM III-R but reclassified in DSM IV into the broader category of Antisocial Personality Disorder and recognizable in the DSM IV TR. The World Health Organisation (WHO) ICD-10 categorized as Dissocial Personality Disorder. And, you have noted that DSM V distinguishes it as subcategories which are determined obviously by scales.

Traits and questions used to 'diagnose' these disorders is NOT publically available. Only general information has been provided around these labels and traits mentioned, but degrees of these traits to identify sociopathy is not publicly provided. x


[DLMURL]http://en.datec.nl/ipde/[/DLMURL]
Provides summary of the use of diagnostic tool, not criterion for diagnosis.


In the ICD-10 DPD-sociopathy traits include: disregard for social rules and norms, impulsive behavior, indifference to the rights and feelings of others. The more severe end of the scale of analysis denotes other personality disorder labels (psychopath). Clinical diagnosis of this more severe personality disorder generally use Prof Robert (Bob) Hare's clinical diagnostic tool for extremities. This includes traits such as, lack of empathy or conscience and manipulative behaviors.

Low end of the scales do not provide a diagnosis for a general lesser diagnosis of 'abuser'. The label 'abuser' is not used in APD or DPD classification. Requesting information on diagnostic criteria for the label 'abuser' for comparison purposes (if exists) and to qualify the use and recognition of the label 'abuser' - seeking to ensure appropriate application of this label when used.

Note opinion being provided which is not entirely off topic -- potential exists that 'abusive behaviors' may be trait considered in assessment of the prior mentioned trait such as 'indifference to the rights and feelings of others'. There are research studies in reputable research journals that suggest 'verbal abuse and physical abuse' is possible likely to be linked to sociopathic traits.

Psychiatrists should be the only ones to determine the difference between 'abuser' and 'sociopath'. I would like to think that the 'spirit of the forum and threads' in question are at least considered when anyone makes any accusation about misusing or incorrect labels - more severe (sociopath) or less (abuser).

Unless, some one says they are a psychiatrist and have proximity and access to conduct extensive interviews, they can't label (less or more) anyone, anything. By account of this thread, if a diagnostic label does not exist, you cannot label someone that either - CPTSD does not exist, but neither does just 'abuser'. Maybe clarify / provide a list of the 'labels' that are not be be used in this forum?

Off topic note: Should the terms and conditions (T&C) on this forum be modified, or reasons for 'banning members' be mentioned/ extended/ stipulated by the owners (general conversation or not), then seeking clarification of rules and procedure is generally accepted practice. Any member has the right to seek assurance that members rights (human rights) are being assured (such as equity and fair trial). That, IS my business, don't tell me otherwise. If you choose to tell me that I have no right/ None of my business, to question that, then ban me, because I did not sign up for that.
 
PTSD sufferer, IMHO, you seem to be getting very worked up over this thread, and I don't understand why.

As far as I understand it, anthony was simply making an announcement, asking members not to 'label' people with a mental health diagnosis, where that diagnosis may not be accurate. It seemed to me as simply a 'heads up', to be careful how you 'label' someone who hasn't been diagnosed with a specific condition.

Off topic note: Should the terms and conditions (T&C) on this forum be modified, or reasons for 'banning members' be mentioned/ extended/ stipulated by the owners (general conversation or not), then seeking clarification of rules and procedure is generally accepted practice. Any member has the right to seek assurance that members rights (human rights) are being assured (such as equity and fair trial). That, IS my business, don't tell me otherwise. If you choose to tell me that I have no right/ None of my business, to question that, then ban me, because I did not sign up for that.

As for the terms and conditions of this site etc, as far as I'm aware, the legal policy for this forum is pretty robust. Rules were drawn up, for the general 'good' of the community, to make this place safe and beneficial for the majority. For a while, more and more rules were added, which just caused more confusion. As a result, the 'rules' were simplified, but are always evolving.

