Processing Trauma V Dealing With Relationship: I'm Not Sure This Can Work...

[amosmorris]

I could use some advice on this one as I'm struggling mightily. My T--who indeed I do cherish and have been seeing now for about 20 months--wants me to spend "even a nanosecond" more time feeling the bad trauma-related feelings (which are sexual, developmental, and interpersonal in nature). At the same time one of our core struggles in our therapeutic relationship is her non-disclosure stance. I struggle so much with trust and feeling safe when she doesn't talk about herself--minute details I'm talking about here--that I keep hitting this wall where I can't just let myself go like I think she wants me to.

The last time we hit this wall she insisted that she wanted to be responsive to me, that she maybe needed to be a bit more flexible and she made a couple tiny gestures to this end. She explained that she worries that if she is more open about herself it won't help me as much--as clearly there's some big issue that gets triggered by this non-disclosure bit, and we need to feel it and explore it etc so we can understand it (there's the psychodynamic angle, I guess). Desperate to not keep hitting this wall myself I told her how helpful that angle was in terms of helping me understand. She for her part apologize for how it hurt me to be so non-disclosing and said that obviously was too much and she can loosen a bit. And so then I tried these last couple weeks to forge ahead, telling her with absolutely no feeling about some of my sexual triggers, and a disturbing sexual dream I had...and then I have proceeded to struggle out of session a lot with just feeling like she's a damn optical illusion (can't pull up her face clearly, can't remember what color she was wearing--we've talked about these things in the past though I can't seem to fix them).

Here's where I'm at though: in reading a lot on this forum about others' experiences, I'm starting to think you can't do both things at once--this psychodynamic relational stuff and the trauma work. Frankly, I don't really need to look far and wide to understand why I react negatively to her withholding stance--I was the carrier of some ugly adults' secrets my whole life growing up, and I experienced plenty of withheld affection and openness as well. So what is there to explore? I get it. But while she's posing as someone who's familiar to me--in a bad way--I'm not able to trust enough and just let go with the ugly sexual trauma feelings and memories.

I'm going to talk to her about this in session this week, but just wanted to check in for any advice. I feel like a broken record on this issue. I drown in the transference with her and worry about how vulnerable I am, and I have never been so attached to a therapist before and don't want to leave her. But I continue to get stuck here. Thanks in advance....

 

[Arebas]

I wish I knew what to say to you. I understand how you feel but for me it's exactly the opposite. I know too much about my T and I always worry that she has enough on her plate to also care about me. So I lock up inside and can't share anything. I always try to tell myself that I have to see her as a tool, not a person like all the other persons in real life but it's impossible. I understand that your issue is that she becomes less of a real person? Maybe she knows people like me have this thing happen when they disclose too much and she's afraid to get to that point cause then it's really difficult to forget what you already know. But maybe she's drawing the line a little too far away from what you'd be ok with.
I honestly have no idea of what to say to you but I know this has to be incredibly frustrating for you. Wish I could help!

 

[BlueOrange]

I struggled with this for a few years. My therapist was asking me to do what I only do with my close friends. Given that friendship is a two-way street, surely they should open up to me?

I eventually realized that my therapist is not my friend. They are many good and wonderful things, but I don't pay people to pretend to be my friends. I pay my therapist for advice, and to ask me difficult questions.

It's a different kind of relationship than anything that anyone is used to. The powers and obligations on both sides are different. And I'd encourage you to open up to them, accepting that they will never open up to you.

 

[Deleted member 31998]

Well it sounds like there is a mild lack of respect around boundaries. Also more often than not people may not see eye to eye with their T's which could hinder any recovery or progress that has been made. What are you feeling about this situation? Do you feel that you are benefiting from the relationship? Do you feel like your own boundaries are being disrespected in any way?

Take care

 

[Justmehere]

At the same time one of our core struggles in our therapeutic relationship is her non-disclosure stance. I struggle so much with trust and feeling safe when she doesn't talk about herself--minute details I'm talking about here--that I keep hitting this wall where I can't just let myself go like I think she wants me to.

What kinds of details do you want her to share? Can you give some examples?

I could actually tell you some horror stories of therapist self
disclosing and how it impacted my recovery negatively... but I don't know if that would help, and I'm not sure what kind of self disclosure you are looking for.

