News Gender identification - when to start the conversation

[Justmehere]

The approximate number of abused & neglected children = less than 1% of the total (child) population

That percent comes from CPS (child protective services) reports in the US. From the same source, the CDC, is this one caveat:

CPS reports of child maltreatment may underestimate the true occurrence. A non-CPS study estimated that 1 in 4 U.S. children experience some form of child maltreatment in their lifetimes.

(from: https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/childmaltreatment-facts-at-a-glance.pdf)

And this heartbreaking study that is part of that 1 in 4 figure - Violence, crime, and abuse exposure in a national sample of children and youth: an update. - PubMed - NCBI - concluded the following:

Two-fifths (41.2%) of children and youth experienced a physical assault in the last year, and 1 in 10 (10.1%) experienced an assault-related injury. Two percent experienced sexual assault or sexual abuse in the last year, but the rate was 10.7% for girls aged 14 to 17 years. More than 1 in 10 (13.7%) experienced maltreatment by a caregiver, including 3.7% who experienced physical abuse.

One thing to keep in mind, these are figures for the US, which has one of the worst rates of child abuse for industrialized nations. Also, this is not just parent-based abuse.

It still does remain true that the vast minority of children that are NOT abused, and the vast majority of parents that actually are very decent persons.

But what these studies begin to point at, perhaps indirectly, is that parental abuse isn't the only reason why some want the schools to address this issue. Child-to-child bullying can be quite severe for trans kids. So can other types of child-on-child bullying. That is the one place I see a solid argument for schools dealing with bullying kind of programs. Not just about trans issues, but across the board. That's quite different than gender identity education though. For example, this kind of program could race, religion, disability, socio-economic status, whatever.... About 0.6-1.5 percent of the population of kids and teens that are trans. Percent of kids with disabilities? 11-14 percent. Where is the equally robust campaign to teach kids to not bully based on disabilities? This is a significant issue.

One study shows that 60 percent of students with disabilities report being bullied regularly compared with 25 percent of all students.

(from: Students with Disabilities - National Bullying Prevention Center)
A program that teaches kids to not bully each other, no matter the type of difference, seems reasonable. But to focus in on one difference, to such a degree, and fail to address the others as robustly... seems weird to me. No bullying is ok. But why focus on this one singular difference?

 

[Scarlet13]

Bingo.....

Private schools are accountable to parents. They pay the bills. Government schools are...

So private schools make it even harder to have conversations about issues effecting kids such as sexuality and identity.
I work in a faith based school. We don't really talk about trans issues or homosexuality at all. We need to though, but through the lens of emotional awareness and inclusivity along with other issues. Through peer led conversations that are neutral and supportive.
This is in the Middle School.
Conversations that are on personally becoming transgender brought up by teachers seem inappropriate to me, but conversations on trans gender issues related to human rights/justice seem appropriate along with conversations on other marginalised groups.

The conversation changes for each grade. For 5 year olds, there should be no talk on "transgender issues" but simply open ended play and open teacher response to children's choices.

What is the program here? What is being presented in this school/district?
We are all discussing this topic without a complete understanding of what these teachers are actually saying and doing in the OP's district.

I am advocating for teaching through a cultural lens, teaching social emotional awareness, empathy, and inclusivity.
Im not talking about teachers influencing children's identities in either direction.

Strong diversity programs, inclusive communities, awareness of issues (for appropriate ages) are critical for ALL schools.
Also, caring validating teachers, for ALL students (abused and non abused alike).

 

[Deleted member 41765]

@Scarlet13 well said!

I will speak to my singular experience regarding "statistics" in the morning.

 

[Elef]

I think the whole gender identity movement is a backwards step. The forwards step would be for society to accept that being a boy and wanting to wear a dress and makeup and play with "girl" toys etc. doesn't mean you are in the wrong body. It simply means you are a boy who wants and likes to do those things. Vice versa for girls who prefer to do things that are considered normal for boys but not them.

Maybe I'm unusual, but there is nothing I can pinpoint that tells me I am a female. Other than my physical characteristics. So how would I know if I was a male trapped in the wrong body? How does a male feel? I can't even tell you how a female feels, and I am one.

I want to go and build stuff at the "Men's Community Shed". Would rather do that than pretty much any female social activity. I can't. Because I'm female. But that doesn't mean I'm really a bloke and should therefore transition to live as a male. It means I'm a female who doesn't share the preferences considered normal for my biological sex. And I deal with that. If any action should be taken, it should be in breaking down the stereotypes and artificial segregation and the pink and blue marketing.

Gender is a social construct. This whole movement is reinforcing the norms and stereotypes instead of breaking them down. Wait, there is a boy who wants to wear dresses...shit, we can't deal with that...quick let's find a way to put him in the girl box...ah that's it, he is really a girl who was born in the wrong body. It's madness. It really is. The real progressives accept that boys can like war and pink dresses and cooking and babies and action movies. They accept that this boy is still a boy - because of biology. What he likes to do and wear and how he likes to behave doesn't change his biology.

