Other Let's talk about indoctrination and brainwashing.

[Sideways]

We don't tell people who were raped that they should've been better able to spot the rapist, been able to set better boundaries or that they wouldn't have been the rapist's target if they'd had better self-esteem.

This is unhelpful.

First, because it’s not true. I’m not sure where you live, but victim-blaming is still very much a thing where I live. On every level. From the court system to the playground. Laws that are specifically directed at preventing victim-blaming have had almost zero impact in the judicial system here, and victim blaming at a community level is alive and well.

Second? Because comparing rape (a discrete episode of interpersonal sexual violence) is not the same thing as victim of a domestic violence relationship.

Apples and oranges.

There are elements of the psychological abuse that feel basically like brainwashing to me - my brain no longer responds to things in a way that makes sense to me.

Similarly, only in the broadest sense of the word. Like putting ‘brainwashing’ and ‘learning’ in the same basket. ‘Basically brainwashing’ - basically taught, basically programmed, basically…

I think broad strokes like that can be helpful, vaguely, in understanding what has happened to us. But, it can also be very unhelpful. Convincing ourselves “the thing I suffered was exactly like that”, when actually it wasn’t that, at all, seems more like avoidance to me. Of what you actually went through.

Rape and a relationship with a narcissist are not the same.
A pedophile grooming a child and love-bombing from a narcissist are not the same.
Progressively losing your sense of self and self esteem from a narcissist and brainwashing are not the same.

Indoctrination and brainwashing is typically organisational, or institutional. It involves an agenda, or philosophy, that (typically a group or institution) are intentionally indoctrinating members of their group with.

ETA Not meaning to invalidate your experience. Different, is neither better nor worse, just different. I’m not expressing myself well atm.

 

[Weemie]

I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Shaylee]

The context that I am interested in discussing is within the realm of organized groups. Whether they be the military, re-education camps, organized crime, rebel groups, cults and religious groups, gangs, and/or other violent non-state parties.

I find it interesting that cults and religious groups listed next to violent groups. Then I recall some of the militant religious cults, both past and present, and understand why.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are not a militant or violent group. They actively remain ambivalent to politics, refuse to do any service with any governmental military groups even if a non-violent job has a relationship with the military or the government then it isn’t an acceptable vocation. i know of many who had their own businesses who actively refused governmental contracts even for janitorial work because that would be misconstrued as being aligned with a worldly government.

In fact if you are persecuted then it is a point in pride and basically to be bragged about. Persecution of course in all forms, being made fun of and all the way up to and including death. Why? Because it is proof you are following in Jesus’ footsteps and proof the organization is the one true religion.

John 15: 18-20
[18] "If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.

[19] If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

The only time violence against others MAY be POSSIBLY justified is in self-defense, but only if you or your family may be harmed. If you kill someone in the act of self-defense then it is considered accidental and therefore not punishable. Sounds normal and completely reasonable, all normal… So far so good…. What people don’t know is that while the laws of men may pardon you, that is not what happens within the organization. Just because police or courts have made a decision, that doesn’t matter, those are those worldly courts, therefore man’s law. Man’s law is imperfect so it is up to the elders of your congregation to determine if you acted in accordance with Jehovah’s laws. It‘s a long process with LOTS AND LOTS of back room discussions, but that is normal for any wrongdoing discussions. Let’s just say you don’t want to be part of it if the circumstances are even remotely ambiguous if you wish to keep your standing.

It is all mental, psychological, verbal, emotional.

‘It is however completely acceptable to physically discipline children.

The concepts of mind-control seem far-fetched to me, and yet I spent a significant portion of my childhood convinced that my superiors could read my mind and thus I refused to allow myself to think in ways that contradicted their demands on me. This contributed to my compliance with their expectation that I act autonomously (without being physically forced by them).

Jehovah is omnipresent so he knows everything you think, say, do and nothing is private from him. He would guide, through his holy spirit, the organization to know of your shortcomings. That is what keeps you in line even when you are alone if you are a true believer. This is why it is so hard to have personal doubts because you know Jehovah is listening and will take action through the elders if you continue to have doubts.

One aspect of indoctrination that I believe is very difficult & challenging for outsiders to fully grasp is that it changes the way you view the world and it changes your morality and it changes the way you view yourself.

ohhh lots and lots of this ^^^^.
Worldly people (not JWs) are by nature corrupt and are tools used by Satan and his demons to lure you away from The Truth.
We were taught to not be part of ‘the world’.
For me there were also some mitigating circumstances that in effect proved them right.


