I'm 38, and until very recently I had zero sexual desire or desire to date or have a relationship. I'm a bit different to you in that I actually did feel like I hated men for some time after I was sexually assaulted, after having loved them prior to that, so it was a pretty upsetting time for me. I feel lucky and so grateful to have met some truly decent and loving nice men that I know would never hurt me, so that has helped me heal quite a lot over the years.
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Other What is a sociopath? personality disorders general
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Don't trip
Silver Member
Philippa,
Absolutely agree. I consider it a blessing not to have learned to hate men. I really love my men friends, even though half of them are gay lol! But so is my son.
I have the best time with my gay male friends though. They loved me enough to teach me that not all men are total assholes or psychopaths. :)
You're young. :) There is hope for you. Lots of it.
Absolutely agree. I consider it a blessing not to have learned to hate men. I really love my men friends, even though half of them are gay lol! But so is my son.
I have the best time with my gay male friends though. They loved me enough to teach me that not all men are total assholes or psychopaths. :)
You're young. :) There is hope for you. Lots of it.
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anthony
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This thread is not about the DSM, however; I would also hate to see the exact problem that IS occurring, further worsen, being "criterion creep". It is a major issue when people are left to their own devices to 'interpret' for themselves, especially when seated in a position of power as a treating physician of any type.
This thread was about people labelling their abuser / anyone who does wrong by them, a sociopath. People have bad days, weeks, months and even years, none of which makes them a sociopath for classification purposes. An arsehole, absolutely. Sociopath. No!
That is what this threads intent has always been... to express factors that many simply don't know exist, that really must be present to fit a person adequately into such a severe diagnostic area. Personality disorders are not common, they aren't just there, and people DON'T develop them in adulthood. The DSM has nothing to do with the fact that personality is produced through child / adolescent years. People who are just dicks, who do stupid shit and have bad days, weeks, months or years, taking it out on anyone and everyone around them, a sociopath they are not.
That is what this thread was about... and I hope it's not misinterpreted for any other agenda or purpose.
Because someone trips and breaks their leg, we don't diagnose them with PTSD if the injury was not life threatening. Why? Because it wasn't life threatening, and it is 'normal' to expect to break a bone during life. It is not considered 'normal' to break a bone that near kills you. Apply this to people... people have bad times, bad attitudes and bad personalities at times through their lives, even their entire life. Still, does not make a sociopath. Just an arsehole. There is a big difference.
We should not confuse behaviour with personality. They are vastly different things.
This thread was about people labelling their abuser / anyone who does wrong by them, a sociopath. People have bad days, weeks, months and even years, none of which makes them a sociopath for classification purposes. An arsehole, absolutely. Sociopath. No!
That is what this threads intent has always been... to express factors that many simply don't know exist, that really must be present to fit a person adequately into such a severe diagnostic area. Personality disorders are not common, they aren't just there, and people DON'T develop them in adulthood. The DSM has nothing to do with the fact that personality is produced through child / adolescent years. People who are just dicks, who do stupid shit and have bad days, weeks, months or years, taking it out on anyone and everyone around them, a sociopath they are not.
That is what this thread was about... and I hope it's not misinterpreted for any other agenda or purpose.
Because someone trips and breaks their leg, we don't diagnose them with PTSD if the injury was not life threatening. Why? Because it wasn't life threatening, and it is 'normal' to expect to break a bone during life. It is not considered 'normal' to break a bone that near kills you. Apply this to people... people have bad times, bad attitudes and bad personalities at times through their lives, even their entire life. Still, does not make a sociopath. Just an arsehole. There is a big difference.
We should not confuse behaviour with personality. They are vastly different things.
Don't trip
Silver Member
Anthony,
I agree with you to an extent, and then I disagree with you. There ARE a lot of them. I work with the fallout daily of survivors as well as being a survivor myself. You are right in that there are assholes in the world, toxic types, but these extremes in behavior are far more common than you might realize. For every 25 people seated at a bar, one of them will be of the disordered variety. There is a fantastic book that you might find interesting called, "Women Who Love Psychopaths", by Sandra Brown M.A. that outlines the disorders quite well and has been in this field for over 25 years. She is also a good friend. Then we have Dr. Robert Hare, one of the pioneers of psychopathy. His book, "Without Conscience" is another fantastic read if you wish to educate yourself about them. There is also Martha Stout Ph.D and "The Sociopath Next Door".
These disorders are about a CONSISTENT PATTERN OF BEHAVIOR OVER TIME. IT isn't someone having a bad day, or even a bad season, it is apart of their CHARACTER that defines their disorder. A consistent lack of empathy, contempt, exploitation.
Psychopathy is familiar, but not familiar enough. This is why i educate about them. One of the dangers for survivors, brings to light the point that you just mentioned: There is a hyper vigilance through the recovery process where a survivor assumes, through hysterical support systems (NOT MINE) that there is a "spath around every bush". There are actually forums out there that exploit survivors and encourage ruminating and cognitive dissonance, FURTHER exacerbating PTSD.
There is a balance that is struck with regards to the disorders and unless you've actually experienced one, it would be difficult to define it, as it is a very unique and devastating experience, far outside the realm of 'the average asshole'.
Most abusers DO NOT change. EVen if they are not disordered, but if they are, there will be NO change at all. It's important for me and for many other supporters and educators who do this work to teach about the behaviors of the disorders so that survivors are better able to define them should they be targeted again, as well as helping them to understand their experiences.
PTSD is a very unfortunate outcome of a survivors experience. I have this forum attached to my blog as I know survivors would greatly benefit in understanding the PTSD element of their abuse.
I agree with you to an extent, and then I disagree with you. There ARE a lot of them. I work with the fallout daily of survivors as well as being a survivor myself. You are right in that there are assholes in the world, toxic types, but these extremes in behavior are far more common than you might realize. For every 25 people seated at a bar, one of them will be of the disordered variety. There is a fantastic book that you might find interesting called, "Women Who Love Psychopaths", by Sandra Brown M.A. that outlines the disorders quite well and has been in this field for over 25 years. She is also a good friend. Then we have Dr. Robert Hare, one of the pioneers of psychopathy. His book, "Without Conscience" is another fantastic read if you wish to educate yourself about them. There is also Martha Stout Ph.D and "The Sociopath Next Door".