However, this forum always will belong to the administrators/founders, as such they have the right to ban any member they please, for whatever reason they choose. Anthony has frequently used a 'house rules' analogy. "When you are in my house, you will abide by my rules", which differ from house to house. For example whether you need to take your shoes off to protect my carpet, and whether you are allowed to smoke in my house. But he also has a very fair system in place, when it comes to banning members. Banning someone isn't done lightly, but is generally for the good of the whole community.

Your posts on this thread 'could' see you banned for trolling.

What is it about this thread that has upset you so much? If you genuinely are a PTSD sufferer (and I believe you are), then don't let whatever has upset you in this this thread take over, and stop you using the site for your own good.
 
Your posts on this thread 'could' see you banned for trolling.

Accused of 'derailing', now 'trolling'...ok noted.


However, this forum always will belong to the administrators/founders, as such they have the right to ban any member they please, for whatever reason they choose.

Got it. For whatever reason they choose.


What is it about this thread that has upset you so much? If you genuinely are a PTSD sufferer (and I believe you are), then don't let whatever has upset you in this this thread take over, and stop you using the site for your own good.

Thank you for your concern. However, please don't question my diagnosis, that's is and always will be, my psychiatrists job - only. To clarify so that no one attaches stigma to my tag. I am NOT the one 'accused' of 'lying' or faking it' or the 'accuser', nor was I the one who initially derailed, nor was I the one who was 'accused' of 'labeling' someone a sociopath.


I will go quietly on my own terms, with my integrity in tact.

I'm sure there will be a post after this one, so I will just respond with the general phrase ' genuinely, right back at you' xxoo.
 
To all who may be interested,

My brain is not working well today, but if it were I would have much more to say. However, much would agree with what you have already written. So instead, I will just pose a few food for thought comments:

1. The diagnostics categories and axes are ever evolving and highly debated in whatever form they exist. They are at best based on the current available body of 'reliable knowledge' and 'concensus agreement' of 'declared experts' at the time of printing, hence the delay in releasing DSM-V. Yet before, during, and after such printing there is still much debate among professional. In fact, it is hard to find three professionals who can agree upon a diagnosis, let along four or more.

2. As you also accurately wrote, the conditional backdrop behind any properly assessed personality disorder is that the individual is at least 18 and the the pervasive traits were evident in childhood/adolescence. Well, statistically speaking, many if not most consumers are not seen/assessed by a psychiatrist or psychologist until adulthood. So in order assess whether any pervasive trait existed in childhood/adolescenc, a professional must often times rely on the testimony of others (unless clear legal documents exist), which is clearly an interpretive judgment call. And again, it is hard to get two professionals to agree.

3. Now another conditIonal backdrop for diagnosing (as you clearly indicated) is that a personality disorder can only be applied when there is NO other "condition/disorder that better accounts for the consumer's symptoms". And I do not contest this at all, personality disorders should only be used if no better medical or axis I disorder exists. Now what follows next is my opinion, but at least a worthy food for thought. Taking into account the fact that I have severely rare autoimmune disorders that attack my entire body, produce great pain, steal my energy, and alter my view of the world based on the limitations it imposed on me, I have had MANY licensed and credentialed psychiatrists label them as some somatoform disorder simply because they refuse to believe the "proof" in light of my past.

And in that same vein, I strongly believe that many consumers with PTSD get in incorrectly diagnosed with borderline or avoidant or obsessive compulsive or other personality disorders when the syptims are better explained by PTSD. This seems especially true when early childhood trauma/abuse exists. One has to ask would the, for example, black-and-white pervasive thinking of BPD or pervasive avoidance of AvPD or the compulsive need for perfection/order of OcPD exist if a child had experience such complex trauma or was not in a fight for their own survival almost since birth? Who knows what traits that child would have developed, if not exposed to such trauma.

4. In line with that, there are a boatload of unqualified professionals, who rather than take partial credit for the successes and failures in a therpeuatic alliance, choose to "blame" the consumer instead of admitting that they were not truly qualified to work with a particular diagnosis and person. How many PTSD sufferers have be first labeled 'defiant', 'resistant', 'unamenable to change', or 'unwilling to accept tx recommendations' or 'aggressve' or 'uncooperatve' and so on, when often times this is more areflection of the professional's skillset, projection, or insecurities?