She explained that she worries that if she is more open about herself it won't help me as much--as clearly there's some big issue that gets triggered by this non-disclosure bit, and we need to feel it and explore it etc so we can understand it (there's the psychodynamic angle, I guess).

Studies have shown the single biggest factor in effective therapy (and there are many, this is just the biggest) is the quality of relationship between therapist and client. This is more important than technique used. So yes, it's kind of a psychodynamic thing, and it's something inherent in doing any therapy of any kind. The therapeutic relationship is something to navigate together.

and then I have proceeded to struggle out of session a lot with just feeling like she's a damn optical illusion

Have you felt this way with anyone else in your life now or in the past?

Are there other things she could do except for self disclosure that would help you know she is a real person who cares for you?

Here's where I'm at though: in reading a lot on this forum about others' experiences, I'm starting to think you can't do both things at once--this psychodynamic relational stuff and the trauma work.

I actually don't know how one could fully separate the two. Trauma work almost always inhernetly involves relationship work.

Frankly, I don't really need to look far and wide to understand why I react negatively to her withholding stance--I was the carrier of some ugly adults' secrets my whole life growing up, and I experienced plenty of withheld affection and openness as well. So what is there to explore? I get it. But while she's posing as someone who's familiar to me--in a bad way--I'm not able to trust enough and just let go with the ugly sexual trauma feelings and memories.

Wait.

Let's pause here a moment.

The adults around you (probably caregivers) as a kid self disclosed what they shouldn't, and they probably claimed to care for you... and here you are, feeling like you can't connect to an adult/caregivers unless they self disclose what they feel they shouldn't.

I think you may be trying to subconsciously reenact the past as a path to sit with the bad feelings of the past. (I do it myself in different ways.) Because of this, I think this needs to be further explored more with your therapist before pushing for more self disclosure.

 

[amosmorris]

What kinds of details do you want her to share? Can you give some examples?

I could actually tell y...

Ugggggh....so many good insights and questions! @Justmehere thank you so much for all this thoughtful feedback. I trust you know that this whole thing is just breaking my brain....:banghead:

So--yes: caregivers "disclosing" way too much--in fact so much it could be called abuse. And yes, they claimed to care about me, at least my mother would say so; my father really couldn't articulate so much but my mother assured us he did. My father was very distant and cold, withholding of affection of all kinds, and then when he wasn't those things he was very angry and a bully. There was a lot of keeping secrets that weren't very secret (ie I knew I wasn't supposed to talk about xyz), lots of kids taking on adult needs and problems.

And from the T--I don't even have specific questions or info I am seeking. It's just the fact of it--the distance and the deliberate withholding of things that seem like minor, innocuous details (like "I had a nice vacation in Bermuda" or "my kid is in college" would feel like life rafts...but it could be other things...I'm not even particular)--that freaks me out. I just think (this is how my mind goes, anyway): if there are secrets, it's to cover up something bad; if we aren't supposed to talk about xyz, it's because it's bad;...I think, she is hurting me and will hurt me if I lean further into her so blindly. I wonder how like or different from your experience of therapist disclosure this would be? It sounds like what you experienced was very negative--thank you for sharing that--and I appreciate that there is a line here that can be really hurtful too. I know there are folks on this board who've been way on the other side.

I try super hard to learn from her stance and to respect the choices and to understand that they are theoretically informed. And for her part I know she's tried really hard to be responsive, to keep engaging me on this issue, to take it on where she can, but....ultimately I don't know what I need to feel safe and I worry that what I do need (whatever that is--and we've talked about that too--) is just beyond where she's comfortable. And wow I feel like so repulsive, you know? Like I have some sort of plague.

It's a really tough issue for me. I know it's complicated and so very shaped by my past. I am writing here honestly about how I react and feel, but even as I write I know I have another level of awareness that's separate from feeling--I'm trying to be more objective, too, and to understand how things are related. @Justmehere thank you for your compassionate response--I'll keep thinking. This is a real help to me. :hug:

 

[amosmorris]

I wish I knew what to say to you. I understand how you feel but for me it's exactly the opposite. I know...

This is interesting @Arebas --thank you for sharing it. So--why do you know so much about your T? Is it just her style? Is it because there was a point at which you asked and then now you regret getting more info?