These disorders are about a CONSISTENT PATTERN OF BEHAVIOR OVER TIME. IT isn't someone having a bad day, or even a bad season, it is apart of their CHARACTER that defines their disorder. A consistent lack of empathy, contempt, exploitation.
Psychopathy is familiar, but not familiar enough. This is why i educate about them. One of the dangers for survivors, brings to light the point that you just mentioned: There is a hyper vigilance through the recovery process where a survivor assumes, through hysterical support systems (NOT MINE) that there is a "spath around every bush". There are actually forums out there that exploit survivors and encourage ruminating and cognitive dissonance, FURTHER exacerbating PTSD.
There is a balance that is struck with regards to the disorders and unless you've actually experienced one, it would be difficult to define it, as it is a very unique and devastating experience, far outside the realm of 'the average asshole'.
Most abusers DO NOT change. EVen if they are not disordered, but if they are, there will be NO change at all. It's important for me and for many other supporters and educators who do this work to teach about the behaviors of the disorders so that survivors are better able to define them should they be targeted again, as well as helping them to understand their experiences.
PTSD is a very unfortunate outcome of a survivors experience. I have this forum attached to my blog as I know survivors would greatly benefit in understanding the PTSD element of their abuse.
I totally agree with Anthony, and I totally agree with Trip, with no inherent contradiction.
Erin Pizzey uses the term 'Emotional Terrorist' to describe the behaviour of certain people, especially women. The term exists nowhere else, but I understood my sister's behaviour (my sister was my primary care giver) for the first time after having read Pizzey's article.
I don't have time to elaborate on this now, and just want to add that for victims it is often liberating to be able to pin the behaviour of the abuser on the abuser, and not look for it in themselves or the interaction, by using a term, such as sociopath. So I think calling someone a sociopath can clarify things, while acknowledging that the person is not, and probably never will be, diagnosed as such (mainly because such a person will never submit to being diagnosed).
But having said that, I'm also aware of potential abuse,
Erin Pizzey uses the term 'Emotional Terrorist' to describe the behaviour of certain people, especially women. The term exists nowhere else, but I understood my sister's behaviour (my sister was my primary care giver) for the first time after having read Pizzey's article.
I don't have time to elaborate on this now, and just want to add that for victims it is often liberating to be able to pin the behaviour of the abuser on the abuser, and not look for it in themselves or the interaction, by using a term, such as sociopath. So I think calling someone a sociopath can clarify things, while acknowledging that the person is not, and probably never will be, diagnosed as such (mainly because such a person will never submit to being diagnosed).
But having said that, I'm also aware of potential abuse,
I'm REALLY, really confused. I've always pretty much agreed that it lets an awful lot of people off the proverbial hook if we're able to dismiss behaviours with a diagnosis. In point of fact, this has kind of bug the bejeesis out of me in regards to the ex. Gosh, folks would say, LOOK at what he did, rampaging around, beating you up, stalking you, drinking that bottle of Jack then being amazed this was all frowned upon by society in general. No he wasn't, he just had an ego the size of New Jersey, this was one of those jerks but not mentally ill. That's only my opinion as a non-professional. I think it's valid because I knew the guy REALLY well, I knew how his head worked, knew exactly what kind of adult tantrum he was throwing when he threw one. Just because he behaved SO, so outrageously, people would throw up their hands and say ' Oh, well, clearly he's crazy '. Used to make ME crazy, because he just wasn't, he was an *swipe.
BUT. I have 2 people in my life ( sort of, they both give me the major willies so they're not exactly 'in' ) who HAVE to have something wrong with them, even if I just plain can't navigate through these terms and pages or have them properly diagnosed. One of them has been, in point of fact, an MMPI came back with 'Borderline Sociopath'. We have NO idea whether that would be BPD plus Sociopath OR almostttt Sociopath. She won't tell us and these days denies this test ever occured. Are MMPI's diagnostic tools? It's something else I do not know as a lay-person, meaning someone who has not-a lot of knowledge on these subjects. I WILL say that it is just no surprise whatsoever to hear of her MMPI results. This person didn't bat an eye when she told both her elderly parents that well, the physical ailments were mounting up, it's probably time they just went off somewhere and died. She thought it was the practicle thing to do, no lie, since they were using up their money staying alive.She's not just a jerk, she's incredibly frightening, truly. That would be one of her more warm and fuzzy moments, the others being even balder in heartless intent. My point being that even without my prior knowledge of her MMPI, I'd refer to her at the very least as a sociopath. It's a pattern, more or less lifelong, which she allows others to view clearly only when she knows she can discredit them or already has. I'm telling you, she'd give Manson the creeps, also does that skin-crawly smiling thing while she's blowing you up. Shudder.
The other one yes, I DID start to get a grip on because of lists I found on the internet. There's just plain something wrong with her, too. No, I do not for a moment believe I can diagnose this just person because she fits every, single 'criteria' ( using that loosely, yes, it is the internet ) on Narcissitic Personality Disorder. Who knows, maybe she also is just a jerk and would not 'have' it, if anyone could ever wrangle her into a doctor's office. She wouldn't go if you paid her, disbelieving there's anything wrong with her ever, ever on the planet. I'm not talking about some over-indulged, spoiled kid who is a pain in the neck, I'm talking about a human wrecking ball who has no emotions whatsoever when it comes to other people. We're all bugs, veiwed through her lense and she'll manufacture whatever evidence is required to squish each of us who get in her way. Lifelong patterns again, not a grumpy year or two.