To make a simply analogy in an effort to clarify (but one I recognize is not 100% accurate - too tired), in the case of one who is repeatedly exposed to early onset, prolonged, brutal, manipulative, and life-threatening child abuse, many professionals often (and in secrecy or while li) assess the sole diagnostic label of BPD, when in my view such cases are likely labeled that when it should more accurately be PTSD. As in (PTSD - Trauma ~= BPD) but with much more stigma from the medical and mental health communities here in the states.

5. And one last comment which I am sure will come out not as clear as I see it in my head (damn brain). Part of me (not that I have more than one identity or anything *smile*) wants to tentatively say that the only diagnoses we as consumers need to get correct are the ones we have been diagnosed with, one of which being PTSD - the reason we are here, sufferers and supporters alike. Please try to delay forming any opinion/reaction yet until I can get the rest out. And I would like to approach from two angles, if possible.

I believe that diagnostic criteria are always in flux, and today's understanding is not tomorrow's understanding. There is as much agreement as there is disagreement and new diagnoses and criteria and classsification are being proposed every single day. So is it so wrong for a layperson/member to use C-PTSD to describe what they feel better fits their systems when it is part of the 'proposed body of knowledge'? I myself find it helpful to me when many standard tx models work from the premise that "one can somehow how get back to their pre-trauma life after the trauma has been dealt with in therapy. But, take me for example, I have no pre-trauma life to refer to, since my life was in jeopardy since the very day I was born. In addition, many critical developmental phases were affected (language development for one) by my longstanding and intertwining abuse/neglect trauma. And that makes it more complex than was the DSM refers to as "single incident trauma". So again helpful for me to use that description.

And then there is the question of using descriptive terms, which may overlap with diagnostic one, to expound on our perceived experiences with another. For example, sociopathic is not a diagnostic code in the DSM, but ASpD is. Also narcissistic and histrionic are not diagnostic labels either unless you specifically add 'personality disorder' to them. However, they all have a cultural and a descriptive meaning to them apart from the specific psychological meaning. And I know "sadistic" and "bio bitch Barbie" have no value/place in any diagnostic tool, just like 'vermin', 'whack job', 'f*ing bastad', 'crazy ass lunatic', 'puppet master', 'monster', 'hostage taker'', 'exploiter', and so. But, for me, because of the cultural meaning of antisocial (a little socially awkward) and narcissistic (a little self-centered), my mother being diagnosed as having either (depending on the professional she deviously met with while stalking me night and day) a NPD or ASpD never fully described to me or to others less psychologically knowledgeable the breath and depth of the 'soul murder' that she was to me. But I felt more validated and others did relate better to my lived experiences when I would refer to her as a 'my sadistic narcissist mommie' or my 'sociopathic bio bitch Barbie'. I certainly do not care about my mother's various diagnostic labels, I just care about depicting how "I experienced her" and about how I wished she never had the label of "my mother".

I have many more thoughts and questions, and these were most assuredly not presented as clearly or as correctly as I would have wished. However, I have to work with my brain the way it is now (many losses). Yet I do sincerely hope that I made some on here question their own assumption as I have about how trivalized the words trauma and abuse have become, and how very difficult it is to speak to our experiences in the language of finite words when so much of our experiences take place on the nonverbal plane.

And just to reiterate, I am not presenting this to argue or debate or challenge anything, just my little spin on 'descriptive labels and depiction' from my unique perspective. Ponder or question or discard as you see fit.

I'd eat humble pie, but only just ate my first ICU meal in almost three months - so I doubt "pie" is on the menu anytime soon. :)

Warm Regards,
Alex
 
I would say your points run pretty clearly within mental health doctrine scope Alex, even with indifference between physicians, the lines usually aren't blurred to far for the majority. Also agree... there are too many backyard diagnosticians labelling with no idea what they're doing, hence some of the problems in the world.