 

[amosmorris]

Well it sounds like there is a mild lack of respect around boundaries. Also more often than n...

Thanks for this @outsideperception. No, I don't feel that my boundaries are being disrespected and I do think I've benefited from the relationship so far--it's opened up some really hard stuff for me and so much is changing. As hard as it's been I would not go back. If anything I think I am used to having my boundaries disrespected by caregivers--and so perhaps that's some of what is at issue here for me. I'm not sure. It's really challenging stuff--I don't have the words really for how hard I find it all, but I know many on this board know the frustration and this brings me some comfort.

 

[Justmehere]

if there are secrets, it's to cover up something bad; if we aren't supposed to talk about xyz, it's because it's bad;..

That's what I think as well. I have a hard time with people who are vague and don't tell me what they are thinking. As a kid, secrets meant there was DANGER... I tend to be quite open and honest (to a fault) and I used to be leary of vague people. At a PTSD psychoeducational seminar, I learned that this is a really common thing for some trauma survivors to really get spooked by anything that feels like a secret. Despite that, trauma therapists still tend to be very careful about disclosing with clients.

But it's changed for me lately. Why? Because I dared to let myself not know everything, or even a lot of details, and *experienced* that it was still safe. It was hella uncomfortable and really hard, but worth it. I still want to know more, but I don't always have to know more to feel safe.

Therapy is a place to try new things. Experiment with new ways of interacting. If the way we have been doing things was working for us, we wouldn't be in therapy. This may be a time for you to try something new.

if there are secrets, it's to cover up something bad; if we aren't supposed to talk about xyz, it's because it's bad;...I think, she is hurting me and will hurt me if I lean further into her so blindly.

Maybe when this comes up, there are other ways to test out the safety of the relationship. Perhaps you could ask her what she thinks about what you are sharing, how she feels about it, and share any in the moment fears you have. Fears that she will hurt you and etc. There are other ways to build intimacy and connection in therapy.

I think, she is hurting me and will hurt me if I lean further into her so blindly. I wonder how like or different from your experience of therapist disclosure this would be?

I have had therapists share quite a bit of detail, and they meant it therapeutically. The thing is, it rather backfired. One therapist told me about her trauma history, in too much detail, and it made me reluctant to share anything with her for fear it would stir up too much. Another therapist shared her life, like too much, so much that she sort of slid into treating me so much like a friend she tried to match me up with someone she knew that she wanted me to date: her own son. It screwed up any chance of trauma work with her, and really any chance at effective therapy.

With another therapist, I accidentally found out from a overly gossipy third party that she was going through a divorce. It made it hard for me to do trauma work in a way I didn't expect.

The thing about wanting to know about our therapists is that their lives are not usually perfect. They are flawed and they have their own struggles. It doesn't make them unsafe, but it can mean that it really changes the space in the therapy room. It stops being about our stuff.

Therapy is a super awkward relationship. It is one-sided. It will always be one sided. Even if you know details of your therapist, it will still be weirdly one-sided. There will always be things about our therapists they will hold back. Even the most gestalt-y therapist (and some gestalt therapists believe in using a LOT of self disclosure) will hold some things back.

Part of why therapists don't self disclose is because it let's them not slide into being our friends by accident. It helps them stay professional.

Another reason why therapists don't self disclose is because it lets the stuff that we need to deal with come up and be projected on to them. Like what is happening for you. It's not the opposite of doing the work of resolving trauma, it's part of it.

ultimately I don't know what I need to feel safe and I worry that what I do need (whatever that is--and we've talked about that too--) is just beyond where she's comfortable. And wow I feel like so repulsive, you know? Like I have some sort of plague.

This seems like a belief that has to do with more than just her not sharing details of her life. It might be worthwhile exploring who first gave you the message that things you share, or that even you as a person, could ever be repulsive. Because it's wrong.

I have friends who have shared some really big traumas and histories with me, and it never made me feel repulsed by them. I was maybe disgusted by the perp that hurt them, but not them. I actually felt grateful. There have been people in my life who have had really big needs. Sometimes I couldn't meet those needs, but I never saw them as repulsive.

In therapy, there are times where clients have needs that come up that therapists can't meet. That's ok. It doesn't mean we are repulsive. In the case of childhood trauma survivors, it's often the case that desires and needs come up that therapists can't meet - and that's a place to mourn and grieve that we didn't get what we needed as a kid. It doesn't mean that the need can never be met.