I'm sorry to be so long with this. I think my point is that these people are out there. I got both frustrated and a headache reading this thread. Yes, absolutely folks have to be awfully careful throwing these terms around without a solid understanding of what on earth they're talking about. But. It leaves we regular folks nowhere to go and a little scared to think gosh, we personally have to plow through a plethora of diagnostic pages we can't begin to understand properly before we can accept the fact that George who lives next door and collects knives and makes the hair on the back of our necks stand up might have a serious problem. There just has to be some middle ground although I have no idea what that would be. I just don't think we should be intimidated to even speculate you know? Yes, I understand an awful lot of folks go wayyy too far, attaching labels like sticky notes. However. When my sister tells my mother ( like she's placing an order with LL Bean, that much emotion ) she doesn't think she should get a pace-maker because it might make her live longer, there'd be a REASON the hair stands up on the back of my neck. It better. There's something WRONGGG with that person more than a bad day, and I'd like to be able to freely conjecture ' Er, let's see, what on earth kind of list would THIS be on? '.
BUT. I have 2 people in my life ( sort of, they both give me the major willies so they're not exactly 'in' ) who HAVE to have something wrong with them, even if I just plain can't navigate through these terms and pages or have them properly diagnosed. One of them has been, in point of fact, an MMPI came back with 'Borderline Sociopath'. We have NO idea whether that would be BPD plus Sociopath OR almostttt Sociopath. She won't tell us and these days denies this test ever occured. Are MMPI's diagnostic tools? It's something else I do not know as a lay-person, meaning someone who has not-a lot of knowledge on these subjects. I WILL say that it is just no surprise whatsoever to hear of her MMPI results. This person didn't bat an eye when she told both her elderly parents that well, the physical ailments were mounting up, it's probably time they just went off somewhere and died. She thought it was the practicle thing to do, no lie, since they were using up their money staying alive.She's not just a jerk, she's incredibly frightening, truly. That would be one of her more warm and fuzzy moments, the others being even balder in heartless intent. My point being that even without my prior knowledge of her MMPI, I'd refer to her at the very least as a sociopath. It's a pattern, more or less lifelong, which she allows others to view clearly only when she knows she can discredit them or already has. I'm telling you, she'd give Manson the creeps, also does that skin-crawly smiling thing while she's blowing you up. Shudder.
The other one yes, I DID start to get a grip on because of lists I found on the internet. There's just plain something wrong with her, too. No, I do not for a moment believe I can diagnose this just person because she fits every, single 'criteria' ( using that loosely, yes, it is the internet ) on Narcissitic Personality Disorder. Who knows, maybe she also is just a jerk and would not 'have' it, if anyone could ever wrangle her into a doctor's office. She wouldn't go if you paid her, disbelieving there's anything wrong with her ever, ever on the planet. I'm not talking about some over-indulged, spoiled kid who is a pain in the neck, I'm talking about a human wrecking ball who has no emotions whatsoever when it comes to other people. We're all bugs, veiwed through her lense and she'll manufacture whatever evidence is required to squish each of us who get in her way. Lifelong patterns again, not a grumpy year or two.
I'm sorry to be so long with this. I think my point is that these people are out there. I got both frustrated and a headache reading this thread. Yes, absolutely folks have to be awfully careful throwing these terms around without a solid understanding of what on earth they're talking about. But. It leaves we regular folks nowhere to go and a little scared to think gosh, we personally have to plow through a plethora of diagnostic pages we can't begin to understand properly before we can accept the fact that George who lives next door and collects knives and makes the hair on the back of our necks stand up might have a serious problem. There just has to be some middle ground although I have no idea what that would be. I just don't think we should be intimidated to even speculate you know? Yes, I understand an awful lot of folks go wayyy too far, attaching labels like sticky notes. However. When my sister tells my mother ( like she's placing an order with LL Bean, that much emotion ) she doesn't think she should get a pace-maker because it might make her live longer, there'd be a REASON the hair stands up on the back of my neck. It better. There's something WRONGGG with that person more than a bad day, and I'd like to be able to freely conjecture ' Er, let's see, what on earth kind of list would THIS be on? '.
Don't trip
Silver Member
Anni,
I"m so sorry you have a headache!!
I can't disagree with you EITHER. LOL!
They don't have to check off on everything on the list to be considered disorders. The BASIC rule with regards to these people that ALL of the display is LACK. OF. EMPATHY. and CONTEMPT. What you described above as the creepers they are, are the dangerous ones. This is why you REACT to them...they give you the creeps. If you're healthy enough, you can SEE it. For example, my last ex psychopath was as CALM as a cucumber! NEVER reacted to anything. He CREEPED out my friends, and my kids (who hated this man), because of his low reactive appearance. He appeared as FAKE. VERY difficult to explain, but the normal reaction to this, this feeling of FEAR or being creeped out, was non existent to me. I was SO into my 'fantasy' of him, and what he represented to me, I mistook calm and cool, as emotional and spiritual maturity. He was one of the MOST dangerous individuals I've ever met, the most abusive, and he never laid a finger on me, Anni! These psychopaths are the most frightening because they've learned how to mimic human behavior, and they learn to assess potential victims, almost lazer like in their luring of them into the psychopath's web. They are major boundary violators, master manipulators. They LIE with ease. They can rewrite history at the drop of a hat. For example, you said something to him yesterday and it led to an 'argument', two hours later, you wish to bring the issue to a close so that things are emotionally balanced again between the two of you...and he pretends that the whole thing NEVER HAPPENED.
When this happens to you, it is CRAZY Making and it happens on a regular basis, sometimes I was so taken back when my ex did this i really DID believe I was nuts. It's also not true that these people are *just* mass murderers. They are corporate CEO's, politicians, the guy next door. My last ex had the same job (which he was fired and then through a hearing rehired because of his relationship with ME, I was a client) for 25 years, lived in the same neighborhood in a beautiful home (very creepy, it was beautiful on the outside but the inside reflected his disorder), for 17 years. He's a worship leader in his CHURCH. A licensed Pastor. There are people who know. He didn't just drop out of the sky as a psychopath. He avoids them all because he's built a new persona for the new victim he married last year. If he didn't look the same, in the face, I wouldn't recognize the man I thought I knew at all, because they have no inner core, and they take on the personalities of others they are with, and borrow some along the way for the purposes of manipulation. It IS very scary.