Identity politics in general takes away resources and attention from issues that really need them. It's patholigisation of normal difference. There are children who really need help, and instead we have a massive industry being built up around "supporting" children who are simply normal. And damaging those children in the process.

The movement of people who identify as animals shows it up for what it is. Can I identify as a being 67 years old, even though in reality I am in my 30's? Can I identify as a member of the royal family, even though in reality I am not? Why can't I?

 

[joeylittle]

I’m far from being an expert in early development and education. But it strikes me that a lot of the language around tolerance emphasizes difference. I’d think that first, one learns about sameness.

A child, adult, boy, girl, Christian, Muslim, you name it - race, gender, creed, age, etc. - these are all people. People may look different from each other, and they may believe different things. But people are people.

Categorization is something that matters when fighting for equality. But I don’t think it follows, that one must first teach categorization in order to teach empathy and tolerance.

Identity (in America, anyway) has been a complicated conversation for a long time. Being able to accept and respect differences while also retaining a grasp on sameness is not an easy thing.

I’ve no suggestion for how one goes about it - but it seems to me that there is a danger in over-emphasizing differences among humans, and under-emphasizing sameness. After all - gender neutral restrooms are just embracing the notion that everybody poops.

On one hand, that’s an oversimplification. But, from the perspective of teaching a generation to unemcumber gender - to try and level it off, to create true equal access - gender neutral bathrooms are super-useful for kids in early schooling.

I think one can enable tolerance without imposing gender identity one way or the other.

 

[Neverthesame]

Identity politics in general takes away resources and attention from issues that really need them.

Absolutely. 30+ students to 1 teacher is the standard class size in an elementary(primary) school in an Alberta board of education public or separate Catholic school.
Teachers are too grossly underpaid, overworked and stressed to be able to provide some sort of secondary parenting. I don't doubt for a second that the vast majority of teachers love their careers and want to be able to give each child under their watch, the best education they can give them to best suit their individual needs.

30+ students and 1 teacher realistically means that there is just no way for a teacher to provide each student with extra guidance on their weaker subjects, let alone be some sort of ancillary parent.
Tolerance and acceptance for all by all, is a far more realistic and achievable goal for an overworked teacher in a classroom packed full of children from a diverse spectrum of ethnicity, culture and spiritual beliefs.

Being aware of and watchful for the signs of child abuse should be the priority of a teacher when looking at their students behaviour. Not whether or not little Johnny is really little Jane.

 

[shimmerz]

What is the program here? What is being presented in this school/district?

Resources Archive - Gender Creative Kids
http://gendercreativekids.ca/wp-con...-Transgender-and-Transsexual-Students-web.pdf

 

[scout86]

That's reverse logic, hon.

First, in case anyone's interested, I really hate being called "hon". People can call me what they want, their choice, but that one always rankles unless it's coming from a waitress in a southern cafe. It strikes me as condescending, at best. I usually let it go, because I figure the odds are 50/50 between "I'm right about that" or "I'm being too sensitive".

I actually didn't think I was talking about how PARENTS should be treated at all. I thought I was talking about how KIDS should be treated.

I've already said, several times, that I'm totally opposed to "putting kids in boxes". I don't like the idea, whether it's done by schools OR parents. And it can be done by either or both. To me, the ideal would be that teachers are allowed and encouraged to make use of those teachable moments that come up. Johnny says to Billy "You throw like a girl!" To me, that's a chance to sit down with at LEAST Johnny, and MAYBE the whole class and pick that "insult" apart a little. What does it mean to him? What does he think it means to Billy? What does he think it means to be a girl? And you listen to the answers and let those guide the conversation. Because a lot of times, it seems like it turns out kids don't mean what we think they mean or even what THEY think they mean. But it's a chance to teach them that words matter and things mean something.

Now, personally, I'm totally sure that there are "good enough" parents out there who don't want their kids to learn to treat everyone with respect. They'd be totally fine with their kids growing up to share their parental prejudices. They've got all the time they want at home to indoctrinate that kind of thing, I doubt a teacher will undo it in a classroom. But, maybe, some day down the road, a light will come on for that kid and he or she will realize that maybe it IS ok to accept people as individuals and to realize that we have more in common than we have differences, and the respect for others is a good thing. Their parents might be PO'd, but I frankly don't care.

I probably shouldn't have used the term "good enough parent". I'm not sure what the official definition is. To me, it's a parent that manages to raise a kid to 18 without causing them any physical harm. My parents, for example, were good enough. And, my classmates who liked to bully and harass people? Their parents, as far as I know were "good enough" too, because they got their kids to an age when they could get out the door. Maybe the official definition is more complicated.

