Let's discuss "harrassment"

[Sideways]

if you're offended and never express it, how is anyone supposed to know their behavior might be considered offensive?

The benefit of this situation seems to be the insight you get into yourself. He said that, you find it offensive. That tells you a lot about yourself and your values and maybe even the kinds of relationships you’re going to invest in, or put boundaries around.

And yeah, sometimes you call someone out on some sexist aside and they say, “Cripes, sorry I didn’t realise”. Sometimes the situation or the relationship warrants you making a bit of a stand. Not often!

Unfortunately, with the rest of the crap we have going on already, we’re not well placed to make that stand. Emotionally, we don’t have much legroom.

But there are ways and means. Letting the ladies know “That comment about the estrogen was pretty offensive”, maybe there’s some solidarity to be found there? Maybe that lets them know that they don’t have to laugh next time?

And maybe there’s a little bit of personal liberation in not just letting it go each time? If it would feel empowering to you to say something? “To hell with everyone else’s standards, this isn’t okay with me.” Maybe give it a try?

 

[EveHarrington]

I'm going with ego.

I think it also stems from a sense of insecurity.

I think of it this way.

What if someone said "heh, it must be melanin!" to chalk up behavior of people with darker skin? Same thing. Using an arbitrary trait to paint everyone with the same brush. It really is unacceptable. But yet, society still accepts negative comments toward certain groups of people.

 

[The Albatross]

When I have to work with someone like that, my goal is to make sure that it's HIM that gets hurt, not my client, or their animal, or me.

Wow. That's your "GOAL" when you work with a person who you perceive is insensitive? In the time that you were writing the bit I quoted, which is slower than actually speaking - did you hold yourself to the standard that you want to expect from others?

Scout said: "...how is anyone supposed to know their behavior might be considered offensive? Or, maybe everyone should just get a free pass to be as much of a jerk as they want? (I guess that's actually a serious option.) I really don't know. I'd like to live in a world where people respect each other. How do we get there? Is that a worthwhile goal? Do these guys have any clue what it's like to have it suggested to them that they're inherently less competent because of their gender? Most likely not."

Personally I think that it's pretty unrealistic to think/expect/be responsible for living in a world where people respect each other on an incident by incident basis all day every day 24/7/365. Too much brain power for me to spend on each and every person I meet in any given day. So if I'm honestly not capable of it impeccably then it's a lovely thought but a completely unrealistic expectation for other people. The frontal lobe can only hold typically about 5-7 things. So using your opening post example the guy might have had a lot going on like did I bring the right items/med to do this task? What's the demeanor of the animal I'm treating. How can I accomplish this task safely? Is everybody to do this task reliable? I am thirsty I wish I'd brought my water bottle. Hope this goes well. I got to be at my next location in x minutes so let's get this show on the road. We all do that and drop and add items to our frontal lobes in fractions of seconds all day every day - unconsciously no matter what the situation or task. Sometimes we can sneak one in like Oooh, love that gal's blouse, and the mouth opens and out comes, "Ooooh, love your blouse! Can I ask you where you found that?"

The key to me rather than offensiveness as a standard is intent and deliberateness (i.e. Is the person deliberately doing or saying xyz to upset me or somebody. Then, generally (if not right this moment), is the person a good willed, fair, well intentioned person or not. Also, I don't think that your average every day Joe or Jane or whoever is all that conscious and deliberate or judicious with what they say to everybody at all times in every situation. We're talking about fractions of a second between the time a brain sparks off and something comes out of someone's mouth. Seriously.

Yeah... I give em a pass unless I'm willing to act to deal with it right then on the spot while the situation is in the present and once the opportunity is gone... No, I don't overthink it. "Maybe they should at least think about it?" - you can (and are) thinking about it but what people "should" think about... naw, naw, naw. Maybe your efforts to educate and enlighten people would be better served in an organization in the area of interest. If you want to impose on yourself the socially conscious way of being on yourself that's great... your consistency could well model the behavior you value and that's a great thing for everybody.

Okay so now that you've decided it's "offensiveness" rather than harassment - I'm off the topic. I got no interest these days, contributing to anybody's pet expectation from other people or society in general. I think there's too damn much of that already, actual genuine legitimate issues not withstanding.

 

[Deleted member 28740]

Okay so now that you've decided it's "offensiveness" rather than harassment - I'm off the topic.

Lots of "… quoted…" but not quoted. Why? Mostly seems all cherry picked out of context, and NOT quoted to go back to for context, accuracy etc.

 

[Sideways]

Here in lil ol Aus, sexual harassment in the workplace doesn’t need to be deliberately intended to offend in order to constitute “harassment”. So, the person doesn’t have to be deliberately setting out to make a person (or group of people) feel offended or humiliated.

And I think that’s important, because in some workplaces, the cultural “humour” becomes incredibly toxic, and even though the offensive people perhaps should have realised their behaviour was going too far and leaving people feeling humiliated, they often don’t think about it. Till someone points it out.

That’s not to say you have any kind of obligation to point out inappropriate behaviour. Just that there doesn’t have to be some kind of malicious intent to put you down in order for it to be harassment. Certainly here, the expectation is that in the workplace, people have a responsibility to not behave in ways that are going to leave their coworkers feeling humiliated. It’s a positive obligation placed on everyone to try and be mindful of not humiliating their coworkers at work.

So, he may not have thought about whether his comments would be offensive or humiliating, but, because he’s in the workplace, he actually has an obligation to think about it, whether he likes it or not.