The first one, was violent, alcoholic, drug addicted. Beat the shit out of me. Molested my son. IS he truly a psychopath or is he just an *arsehole* as Anthony put so well....
No, he's a psychopath. This could become confusing. My ex husband is on the anti social scale. He is of the violent variety. His narcissism is low, his psychopathy is high. He has been in trouble with the law since he was very young. He started drinking from his parents alcohol cabinet at NINE years of age. No kidding! He has stolen money from places he worked, he has been to jail for domestic violence numerous times (ruined one christmas because of it), and the last time this happened, he had to go through treatment and anger management (for alcohol and an abuser program). He stayed sober for five years, clean too. The defining factor in whether or not he was a psychopath was one who wanted to diagnose but was AFRAID too (this happens a lot to survivors, as these people are extremely manipulative, it's NEVER advised to attend therapy WITH them), so he never got a dx, but during those five years, NOTHING changed, except that he was sober.
These people have what Sandra Brown, M.A. refers to as, The Three Inabilities: The inability for insight, the inability to sustain personal growth and the inability to SUSTAIN POSITIVE CHANGE. They can be extremely intelligent (BOTH my ex's had very high IQ's), but can be incredibly emotionally inept. It's like having a 'relationship' with a very bright six year old.
To a survivor who has suffered the effects of one of those creepy people you have run across, are devastating in every way. Labels matter to her when it comes to descriptive terms and subsequent content that outlines the behaviors for her. Too many times, when I've described it as she speaks about it, lightbulbs start going off in her head. I have seen survivors literally break down with RELIEF at knowing what they've been involved with...and there is no way I would tell her that just because he'll never be diagnosed, doesn't mean that's not exactly who he is.
As long as these people fly under the radar, they can do substantial damage. They cause enormous amounts of pain and society enormous amounts of money. Once you know who they are (and you seem to give a GREAT example of that), they are not hard to see. Even those that are the most charming (and MANY of them are), do things that scream lack of empathy. They advocate for the destruction of others, they know they are hurting people but they don't CARE.
I think it's hard to accept because those of us with empathy and compassion would have a hard time imagining one who doesn't. At all. It takes a long time to accept.
To address your last paragraph, Anni, you are right. I wrote an article about this on my blog too and I have to remind survivors that not EVERYONE is a spath. These behaviors are a consistent pattern over time. Years and years and they have relationship histories that reveal this. They leave an enormous amount of damage behind. It's most unfortunate because new victims are so caught up in the fantasy that the psychopath weaves for them, they won't talk with ex's about his behavior, even when they've been told about it, or a friend or family member tips them off that something is VERY WRONG with this person. The bonding they create with the victim is so strong because of the depth of deception and mirroring the psychopath does, she is not going to believe anyone. This is very sad. Oops, getting off track.
Anyway, I wrote a post about this very issue. Survivors go through a period in their recovery where they become very hyper vigilant and harm avoidant. They are VERY paranoid. The level of betrayal they've experienced is so deep, that it's very difficult for them to trust again, but I put the brakes on them when they begin to point fingers and accuse others of being 'spaths'. I have had COUNTLESS survivors cut me off IMMEDIATELY due to this behavior. It is VERY frustrating because you cannot encourage their healing in moving forward when ANYTHING ANYONE says to them that is in DISAGREEMENT, means they boot you out of their lives and then run around telling people that you're a spath.
I have seen survivors never leave this state and being around them is like walking on eggshells. Trust cannot be built with survivors in this state. FURTHER, what really angers me beyond belief is that survivor support is relatively new. There are not a lot of therapists that deal with the disorders or the fallout. The therapists that do are like finding gold in shit. Many survivors cannot afford a therapist either, and mental health in this country is inadequately under funded and uncared for. So guess where that leaves the survivorss? WITH THE SUPPORTERS. Oftentimes we are the ONLY support in real time they have. There are books, videos, etc, but most survivors do not have the means or cannot find an adequate therapist. This field is FULL of disordered exploiters. They KNOW that there are victims aplenty. Psychopathy and narcissism run on a spectrum. It doesn't matter if they only have a 'little bit' of disorder, it's still enough to destroy a person's life. There is disorder, ironically, all over the support community. THESE are the people I wish I could reach, but because of their varying degrees of narcissism, they cut me off (which is what disorders do!) when I call them out on their very exploitative behavior and clear lack of empathy. They take the disorders and create HYSTERIA for survivors, keeping them in the SPINS about not only their ex's but the world in general. UGH! I have reported them, called them out personally and yesterday a fellow survivor had to contact his attorney because his copy write work was being stolen by who? YEP you guessed it, a disordered female supporter, who has grown her 'business' exploiting survivors and makes 150,000 a year off their pain. We are in process of doing something about it right now, but I am a HUGE advocate in encouraging survivors NOT to listen to that garbage. Once they know what the disorders are, and what their partners were, their job is then to heal themselves. As little time as possible should be spent ruminating about him or his disorder. The abusers are responsible for their behavior and their abuse, a survivor IS NOT at fault at all for what he has done, however, I find myself in hot water with some survivors who prefer the disordered supporters because they WANT to continue to spin about the abuser and blame and blame him, without looking at themselves, without doing the deep work of purging some pretty ugly stuff. I would say about 80% of the survivors I have worked with, have a family background of pathology or abuse to some degree.
Ironically, I can validate you about just tossing the disordered label out there, because it has been applied to me by survivors who suggest that they would do better moving forward, from him to themselves. It does get tiring after awhile, when the refuse to budge from blaming him and his disorder, rather than figuring out why they were victimized in the first place. I don't coddle survivors and am very straightforward. I know that they are highly emotionally dependent and most of them are not aware of it, which makes them vulnerable to exploitative supporters. I do not encourage dependence, I encourage their independence. In doing this work, MAYBE 25% of survivors will make it through the process. That's a sad number, but it is indicative of the destruction the disordered are capable of. Some survivors never recover.