Jws are obsessed with morality, spiritual, physical, mental and emotional. I don’t think there is such a thing as being too obsessive about it even on a personal level. In fact probably the more you are the more you are “an example to your brothers and sisters”. Which being that type of example is something to be aspired to.

I don’t know if changed any views of myself. I was born and raised with it. 3rd generation JW on my dad’s side and 4th gen. on my mother’s side, being a non-JW is a minority in my very large extended family. So I had no previous… save point? That was what I knew.

As easy as it is for others to tell me that it isn't my fault, I cannot believe that because I viewed myself as an equal member of my group and I wanted to be viewed as such and respected as such.

I didn’t have ‘fault’ in the same sense as Weemie. However, I run into “Well you know better now”. What people don’t understand is ‘knowing’ and ‘believing‘ are more separate things than most people give those two words credit for. I was equal, I was an example to others of how they should be, people looked to me for how to behave and be. I was respected, I was confident, mature. All my childhood issues would be handled by Jehovah so there was no need for me to address them. Besides, most of those things, they were done by worldly people, you could not expect better from them.

And even with a bunch of bullshit that did happen I never stopped believing in The Truth and in fact became more entrenched. That is until shit hit the fan and I was on the wrong side of the fence. I spent almost 2 years on the wrong side of the fence. My leaving, unlike many JWs, was not gradual or thought of in advance. I think I had doubts? But I don’t really recall. I think I did because of the fact I did leave. In the middle of a meeting. In front of everyone. November 10th, 1994. I was not yet 20 years old. (Still boggles my mind I did that). I did not fully disbelieve the teaching for... 4-6 years later? That was only after much research, years and years of research, ironically that started out to PROVE JWs were The Truth even though I left. Even though I had been put through the wringer, even though I was treated like a leper by my family and other brothers and sisters. Even though all of it was condoned by the elders and the Governing Body. There was more shame and guilt than I can relay. Physically painful even.

…means that my sense of myself is wrong. My family was not my family, my people were not my people, I was not myself.

^^^^ Yes, everything is wrong and upside down, inside out and twisted 10 ways in every direction.

The group is right and those who would oppose the group are wrong. There are specific thoughts, feelings and values that are repetitively pressed upon you.

^^^^ Yes, JW’s are extremely organized, take attendance every meeting, fanilies study before each meet to be prepared to answer questions. People bring notebooks to take notes for themselve. You walk the walk and talk the talk. Everyone not actively participating, even if they technically are JW’s, are severely frowned upon. It was an embarrassment to have family who was either 1) not part of JW’s, 2) Not active, or 3) had been disfellowshipped or outright left by disassociation. So people never mentioned it, it was a black mark.

the ultimate purpose is to open a conversation around the subject that encourages people from all walks of life to discuss their experiences with these topics.

I know that when people think of domestic violence the physical aspect is what is thought of. I know that the emotional, psychological and verbal aspects aren’t considered nearly as dangerous by ever so many. But that to me is Jehovah’s Witnesses. Yes, they look and appear to be nice, they even claim to be the most loving organization in the world.., but at the core it’s rotten and twisted They like to stay out of any limelight. Hidden in the shadows. Yet, there are almost 9 million of them worldwide, compared to about 2.4 million while I was active. and one of the faster growing cults.

I many times have received… kickback? Disbelief? But with YouTube, podcasts, Reddit, Discord and the many people bring them more in question (i.e. Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath: The Jehovah’s Witnesses' Special Event) it isn’t as bad.

@Weemie I don’t know if this was your concept of sharing? But I didn’t really know where to start.

 

[Weemie]

I don’t know if this was your concept of sharing? But I didn’t really know where to start.

Absolutely, 100%! And everything you talked about is hand-in-hand with typical experiences of cult membership and indoctrination. Experiences like yours are extremely valuable input here. Even though your group was not violent, there is a reason I listed religious groups right beside violent groups; because it's all part of the same whole. The same coercive control tactics are used to force people in line with a certain standard and to self-reinforce amongst themselves to police their own behaviors and keep others in line. From what it sounds like that is exactly what it was like for you, even though we both had a different central point (religion vs violence).

 

[Shaylee]

The same coercive control tactics are used to force people in line with a certain standard and to self-reinforce amongst themselves to police their own behaviors and keep others in line.

Yes, and fear. Fear of death (though in different ways) at the top of the list. For JW’s it is very subtle and happens for those studying to be witnesses gradually over time and is not an outright in your face thought no matter how long you have been in. But the organization always keeps up the sense of urgency through that absolute fear that you will die at Armageddon if you do not do X, Y, and Z.

