Let's discuss "harrassment"

[scout86]

Wow. That's your "GOAL" when you work with a person who you perceive is insensitive?

Maybe I wasn't clear. I don't want anyone to get hurt. But, if someone is going to set up a situation where they are making someone getting hurt more likely, I feel like I have more of an obligation to try to keep everyone else safe than I have an obligation to the one who's creating the problem. Besides, that person isn't going to listen to me anyone. Exactly like the situation @ShikibuZ described.

Guys like to joke about women because guys often don´t understand women.

I suppose. So they might not understand that being demeaned because of your gender gets old. Not being sarcastic there, I can see how they might not get it, because it's something they don't experience. But it DOES get old. Because, even when they joke among themselves, putting men down, I doubt they really mean it. Actually, it's kind of like someone who's black could use the N word in a joke and it wouldn't be offensive, like it would be if someone of another race did it.

And are you going to let stereotypes and jokes define who you are?

No. But, I also have to deal with the rest of the world. And, like I said, I guess I'm just getting a bit tired of having to do twice the job for half the credit. Or having to convince people that maybe I'm the "exception" who actually IS competent. Personally, being tired of it is probably just a phase, but right now, I'm tired of it.

But isolating yourself from society as a group (and deriving some type of identity from being victimized) does not help anyone.

Agreed!

and experience other emotions than the set of emotions that guys have.

There, you lost me. Men and women experience different emotions?

People who have been friends with me for years and greatly respect me sometimes ask the most crude and distasteful questions about gender like you wouldn´t believe. It´s just because they´re uninformed.

That I can understand, and relate to. And that kind of thing doesn't bother me, because I KNOW it's just that they don't know better and they'd never mean to be hurtful. What bothered me about this was that it seemed to come from a place where "respect" wasn't part of the picture. And it seemed like they were so confident of their own superiority that they were entitled to point it out.

I guess, personally, I see a bit of a slippery slope from this kind of thing to actual harassment. Or any other kind of bigoted behavior, for that matter. If you don't see the person you're talking about as a person worthy of respect, then how they feel about your behavior doesn't matter, does it? Isn't that why someone who runs around groping women thinks it's ok? Because what the women think doesn't matter? (The same in reverse, obviously.) Aren't a lot of the problems between people amount to one person or group not respecting the value of another, or valuing them less, or something? What do you do about that? Nothing?

 

[Upside Down Eagle]

Just so I am clear with everyone, I am not saying that it´s great for men to joke about everything, or that it´s great for men to put women down. I just think (IMHO) that there is a difference between jokes that clearly put women down and jokes that are intended in a benign way, but nevertheless are based on a stereotype and may cause women to feel like they are being made into a caricature.

@scout86 Men and women do not have different emotions per se (I should have said that in a different way). They experience emotions in different ways, in different degrees, and they do think differently. The reason I know this, is HRT (hormone replacement therapy). Testosterone affects the way in which you experience and perceive emotions. Estrogen does too.

Even I joke about women and estrogen. I´m not sure if that´s offensive, considering that I used to live in the female gender. My moods used to be more fluid and changeable, and there is nothing wrong with that. On testosterone, my moods are more stable, and more predictable (more boring, really). Nothing wrong with that either.

So if I joke about estrogen, it isn´t meant as something offensive. So that´s why I think it´s not always meant as an offensive thing if people joke about estrogen. Those men did not say "geez, these women are totally lame for having estrogen". They said something about estrogen. I get why other people view this differently but hormone therapy has changed the way I see these things.

I´m sure there are men who do use these comments in a derisive way, or implying that in their mind, women are inferior due to having estrogen. I think Donald Trump is one of those. But other than changing culture (which we are already doing, but at a slow pace) what can people do to make these men see clearly? Discussion with them is the only possible option.

I agree that those who are in power and make jokes like that (Trump) need to be held accountable. They are examples. But I´m not sure how you can hold the man on the street accountable. That´s why I think the best approach might just be to ignore the man. And realize that he has no clue what he´s talking about. If he´d had any good relationship with women, he´d know better.

In my experience there are more men who respect women, than men who don´t respect women. But I am guessing this also depends on the people you know and the place where you live. There are more men who don´t respect themselves and think of all men as backward idiots. I know these men and they are being serious, these are no jokes.

Just my experience :). Not intended to cause conflict.

 

[scout86]

My moods used to be more fluid and changeable, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I'm not sure I really experience that, but then my T tells me I tend not to even notice emotions a lot of the time. Actually, he had a great suggestion for situations like this. He said, "Just say 'Ouch!'" and let them figure it out. No point in arguing, or lecturing, because that tends to just make people defensive, but you let them know the remark hurt. How they handle that tells you something about them, I guess.

In my experience there are more men who respect women, than men who don´t respect women.

I hope that's true! I tend to think that's the case, and then something like this happens and makes me wonder how many of them are just lying and I'm stupid enough to fall for it. :(

 

[Sideways]

I definitely think there’s room for a bit of give and take.