Thanks for your post. It was very thought provoking. :)
I"m so sorry you have a headache!!
I can't disagree with you EITHER. LOL!
They don't have to check off on everything on the list to be considered disorders. The BASIC rule with regards to these people that ALL of the display is LACK. OF. EMPATHY. and CONTEMPT. What you described above as the creepers they are, are the dangerous ones. This is why you REACT to them...they give you the creeps. If you're healthy enough, you can SEE it. For example, my last ex psychopath was as CALM as a cucumber! NEVER reacted to anything. He CREEPED out my friends, and my kids (who hated this man), because of his low reactive appearance. He appeared as FAKE. VERY difficult to explain, but the normal reaction to this, this feeling of FEAR or being creeped out, was non existent to me. I was SO into my 'fantasy' of him, and what he represented to me, I mistook calm and cool, as emotional and spiritual maturity. He was one of the MOST dangerous individuals I've ever met, the most abusive, and he never laid a finger on me, Anni! These psychopaths are the most frightening because they've learned how to mimic human behavior, and they learn to assess potential victims, almost lazer like in their luring of them into the psychopath's web. They are major boundary violators, master manipulators. They LIE with ease. They can rewrite history at the drop of a hat. For example, you said something to him yesterday and it led to an 'argument', two hours later, you wish to bring the issue to a close so that things are emotionally balanced again between the two of you...and he pretends that the whole thing NEVER HAPPENED.
When this happens to you, it is CRAZY Making and it happens on a regular basis, sometimes I was so taken back when my ex did this i really DID believe I was nuts. It's also not true that these people are *just* mass murderers. They are corporate CEO's, politicians, the guy next door. My last ex had the same job (which he was fired and then through a hearing rehired because of his relationship with ME, I was a client) for 25 years, lived in the same neighborhood in a beautiful home (very creepy, it was beautiful on the outside but the inside reflected his disorder), for 17 years. He's a worship leader in his CHURCH. A licensed Pastor. There are people who know. He didn't just drop out of the sky as a psychopath. He avoids them all because he's built a new persona for the new victim he married last year. If he didn't look the same, in the face, I wouldn't recognize the man I thought I knew at all, because they have no inner core, and they take on the personalities of others they are with, and borrow some along the way for the purposes of manipulation. It IS very scary.
The first one, was violent, alcoholic, drug addicted. Beat the shit out of me. Molested my son. IS he truly a psychopath or is he just an *arsehole* as Anthony put so well....
No, he's a psychopath. This could become confusing. My ex husband is on the anti social scale. He is of the violent variety. His narcissism is low, his psychopathy is high. He has been in trouble with the law since he was very young. He started drinking from his parents alcohol cabinet at NINE years of age. No kidding! He has stolen money from places he worked, he has been to jail for domestic violence numerous times (ruined one christmas because of it), and the last time this happened, he had to go through treatment and anger management (for alcohol and an abuser program). He stayed sober for five years, clean too. The defining factor in whether or not he was a psychopath was one who wanted to diagnose but was AFRAID too (this happens a lot to survivors, as these people are extremely manipulative, it's NEVER advised to attend therapy WITH them), so he never got a dx, but during those five years, NOTHING changed, except that he was sober.
These people have what Sandra Brown, M.A. refers to as, The Three Inabilities: The inability for insight, the inability to sustain personal growth and the inability to SUSTAIN POSITIVE CHANGE. They can be extremely intelligent (BOTH my ex's had very high IQ's), but can be incredibly emotionally inept. It's like having a 'relationship' with a very bright six year old.
To a survivor who has suffered the effects of one of those creepy people you have run across, are devastating in every way. Labels matter to her when it comes to descriptive terms and subsequent content that outlines the behaviors for her. Too many times, when I've described it as she speaks about it, lightbulbs start going off in her head. I have seen survivors literally break down with RELIEF at knowing what they've been involved with...and there is no way I would tell her that just because he'll never be diagnosed, doesn't mean that's not exactly who he is.
As long as these people fly under the radar, they can do substantial damage. They cause enormous amounts of pain and society enormous amounts of money. Once you know who they are (and you seem to give a GREAT example of that), they are not hard to see. Even those that are the most charming (and MANY of them are), do things that scream lack of empathy. They advocate for the destruction of others, they know they are hurting people but they don't CARE.
I think it's hard to accept because those of us with empathy and compassion would have a hard time imagining one who doesn't. At all. It takes a long time to accept.
To address your last paragraph, Anni, you are right. I wrote an article about this on my blog too and I have to remind survivors that not EVERYONE is a spath. These behaviors are a consistent pattern over time. Years and years and they have relationship histories that reveal this. They leave an enormous amount of damage behind. It's most unfortunate because new victims are so caught up in the fantasy that the psychopath weaves for them, they won't talk with ex's about his behavior, even when they've been told about it, or a friend or family member tips them off that something is VERY WRONG with this person. The bonding they create with the victim is so strong because of the depth of deception and mirroring the psychopath does, she is not going to believe anyone. This is very sad. Oops, getting off track.
Anyway, I wrote a post about this very issue. Survivors go through a period in their recovery where they become very hyper vigilant and harm avoidant. They are VERY paranoid. The level of betrayal they've experienced is so deep, that it's very difficult for them to trust again, but I put the brakes on them when they begin to point fingers and accuse others of being 'spaths'. I have had COUNTLESS survivors cut me off IMMEDIATELY due to this behavior. It is VERY frustrating because you cannot encourage their healing in moving forward when ANYTHING ANYONE says to them that is in DISAGREEMENT, means they boot you out of their lives and then run around telling people that you're a spath.