There is no yelling, screaming, bribing, it is out of “love”. Hell, they don’t technically outright demand loyalty. They love you and want to see you survive Armageddon into the New World Order and live forever in Paradise.

It’s all in the words…. Words and more words, loaded language, where the real meanings of words are used but twisted. It complicates things rather dramatically once you step out into the real world. I one time told a friend i felt like a fish out of water because in some ways I had to relearn English. I wish I could say that is an exaggeration, I wish it was an exaggeration

 

[Shaylee]

Absolutely, 100%! And everything you talked about is hand-in-hand with typical experiences of cult membership and indoctrination. Experiences like yours are extremely valuable input here. Even though your group was not violent, there is a reason I listed religious groups right beside violent groups; because it's all part of the same whole. The same coercive control tactics are used to force people in line with a certain standard and to self-reinforce amongst themselves to police their own behaviors and keep others in line. From what it sounds like that is exactly what it was like for you, even though we both had a different central point (religion vs violence).

‘Ok, so to be honest, I still didn’t quite understand the grouping of say Jehovah’s Witnesses in with other violent groups. I went along with it because I can see some of the similarities.

However, I started reading a book by Marlene Winell, Leaving the Fold: A guide for former fundamentalists and others leaving their religion. She says, when sort of describing fundamentalists,

One chief characteristic is a mood of militant opposition to secular culture, liberal theology, higher criticism, and scientific views that challenge the Bible.

I had to go to the AI Doc about what on earth “a mood of militant opposition” is.

Key characteristics of a mood of militant opposition may include:

1. Aggressiveness: The use of forceful language, rhetoric, or actions to denounce, discredit, or suppress alternative viewpoints, dissenting voices, or critical analyses that challenge the orthodox beliefs, moral codes, or social norms promoted by the group, fostering an atmosphere of hostility, defensiveness, or intolerance towards diverse perspectives or intellectual inquiry.

2. Defensiveness: A hypersensitive, reactive, or defensive response to external criticism, skepticism, or scrutiny regarding the historical accuracy, ethical implications, or scientific validity of religious scriptures, dogmas, or traditions, leading to a closed-minded, rigid, or absolutist stance that rejects dialogue, debate, or engagement with conflicting evidence, theories, or interpretations.

3. Polarization: The reinforcement of an "us versus them" mentality that divides the world into binary categories of believers versus non-believers, faithful versus heretics, or righteous versus sinful individuals, fueling an atmosphere of suspicion, division, or exclusion based on ideological conformity, loyalty tests, or purity standards that define who belongs to the group and who is considered an outsider or antagonist.

4. Indoctrination: The promotion of an insular, insistent, or indoctrinatory approach to education, communication, or community life that discourages critical thinking, respectful dialogue, or autonomous decision-making in favor of doctrinal conformity, groupthink, or loyalty to charismatic leaders or divine authorities perceived as infallible, sacred, or inviolable sources of truth.

5. Inflexibility: The refusal to entertain ambiguity, complexity, or nuance in interpreting religious texts, historical events, ethical dilemmas, or existential questions that may challenge or expand individuals' understanding, compassion, or moral reasoning beyond the prescribed doctrines, moral absolutes, or divine mandates enforced by the group's leaders, traditions, or sacred texts.

#1 says “Aggressiveness”. In my mind I could not correlate that, yet the description fits. So I asked the AI Doc for an analogy…

The Gatekeepers vigilantly guard the city gates, ensuring that no external ideas, influences, or individuals deemed incompatible with the community's beliefs can enter. They stand ready to confront, condemn, or expel anyone who dares to question, critique, or offer alternative perspectives on the established doctrines and practices that govern daily life within the city walls.

the Gatekeepers symbolize the entrenched defenders of a mood of militant opposition that resists change, diversity, and pluralism in favor of doctrinal purity, spiritual certainty, and cultural uniformity at the expense of individual autonomy, intellectual curiosity, and ethical discernment required to navigate the complexities of faith, reason, and community life in an ever-evolving world shaped by diverse beliefs, values, and experiences that enrich, challenge, and transform our shared understanding of truth, justice, and compassion in the journey of self-discovery, interpersonal growth, and collective renewal that transcends the confines of dogma, division, or prejudice.

The shortened version of it.

With this I can more clearly see maybe why a religious group like JWs would fit here. Still something I am wrapping my head around. I am curious if this was along the lines of the at least the militant aspect you were alluding to? Am I understanding that better?

 

[Weemie]

I am curious if this was along the lines of the at least the militant aspect you were alluding to? Am I understanding that better?

Absolutely, you got it in one.