In regards to adding an Axis II diagnosis to PTSD for complex sufferers, I believe that is only done when there is clearly the criterion for PTSD, then there are sufficient criterion outside the scope of PTSD that by themselves meet the diagnostic criterion for an Axis II personality disorder, ie. complex sufferers having PTSD + BPD and/or Dissociative diagnosis... where those symptoms are so extreme outside the scope of another, they warrant it.

It is no different to PTSD + depression. Depression is not part of a PTSD diagnosis, so it is listed as a cormorbid diagnosis. I believe Axis II disorders are still issues as cormorbid when PTSD is present, ie. if you remove PTSD you would no longer meet the criteria for the cormorbid disorders. They do not exist without the primary. Many veterans have alcohol & substance abuse disorders, as comorbid to PTSD. Heal PTSD then the secondary disorders should no longer be present.

That is my understanding explained by several psychiatrists (all stated the same thing) on diagnostic application in relation to cormorbid application for PTSD and complex trauma types.
 
Because people lie, basically.

There have been members reported based on all sorts of things via befriending someone, who actually does have PTSD, for them to eventually tell them they don't. People say they're poor and unemployed, but are wealthy and working, people say they have kids, no kids, people say they have been through x abuse, never endured and make it all up, and the list goes on and on.

There is a lot of things that come forward behind the scenes of the site. Staff joke about the full moon cycle, we find it funny, yet around that time we get all sorts of crazy new member nonsense and such. People forward emails to me they have with members in private when they find out such deception from them, etc... lots of things go on.

This is why I make no qualms in my very blunt member notice, about not thinking you are safe online, about not thinking you actually know who you are talking with at the other end of a computer here, etc etc. People lie. Fact!
And there it is in a nutshell. People lie. I would think the mere fact of a person going to all the trouble to make up a disorder and join a forum would indicate a type of mental instability in itself. Way bad Karma
 
And there it is in a nutshell. People lie. I would think the mere fact of a person going to all the trouble to make up a disorder and join a forum would indicate a type of mental instability in itself. Way bad Karma
Possibly... though this forum is not for everyone with a mental disorder, it is for those with PTSD. People lie about things for all sorts of reasons, they don't need to have a mental disorder to do so... hence my choice of wording, "possibly."

It would be just as wrong to go labelling people with a mental disorder for lying as it would calling someone a sociopath because they abuse a person.

I was watching the hit TV show "Revenge" last night in bed, and said to my wife that she could fit a sociopathic profile based on her childhood history, adulthood, isolation and so forth... even though she goes out and socialises with an emotional mask with the very people she is exacting revenge, she is otherwise anti-social in near every context which began in childhood.

But then comes her adulthood... she is doing specific behaviours of anti-socialism in order to exact revenge, not because she is natured that way. Clear and distinctive difference, therefore, she is just seeking revenge and would not actually be a sociopath, being her normal behaviour. She had a hard and difficult childhood, she now has a purpose, but her overall personality is not anti-social as portrayed... there is a guy who she would like to pursue from her childhood, yet isn't going to lose focus on exacting her revenge.

The really rich family who caused all the problems. Do they have personality disorders? No... they're just rich, untrusting, backstabbing people who don't care who they hurt to get what they want. In the show, they lie, manipulate, cause havoc, yet that is not a mental health disorder... that is just being a nasty rich spoilt prick.

There is a well recognise problem in the US today, and is documented by the growth of the DSM and mental health diagnosis, that an industry is calling every day behaviours a diagnosis and labelling people with them. No longer is mental health an extreme end of a spectrum, instead it is being introduced as a business model within society that if you fart, burp or sneeze, you could have a mental health issue.

It is wrong in every context, and society isn't helping it along by wanting to be sick to justify piss poor behaviour at times in life.
 
well, I really can't disagree with your logic. Just because you lie (even if it is a lot ) doesn't mean you necessarily have a mental instability. And this is a forum for PTSD not every mental issue. I am grateful to have found it. It made a HUGE difference in me to know I'm not crazy and other people, normal people are going through some of the same things. that I am ( I am most definitely a PTSD sufferer with all the paperwork to prove it.:) along with several other commonly occurring comobidities
 
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