I have seen survivors never leave this state and being around them is like walking on eggshells. Trust cannot be built with survivors in this state. FURTHER, what really angers me beyond belief is that survivor support is relatively new. There are not a lot of therapists that deal with the disorders or the fallout. The therapists that do are like finding gold in shit. Many survivors cannot afford a therapist either, and mental health in this country is inadequately under funded and uncared for. So guess where that leaves the survivorss? WITH THE SUPPORTERS. Oftentimes we are the ONLY support in real time they have. There are books, videos, etc, but most survivors do not have the means or cannot find an adequate therapist. This field is FULL of disordered exploiters. They KNOW that there are victims aplenty. Psychopathy and narcissism run on a spectrum. It doesn't matter if they only have a 'little bit' of disorder, it's still enough to destroy a person's life. There is disorder, ironically, all over the support community. THESE are the people I wish I could reach, but because of their varying degrees of narcissism, they cut me off (which is what disorders do!) when I call them out on their very exploitative behavior and clear lack of empathy. They take the disorders and create HYSTERIA for survivors, keeping them in the SPINS about not only their ex's but the world in general. UGH! I have reported them, called them out personally and yesterday a fellow survivor had to contact his attorney because his copy write work was being stolen by who? YEP you guessed it, a disordered female supporter, who has grown her 'business' exploiting survivors and makes 150,000 a year off their pain. We are in process of doing something about it right now, but I am a HUGE advocate in encouraging survivors NOT to listen to that garbage. Once they know what the disorders are, and what their partners were, their job is then to heal themselves. As little time as possible should be spent ruminating about him or his disorder. The abusers are responsible for their behavior and their abuse, a survivor IS NOT at fault at all for what he has done, however, I find myself in hot water with some survivors who prefer the disordered supporters because they WANT to continue to spin about the abuser and blame and blame him, without looking at themselves, without doing the deep work of purging some pretty ugly stuff. I would say about 80% of the survivors I have worked with, have a family background of pathology or abuse to some degree.
Ironically, I can validate you about just tossing the disordered label out there, because it has been applied to me by survivors who suggest that they would do better moving forward, from him to themselves. It does get tiring after awhile, when the refuse to budge from blaming him and his disorder, rather than figuring out why they were victimized in the first place. I don't coddle survivors and am very straightforward. I know that they are highly emotionally dependent and most of them are not aware of it, which makes them vulnerable to exploitative supporters. I do not encourage dependence, I encourage their independence. In doing this work, MAYBE 25% of survivors will make it through the process. That's a sad number, but it is indicative of the destruction the disordered are capable of. Some survivors never recover.
Thanks for your post. It was very thought provoking. :)
Queen Boudica
VIP Member
If I could like your post a million times I would. Thank you for posting this.
I won't go into details here but what you described about sociopaths I understand and I know to be true because I am a survivor. He was no arsehole. He is I believe with all my heart a sociopath. I am so ashamed I was tangled with him for so long and I fell for his lies; even disbelieving his sister whose life he totally destroyed, that shame is still inside me that I supported him and fell for the lies. He feels no guilt for any of the devastation he has left. He twisted everything to make it look like he was the poor victim.
I came from a very abusive family and I was totally emotionally dependent on him. No more: I needed the truth to pull away from his hold on me and I have done that. And I am doing that work now to purge myself from all that ugly stuff. I know that is so important. That is what is important now. Not blaming but working on my recovery.
Whatever label he is given it will not affect me now because I am moving on. But having that label when I first started to pull myself away from his grasps was vitally important, otherwise I think I would still be there.
That is my truth; maybe I am wrong, but it has helped me move on and that is what is important.
My worry is for my children but I hope they will grow up emotionally strong so they cannot be manipulated and exploited like I was.
I won't go into details here but what you described about sociopaths I understand and I know to be true because I am a survivor. He was no arsehole. He is I believe with all my heart a sociopath. I am so ashamed I was tangled with him for so long and I fell for his lies; even disbelieving his sister whose life he totally destroyed, that shame is still inside me that I supported him and fell for the lies. He feels no guilt for any of the devastation he has left. He twisted everything to make it look like he was the poor victim.
I came from a very abusive family and I was totally emotionally dependent on him. No more: I needed the truth to pull away from his hold on me and I have done that. And I am doing that work now to purge myself from all that ugly stuff. I know that is so important. That is what is important now. Not blaming but working on my recovery.
Whatever label he is given it will not affect me now because I am moving on. But having that label when I first started to pull myself away from his grasps was vitally important, otherwise I think I would still be there.
That is my truth; maybe I am wrong, but it has helped me move on and that is what is important.
My worry is for my children but I hope they will grow up emotionally strong so they cannot be manipulated and exploited like I was.
Don't trip
Silver Member
Lizio.
You are NOT wrong. Your post is one of hundreds I've seen the past two years. What you described is profound and is exactly what the disorders do. It is definitely different than just your regular everyday asshole.
The path you've chosen for recovery is one I wish more survivors would take. You're very brave for doing it. The hardest part of recovery is not learning about the disorders and obsessing on them and why they can't love, the hardest part of recovery is working on ourselves and purging our demons. What allowed this into our lives in the first place.
I wish you tons of love and blessings in your recovery!
You are NOT wrong. Your post is one of hundreds I've seen the past two years. What you described is profound and is exactly what the disorders do. It is definitely different than just your regular everyday asshole.
The path you've chosen for recovery is one I wish more survivors would take. You're very brave for doing it. The hardest part of recovery is not learning about the disorders and obsessing on them and why they can't love, the hardest part of recovery is working on ourselves and purging our demons. What allowed this into our lives in the first place.
I wish you tons of love and blessings in your recovery!
zaniara
Diamond Member
When I read a course about violence and aggressive behavior in psychology at the university we saw some programs and read some articles that stated that there are a lot of discussion about the personality disorders such as sociopathic , borderline and narcissistic personality disorder. And that some experts think that there are no clear cut between them. Our teacher told us that there are a spectrum; not as 'fixed' diagnoses as they have believed it to be before. And that they believe a person can be somewhere in that spectrum.