@shimmerz , I wanted to look that up, so I knew what we were talking about, but there was WAY too much there to sort through at the moment. I decided that what we seem to have ended up talking about was what schools should and shouldn't teach, so I went with that.

While I think of it, so I can annoy the teachers too, I really think schools should teach kids how to think for themselves and really problem solve. Most of the time, IRL, there ISN'T one "right" answer. Sometimes, it's cool to stand up against authority, with a well reasoned argument. You really SHOULDN'T just believe everything you're told, no matter who's doing the telling. Life is complicated. The sooner they figure that out, the better off they are.

One last disclaimer. I'm not an educator and I'm not a parent. I came out of childhood very well aware that there are a lot of things I'm not equipped for and parenthood is one of them. I would not have been "good enough" as far as I'm concerned. But, I was a kid, so, if I have any standing in the discussion at all, I guess it would be as a former kid.

 

[shimmerz]

@shimmerz , I wanted to look that up, so I knew what we were talking about, but there was WAY too much there to sort through at the moment. I decided that what we seem to have ended up talking about was what schools should and shouldn't teach, so I went with that.

Yes. That is normally the case here. Throw out all sorts of documentation so people who don't have time (which is all of us generally) can't be bothered to read it. Not a stab at you at all Scout.... just thinking that may have come across badly. It is a direct hit at those who throw useless information at us over very important matters.

BTW, I have 2 grandchildren in school. I also was lucky enough to have sat beside an 'all about transgendered' person (who I was forced to call they because they didn't like she or he) who was all excited that their facility was getting a transgendered bathroom. I stopped what I was doing, looked at her, and said 'did you know that I can't find housing and that I have been homeless for 10 years? I am not a big one on worrying about bathrooms in government buildings.'

Believe it or not, she stopped, looked at me and said 'I get it'. Yes, I said. Priorities are important to me.

Now if only these big wig decision makers at the board could stop long enough to figure out how to keep our kids safe in their schools. THAT would be worthwhile, I think. This stuff to me, is just a big distraction.

 

[Scarlet13]

Resources Archive - Gender Cre...

So, I read the majority of this document. Thank you, I learned more about this issue!
This document provides education on trans gender issues and clearly designates schools and teacher's roles.
There are also sections that directly address parents in a manner that felt supportive to me.

I especially like that this doc clarifies false information such as that a trans gender youth is not necc gay or that a trans gender youth is not being that way as a result of abuse (that notion is ridiculous!)
Or that they lacked male or female role models.
This doc does talk about schools and teachers not 'gender policing students' and allowing an open exploration of roles.
I agree with this, and we need this education, but where is the support for all of the other marginalised students?
People of color?
What about students with disabilities?
What about sexual harassment?
What about students with PTSD or other mental conditions?
I was bullied by both teachers and children because I was "sensitive" because I dressed weird, when in reality I was being abused and neglected so this set me up for more abuse at school.
Teachers still shame students, all students. They make student's choices about who the student is as opposed to realizing that behavior is complex.
Schools are complex. They are a collection of society's problems reflected in one small space.
We could have documents like this for every facet of the human condition. But that would be overwhelming. That is why we can start with building empathy, strong communities, and letting children have age appropriate conversations.
We need to train teachers to not use shaming, power based tactics and to use validation and relationship building tactics.
We need to start there.

 

[scout86]

Throw out all sorts of documentation so people who don't have time

It wasn't actually about having time. It was about there being a totally overwhelming volume of information, that looked like it applied to a lot of different geographic locations. I wasn't sure how much of it was the same, and wasn't sure what applied to where the OP lives. (Because I don't know exactly where the OP lives.)

For the record, I think the whole bathroom thing is absurd. Personally, I think people should use what ever bathroom they want. I don't picture predators disguising themselves as members of the opposite sex to prowl bathrooms looking for victims. (Not to mention that there are plenty of situations where victim and perp are of the same gender.)

As far as I know, I don't know any trans-gender people IRL. But I'm acquainted with some here. My own, personal, thought is they can be who and what ever they want to be, I wish them well. They are no threat to me by being who they are, and I don't see them as a threat to anyone else either.

The conspiracy theory part of my brain suspects that some of this, like :"The Great Bathroom Debate" is some kind of a smoke screen to prevent the discussion of real stuff.

 

[Justmehere]

I glanced through the volumes of info at the site about this program. It was pretty much what I expected. Sexual orientation / gender minorities get all this focus... and yet not any ther minority group? That seems weird to me. The whole thing could easily include all minority groups and a better focus on how to work together as humans...

Using math lessons and etc to promote trans inclusion and etc... It’s too much. It singles out one difference way too much again and again. That’s why it gets some legit pushback (and plenty of not legit pushback) and feels very agenda-y.