And from the T--I don't even have specific questions or info I am seeking. It's just the fact of it--the distance and the deliberate withholding of things that seem like minor, innocuous details (like "I had a nice vacation in Bermuda" or "my kid is in college" would feel like life rafts...but it could be other things...I'm not even particular)--that freaks me out

A few things I have asked therapists that help me get to know them, but still lets most of them hold boundaries they need:
1.) why did you become a therapist?
2.) what do you like best about being a therapist?
3.) where did you go to school and get your degree and license?
4.) what kind of continuing ed classes have you taken lately?
5.) how do you think you can help me?
6.) what do you think I need to improve on?
7.) Crazy weather today, huh? (I live in a place of a lot of crazy weather)

You could ask these types of questions, and maybe it would help her seem more like a real person, if she is inclined to answer... but I would not ask this kind of stuff as an exchange for exploring how this could be a reenactment to recreate over-sharing relationship you had with parental caregivers as a kid. But maybe a few of these types of questions might help you connect with her as a real person just enough to try something different and new with her.

It's a really tough issue for me. I know it's complicated and so very shaped by my past. I am writing here honestly about how I react and feel, but even as I write I know I have another level of awareness that's separate from feeling--I'm trying to be more objective, too, and to understand how things are related.

You are doing great at working through this. Again, therapy is a super weird awkward relationship at times. There are things between my therapist and I that play out in the sessions that weird us both out. The key thing is that my therapist and I both stay in it (to a point) and continue to work it out.

Part of what is really healing about many forms of trauma work for childhood trauma survivors is when something called a corrective emotional experience happens: when we get a new and different response than we got in the past when we are sitting with the feelings of pain from the past. It's sometimes very painful to go through.

The space that your therapist is trying to hold - a space that is just for you - the kind of space you never got as a kid, a space that is finally just about you and your needs and how your therapist can help meet them - may actually be something that could help you heal.

 

[amosmorris]

That's what I think as well. I have a hard time with people who are vague and don't tell me what the...

You are so generous, @Justmehere --thank you so so so much for all the time and care that went into this response. You know what I want to throw some sort of temper tantrum against is your line "a space that is finally just about you and your needs and how your therapist can help meet them"...because in my head I think I am for once asking for something, articulating my needs--be a little more open!--and those needs are being frustrated "for my own good." And anyway--besides that--as you pointed out, when we are talking about childhood trauma issues sometimes the reality is those needs just are not going to be met, as that ship has sailed. And maybe that's the hardest part, right, the thing I most don't want to really deal with--? The stuff that is just lost, you know.

But then I think about what you're posing here as alternatives--I have never asked those kinds of questions and think that sort of feedback would help me, esp since I don't really have specific info I am seeking--and maybe that could eventually be an optional route. And beyond that, your stories here about therapist disclosure def make clear how it can all foil the progress....esp that T who tried to set you up with her son. Wow--my heart dropped on that one--I'm sorry that happened. I get how that would ruin everything, of course. :(

 

[watundah]

I had big issues with the nondisclosure thing too. T ended up letting me ask her any questions I wanted as long as it didnt turn into focusing on her and her problems. She understood based upon what I told her that I cant open up to people I dont know. I have always been protective and reserved so extroverts and folks who overshare are ones I attach to...quite the opposite of a therapist. Flip side - it isnt a cure all. Trust takes time, sometimes a really long time, and you work on issues while she gains your trust. I know a lot about her now (she has kids, is divorced, blah blah blah), but Im glad it's all anout me. Baby steps. Hang in there. It does get easier

 

[Arebas]

This is interesting @Arebas --thank you for sharing it. So--why do you know so mu...

She was my brother's T for years. Then she also helped my sister for a while so, when I got there she was like part of the family already. I think she had heard a lot about me and when I started going trust was a big issue for me and she was comfortable opening up to try and put me at ease. We're Spanish and I think, generally, we also tend to overshare? It's the only T I've had so I don't know if that's the way it is here. I asked only after she told me anything personal, to see how that was going. I always feel like intruding asking people questions about themselves so maybe she was only using herself to help me practice, so I could learn to interact with others.