Nevertheless I agree one shouldn't use those terms about people without the expertise to do so. But I hope it's okay to talk about an abuser being a 'monster'(subjective, but that's my feeling and point of view on some people; and some of the abusers I've met and been hurt by)? And that it's okay to say that one thinks his/her abuser might be for an example narcissistic in his/her behaviors(not the same as saying that the person have narcissistic personality disorder)? I know the first abuser I knew show clear signs of being somewhere on that spectrum(some sociopathic as well as narcissistic personality traits and behaviors as well; shown very early on in his life too; actually during childhood) and I have the need to talk about those stuff sometimes, just to understand better what it was I coped growing up with- but I have no interest what so ever in pointing him out to everyone as "being a sociopath".
Nevertheless I agree one shouldn't use those terms about people without the expertise to do so. But I hope it's okay to talk about an abuser being a 'monster'(subjective, but that's my feeling and point of view on some people; and some of the abusers I've met and been hurt by)? And that it's okay to say that one thinks his/her abuser might be for an example narcissistic in his/her behaviors(not the same as saying that the person have narcissistic personality disorder)? I know the first abuser I knew show clear signs of being somewhere on that spectrum(some sociopathic as well as narcissistic personality traits and behaviors as well; shown very early on in his life too; actually during childhood) and I have the need to talk about those stuff sometimes, just to understand better what it was I coped growing up with- but I have no interest what so ever in pointing him out to everyone as "being a sociopath".
Gee. That's almost all I have. Thank you, also. I realize I have what anyone might term an over-developed sense of humor but some of that was hysterical, it was SOOO close to home, Good Grief. She'll probably read this ( hee- she does this VERY, very wierd thing where she'll break into my email, or follow me here and read my very private stuff, then has the b*lls to actually become enraged over what she reads. Now really, how fall-down funny is that? ) and the top of her head will pop off but there's an awful awful lot in your post which just plain IS my sister and her husband. I kind of refuse to say 'my brother in law' since nope, he's not MY anything, thank you, gives me the d*m willies.
That smooth, almost emotionless thing you described, with zero introspection and no real reaction? That'd be him. OH yes, we HEAR alll about how he 'goes off' on various people because he's so full of testosterone, and he's MEAN to people while smiling. Also, the single instance in 15 years I've personally had knowledge of him exploding is at ( wait for it ) a quite literally dying, very elderly, extremelyyyy sick man, while his equally ill wife was restrained in the next room. By my sister, the other 'path of whatever stripe she is. I suspect very much the explosion itself was carefully calculated for a single purpose anywa, which did not occur, thank God. It had also been engineered to happen a. while my husband and I were 800 miles away, on an ISLAND, for God's sake, in the woods and b. while my mother had a diagnosis the docs told us which could cause he to fall over dead if a door slammed. Sometimes things are exactly as bad as they sound as this was.
Your post just underlined for me what really has been my suspision, plus my T IS one of the rare ones treating survivors and keeping all kinds of safeguards on them, too. You never think you're going to write the words ' If anything happens to me, please know THIS... '. Well, he's our repository who in turn has one. And yes, according to my sister(s), I'm indeed crazy, with so many heartless actions directed at my mother that if they were true I'd be in jail. These people are incredibly, incredibly good at torquing outrageous into 'truth' and done in such a way that folks just plain believe them. I've never seen anything like it. ( Sorry so long. In the same way that your post was helful because it was recognizable, what if my experiences at the moment are the same for someone? ) For instance. My husband and I are clearly ( and believe me, quietly ) getting my mother's 5 bedroom house packed up ( with ZEROOO help beyond our kids, seriously, nothing ), which includes an awful lot of my sister's cr*p, have built her an apartment with OUR money, have done allll her doc appointments, trips, etc., relieved her ( deservedly so ) of 8-% of her every day bills and generally just are there for her every, single day.Heck, her little place is 20 feet from ours, it's nice. Now, if you brought a film crew to this town, depsite what you SEE, the concrete evidence, the public opinion would be that my sister is running herself into the hospital, she's working SO hard maintaining my mother, that I'm making my elderly mother keep house for us and we have her hostage here while cleaning out her bank account, and the reason not ONE of the 6 other grandchildren and her other greatgrandchild have made the 3 mile trip to see her in almost a YEAR is because we're holding her hostage. No lie. I'm not ranting, this is merely the way my sister and her husband have presented the situation. These 'paths' ( pick one, my T feels obviously diagnosable, at least, beyond what I know to be in print already ) are incredible at torquing the truth, dangerously so. John Q. Public, despite what is visible to their EYES and a lot of them depsite knowing me for a couple of decades will choose to believe they themselves are WRONG, their own eyes and hearts and heads are wrong. Incredible. I'm just using myself as an example, it's a pretty good one, what happens when TWO disordered people get together.
And oh my gosh, I dislike throwing my hands up and despairing of a human being's healing, much less 2 but I just do not see it occuring. I AM the World's Greatest Opitimist, which has played Holy H*ll with the PTSD, let me tell you! :) I can see neither of these people seeing a T, unless it would be to do that 'thing' where they would go to USE the therapist as part of their little game of the moment. You know, LOOK how broken I am because xyz person did THIS to me. You can only get yourself healed if you are genuine ( much less truthful! ) with your therapist. I'll bet if anyone here were to ask their T how many 'paths' have gone to them to be healed/fixed because they were worried about the damage they were doing to other people, the answer in a 20 year veteran of the sociopath war would be " Er, 3? ". I'm not being snotty, I just do not see any of them sincerely believing they require help.
That smooth, almost emotionless thing you described, with zero introspection and no real reaction? That'd be him. OH yes, we HEAR alll about how he 'goes off' on various people because he's so full of testosterone, and he's MEAN to people while smiling. Also, the single instance in 15 years I've personally had knowledge of him exploding is at ( wait for it ) a quite literally dying, very elderly, extremelyyyy sick man, while his equally ill wife was restrained in the next room. By my sister, the other 'path of whatever stripe she is. I suspect very much the explosion itself was carefully calculated for a single purpose anywa, which did not occur, thank God. It had also been engineered to happen a. while my husband and I were 800 miles away, on an ISLAND, for God's sake, in the woods and b. while my mother had a diagnosis the docs told us which could cause he to fall over dead if a door slammed. Sometimes things are exactly as bad as they sound as this was.