The laws have been used to curb workplace behaviour in places where this type of derogatory humour becomes pervasive. The law steps in and basically says “You’re being offensive, you’re making certain people feel humiliated, and whether you intended to or not, that’s not acceptable in a workplace.”

I have no idea what the laws are elsewhere. But to me, the moment someone is intentionally trying to humiliate you, it would potentially become abuse, rather than just harassment.

 

[Deleted member 41765]

I'm a late arrival here so I'll keep it brief.

“You’re being offensive, you’re making certain people feel humiliated, and whether you intended to or not, that’s not acceptable in a workplace.”

I love this. In my experience the slope between offensive and harassment is a slippery one and challenging to navigate in the moment.

@scout86 What an discomfiting experience. In support, although slightly off topic, I've this to share:

As an animal care tech at a marine mammal center, I recently had the experience of working with a visiting vet tech (male), unused to being around the types of patients we treat. He was dead set on *immediately* performing a minor procedure, one that was not time sensitive. We were partnered for the patient in that pen, a large sub adult sea lion with suspected leptospirosis, a zoonotic disease. I stated, before we even went into the pen, that the animal appeared too stressed and that we should wait until the afternoon feed. This was abjectly ignored. Once we went in, which should not have happened, the animal showed clear signs of heightened stress, which I attempted to call his attention to. My second verbal waring was given an eye roll; this guy didn't even deign to respond verbally. Fast forward a bit--he was bitten and as we came out of the pen said something along the lines of "why didn't you...." in an attempt to shift blame.

No, this is not harassment, but the assumptions at play? This guy went further and attempted to wield his perceived status with the resident vet, a person (woman) with whom I've worked for three years, and "report me." The tech was dismissed. I wonder if he contracted lepto?

Do these guys have any clue what it's like to have it suggested to them that they're inherently less competent because of their gender? Most likely not. Maybe they should at least think about it?

I agree.

 

[Deleted member 28740]

Kiwi kid and still love the All Blacks. On the Guardian article of an AB loss to OZ - Posted: "Is it true that DV goes up when the AB's lose?"
Words - how do feel, gut feel? Then there are the legal parsing with no consistency between individuals or the law. Those that "complain" loose jobs and careers. Tip of the ice burg to call out the not subtle "harassment." Yeah, just water cooler joking.

Dogs don't lie. Intent of any action is open. Humans lie.

For info on what is deemed and legal about work place harassment etc. - Q's what is the law, how it is enforced, results? The results are noxious. Money, power, trump remedy or change in culture.

 

[Upside Down Eagle]

I get why you´d feel weird about it.

At the same time, I suspect it´s nothing more than a silly joke. Guys like to joke about women because guys often don´t understand women. So that´s just their way of dealing with it. And estrogen does actually play a large role in mood, but those guys probably were just simplifying the issue down to "they´re women so they are upset".

Is it sexist? Yeah, a bit. Is it worth getting offended over - personally I think not.

People generally think that sexist comments are only directed at women, but this is not true. I have so often heard derogatory comments and jokes about men, about how they are backwards and stupid. Women do this, but guys do this too. They make themselves out to be lame and incompetent.

So maybe it boils down to - in what way do you value yourself? And are you going to let stereotypes and jokes define who you are?

Nowadays being offended is an issue. People use the word "triggered" all the time, only to mean that they are "offended". In my book, triggered means that something triggers a traumatic experience (in the context of PTSD), not that I feel bad because someone decided that "trans people are not real" (which automatically includes me).

Universities now have safe spaces for each and absolutely every category. I read an article about a university who created a safe space for lesbians who were overweight. No one else was allowed to enter. But isolating yourself from society as a group (and deriving some type of identity from being victimized) does not help anyone.

People should learn about each other. These guys are joking about estrogen because they have no clue what it´s like to be a woman and experience other emotions than the set of emotions that guys have. Perhaps they have never had a serious relationship with a woman where they could see and understand (and appreciate the value of) women´s way of behaving.

Or perhaps they were just kidding and they do admire this in women, but they don´t understand that their rude jokes are a tad insensitive. People who have been friends with me for years and greatly respect me sometimes ask the most crude and distasteful questions about gender like you wouldn´t believe. It´s just because they´re uninformed.

And then of course there are assholes who think that they rule the world. Those are best ignored.

 

[Deleted member 28740]

And then of course there are assholes who think that they rule the world. Those are best ignored.

Triggers. Nah. Those that do have PTSD they are not little might be offensive stupid blah.

So ignore the man that on film said he can grab any "pussy", yeah just ignore the asshole. 3,500 lawsuits, who can get to the truth. Who can afford to get the truth out?

 

[Upside Down Eagle]

Those that do have PTSD they are not little might be offensive stupid blah.

I´m afraid I don´t understand :D

Trump is a whole other can of beans. In my experience normal people are not like Trump. But that´s just me.

Yes, Trump is sexist and offensive. No, what he said can´t be excused. But I don´t think anything can change Trump. People can get upset and offended at what he says, sure. But it won´t change him personally. Perhaps they can get an apology out of him (and we all know that he won´t really mean it, it will be purely symbolic).

It´s up to the rest of civil society to deal with each other in an understanding manner.

 

[Deleted member 28740]

What behavior is acceptable to the common culture?

 

[Deleted member 41765]

Guys like to joke about women because guys often don´t understand women. So that´s just their way of dealing with it.

Which I find difficult to nearly impossible to navigate on a *daily* basis. "Guys" do a number of other things to women as a way of "dealing with it" that are often abhorrent, or merely unacceptable, depending on the perspective. I do not abide excuses.