But at the same time, I also think there’s a bit of space for a little more consideration, professionalism and respect. Especially in the workplace. The fact is, a lot of women find that jokes at womens’ expense aren’t funny. A lot of men don’t find jokes at men’s expense funny. And in the workplace, jokes like that aren’t necessary.

That a person lacks insight into how offensive their behaviour is? Doesn’t make that behaviour okay. It doesn’t mean “I should tolerate it then, because they didn’t realise...”. I’m with your T - with comments like this? I think “Ouch” would be a great response.

If someone were to point out to me “Do you realise that was offensive?” I could get defensive and tell them to be less sensitive. But personally? I’d like to think that actually, a comment like that would give me a moments pause. Do I really want to be making people uncomfortable just for the sake of a couple of jokes? No. I don’t.

 

[Upside Down Eagle]

Yeah I agree, that´s a great response. I hope I can remember it (just in case I encounter a similar situation)!

 

[Deleted member 41765]

If someone were to point out to me “Do you realize that was offensive?” I could get defensive and tell them to be less sensitive. But personally? I’d like to think that actually, a comment like that would give me a moments pause.

Again, love this, and would like to think a similar reaction for myself, yet question my ability on occasion. Often the tone of a particular suggestion considerably affects my response and (less advantageously) my reaction.

To overstate the obvious: it's not easy!

 

[somerandomguy]

Are we speaking personally or theoretically? To discuss Trump would be to discuss the theory of harassment, unless anyone here has been personally harassed by the President (I wouldn't be surprised, actually). It's quite clear that for the 40% of Americans that support Trump that theoretical harassment is not something they care about. The President can harass anyone he chooses to, as long as it's not someone they know personally, and they're fine with it.

Just my two cents of mansplaining. I feel like we're talking about an actual event here, so bringing Trump into it is less than helpful when discussing something that really happened.

 

[scout86]

Are we speaking personally or theoretically?

I was speaking personally, but wasn't speaking about Trump. (At least not that I remember.)

It's quite clear that for the 40% of Americans that support Trump that theoretical harassment is not something they care about

But THAT is something that bothers me. Especially since is sounds like quite a few women voted for him.

I'm not sure, exactly, what those votes mean, though. For me, his behavior was a total deal breaker. Couldn't have voted for him, even if I agreed with him on issues and thought he could be trusted. But, near as I can tell, some of the people who voted for him actually saw him as the lesser of two evils and would have preferred a different candidate. So, maybe they thought his treatment of others was bad, but not as bad as the alternative. I don't know. But, from talking to people in person, it's clear that a noticeable percentage of people don't have a problem with how he treats women, or Gold Star families, or former POW's, or anyone else who decides to stand up to him. I don't get it, I really don't. But, maybe there are more people who don't value civility than I thought.

I want to make it clear, though, this isn't about politics. It's about how people treat other people and why. I kind of think the nature of political discourse is related, but only because "people" are what does politics.

 

[anthony]

Stop the Trump talk in a thread about harassment. Unless Trump personally harassed you, drop it or this thread is closed and I start banning people for trolling threads with politic nonsense.

 

[hodge]

Anthony, can I just say that the reason Trump comes into this is that he is abuser-in-chief. He triggers so many of us. We don't have to have been harassed by him in particular to feel his sting. I do take issue with your characterization of this as nonsense, though I agree with you on virtually everything else. This is real and it's painful. And we in the U.S. are subjected to this bully every single day.

When the Access Hollywood tape came out, I remembered an incident I had forgotten. It threw me for a loop. I hope and pray you've never been through sexual assault or harassment. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, even Trump.

The fact is, he has opened up this snakebed and left us all to deal with it, as if we didn't have enough to deal with in our own personal lives. If we can't talk about that here, what then?
___________________________
JOEYLITTLE EDIT: Admin response to this should be read, here. No more Trump in this thread, period. - JL

 

[scout86]

he is abuser-in-chief.

I actually wouldn't give him that much credit.

I think he, maybe, got mentioned by someone as an example. My original intent was more to explore where the idea that it's ok to demean and/or disrespect someone "just because" comes from. And how to deal with it constructively. And, it's not just something women experience. I've heard men mention they've been harassed and feel left out of this conversation. I'm interested in hearing more about that. Also, trans people, like @Rad. I'm interested in "What haven't I thought of, yet?" regardless of who's having the experience.

 

[joeylittle]

He triggers so many of us. We don't have to have been harassed by him in particular to feel his sting. I do take issue with your characterization of this as nonsense, though I agree with you on virtually everything else

I take issue with you referring to people who are not you.

“He triggers so many of us” - this is the sort of generalization that creates massive problems in threads like this.

I’ve been harassed. I don’t find the current president triggering. And I often question whether he is being invoked for PTSD reasons, or whether it’s just using anything at hand to launch a political debate on why Trump is ruining the country.

Sometimes, it appears to be merely opportunistic to invoke Trump, whether the topic warrants it or not.

That’s why the topic of Trump isn’t going to continue in this thread. Period. It will obliterate all other
conversation, and it’s not what the thread is really about.

That’s all there is to say, and there’s to be no further discussion of it here.