Your post just underlined for me what really has been my suspision, plus my T IS one of the rare ones treating survivors and keeping all kinds of safeguards on them, too. You never think you're going to write the words ' If anything happens to me, please know THIS... '. Well, he's our repository who in turn has one. And yes, according to my sister(s), I'm indeed crazy, with so many heartless actions directed at my mother that if they were true I'd be in jail. These people are incredibly, incredibly good at torquing outrageous into 'truth' and done in such a way that folks just plain believe them. I've never seen anything like it. ( Sorry so long. In the same way that your post was helful because it was recognizable, what if my experiences at the moment are the same for someone? ) For instance. My husband and I are clearly ( and believe me, quietly ) getting my mother's 5 bedroom house packed up ( with ZEROOO help beyond our kids, seriously, nothing ), which includes an awful lot of my sister's cr*p, have built her an apartment with OUR money, have done allll her doc appointments, trips, etc., relieved her ( deservedly so ) of 8-% of her every day bills and generally just are there for her every, single day.Heck, her little place is 20 feet from ours, it's nice. Now, if you brought a film crew to this town, depsite what you SEE, the concrete evidence, the public opinion would be that my sister is running herself into the hospital, she's working SO hard maintaining my mother, that I'm making my elderly mother keep house for us and we have her hostage here while cleaning out her bank account, and the reason not ONE of the 6 other grandchildren and her other greatgrandchild have made the 3 mile trip to see her in almost a YEAR is because we're holding her hostage. No lie. I'm not ranting, this is merely the way my sister and her husband have presented the situation. These 'paths' ( pick one, my T feels obviously diagnosable, at least, beyond what I know to be in print already ) are incredible at torquing the truth, dangerously so. John Q. Public, despite what is visible to their EYES and a lot of them depsite knowing me for a couple of decades will choose to believe they themselves are WRONG, their own eyes and hearts and heads are wrong. Incredible. I'm just using myself as an example, it's a pretty good one, what happens when TWO disordered people get together.
And oh my gosh, I dislike throwing my hands up and despairing of a human being's healing, much less 2 but I just do not see it occuring. I AM the World's Greatest Opitimist, which has played Holy H*ll with the PTSD, let me tell you! :) I can see neither of these people seeing a T, unless it would be to do that 'thing' where they would go to USE the therapist as part of their little game of the moment. You know, LOOK how broken I am because xyz person did THIS to me. You can only get yourself healed if you are genuine ( much less truthful! ) with your therapist. I'll bet if anyone here were to ask their T how many 'paths' have gone to them to be healed/fixed because they were worried about the damage they were doing to other people, the answer in a 20 year veteran of the sociopath war would be " Er, 3? ". I'm not being snotty, I just do not see any of them sincerely believing they require help.
Don't trip
Silver Member
anni,
So glad things resonate for you. There are a lot of 'neon signs' going off in my head as I read it, lol! so typical to the disordered.
I think keeping 'silent' or 'hiding' about mental disorders, whether it's PTSD or psychopathy is WRONG. Just my opinion. Why do we have mental health awareness day or the many therapists we do (need more) if having a mental disorder is so 'hush-hush'. I hate the secretiveness and apathy of society about ANY disorder. It's all based in FEAR.
Yea, I'm scary alright *sigh*
But the Cluster B ARE scary. I just had a run in with one this last weekend (I wrote about this on another post) in the form of my son's bf. He was DIAGNOSED narcissist too and I OVERLOOKED it and decided to give him the benefit of the doubt, BIG, BIG mistake, because when they discard you and find no use for you any longer, WOAH. The son's bf has been stalking me via a remote logger he has on my computer that I found today. He's a 'computer geek' and while he was staying with us, he must have put it onto my computer.
These people are incredibly frightening. And it's why no contact is so important. Having a lack of empathy means they are capable of ANYTHING, absolutely ANYTHING and can sell the most UNBELIEVABLE stories they've made up from a grain of truth and people will BUY IT without question.
This 19 year narcissist is attempting to frighten me, my other son and to destroy my credibility.
I have learned MANY lessons from this. I will be MUCH MORE careful with trust. I don't know what i was thinking in trusting this individual. And he was diagnosed. That's just how good they are.
Hang in there, anni. Trust your intuitiveness. Many people don't. There is a great book to read called, "The Gift of Fear". Well worth the read!
So glad things resonate for you. There are a lot of 'neon signs' going off in my head as I read it, lol! so typical to the disordered.
I think keeping 'silent' or 'hiding' about mental disorders, whether it's PTSD or psychopathy is WRONG. Just my opinion. Why do we have mental health awareness day or the many therapists we do (need more) if having a mental disorder is so 'hush-hush'. I hate the secretiveness and apathy of society about ANY disorder. It's all based in FEAR.
Yea, I'm scary alright *sigh*
But the Cluster B ARE scary. I just had a run in with one this last weekend (I wrote about this on another post) in the form of my son's bf. He was DIAGNOSED narcissist too and I OVERLOOKED it and decided to give him the benefit of the doubt, BIG, BIG mistake, because when they discard you and find no use for you any longer, WOAH. The son's bf has been stalking me via a remote logger he has on my computer that I found today. He's a 'computer geek' and while he was staying with us, he must have put it onto my computer.
These people are incredibly frightening. And it's why no contact is so important. Having a lack of empathy means they are capable of ANYTHING, absolutely ANYTHING and can sell the most UNBELIEVABLE stories they've made up from a grain of truth and people will BUY IT without question.
This 19 year narcissist is attempting to frighten me, my other son and to destroy my credibility.
I have learned MANY lessons from this. I will be MUCH MORE careful with trust. I don't know what i was thinking in trusting this individual. And he was diagnosed. That's just how good they are.
Hang in there, anni. Trust your intuitiveness. Many people don't. There is a great book to read called, "The Gift of Fear". Well worth the read!
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