Will this be harassing my abuser?

[Movingforward10]

I’m not sure how to, do you know how besides radical acceptance?

Not sure I do as working on it myself.

I think for me a lot of it has to do with power and control and knowing that the abusers don't have that over me now and I get to decide how my life is, how I let the past impact me now. So radical acceptance, and also positive affirmations, and counter messages and all sorts of things.
Personally, I think acceptance is one thing but ensuring autonomy and working everything through is a combination of things. Like picking the fleas of them off me, so that I have nothing of the impact of them on me anymore other than what I decide I want. Not sure that makes sense?

 

[ColoursToday]

Definitely speak with a lawyer first, but I'd like to offer my opinion around what you seem to be seeking.

Recording anyone without consent is always going to be a question of ethics, but as noted here there could be negative legal consequences for you if you live in a region where this activity is protected by law. Ethically you should never record anyone without their consent, as that conduct reflects badly on your character and integrity. It would be better to inform the person you intend to record in advance, and tell them why you are doing it (e.g., personal safety, to establish boundaries for safe communication, etc.). If they refuse, you have to accept that the conversation won't happen in a manner that you are comfortable with.

Which brings me to my next point.

People who are abusive generally do not view themselves this way because their ego won't allow it. Unless they are certifiably psychopathic/sociopathic/antisocial, they want to view themselves and be viewed by others as "good people". People do bad things, but many people lack the strength of character to reflect on their own bad behaviour enough to see it truthfully and honestly, then take responsibility and be accountable for their actions. Abusers especially seem to lack these skills, as more often than not you will see them "flip the script" back on you by claiming that YOU were abusive towards them and this justifies whatever they've done to you.

When someone we care about does this to us, it can be extremely disorienting. Their truth doesn't match your truth, and it makes you question your sanity. When their enablers buy their false narratives it amplifies the damage to your self-identity. THIS is what compels you to want to "reach out and get them to see the truth", because your brain NEEDS to resolve the cognitive dissonance this incongruence creates.

Repeatedly asking a person "why" could be considered harassment in some cases, but ultimately it is pointless because unless they have the strength of character to self-reflect and see their actions realistically, you will NEVER get them to "see the light" of your truth. Instead, you need to accept that a person has created a distorted reality and created false narrative. Then you need to OWN YOUR OWN TRUTH, and truly realize and accept that their version of facts and events doesn't matter. The people who buy into their version of facts and events don't matter. Once you have sorted out who these people are, you need to CUT THEM ALL OUT OF YOUR LIFE. Once you get some distance from the lies and distortions, your truth will become clearer, and in your truth healing will begin.

Ultimately, you'll get no healing out of trying to "convince" your abuser of your truth. They need to come to that realistic conclusion on their own, but most of them never will.

 

[Weemie]

as noted here there could be negative legal consequences for you if you live in a region where this activity is protected by law. Ethically you should never record anyone without their consent, as that conduct reflects badly on your character and integrity.

I would have to challenge this significantly. Are you saying that a child who records their parents abusing them against the parent's will lacks integrity? Can you substantiate this claim in any meaningful way beyond your own personal values? I believe this statement is an extreme generalization and quite black-and-white, and does not at all reflect the reality of anyone's "character" when responding to abuse in a situation where they are otherwise powerless and may even be at risk of death.

 

[ColoursToday]

I would have to challenge this significantly. Are you saying that a child who records their parents abusing them against the parent's will lacks integrity? Can you substantiate this claim in any meaningful way beyond your own personal values? I believe this statement is an extreme generalization and quite black-and-white, and does not at all reflect the reality of anyone's "character" when responding to abuse in a situation where they are otherwise powerless and may even be at risk of death.

I should clarify this as situational, and it very much could be interpreted that way in this case. If a person sets up an with another person with the intention of recording that person without their knowledge or consent, it could be viewed as entrapment and would certainly put their integrity into question. I have seen a case where a clearly troubled teenager would start recording her parents then use all sorts of triggering language, actions, and behaviour, and subsequently upload those videos to YouTube. In that case it backfired on the young person because it was clearly a case of entrapment by a disturbed teenager.

The problem lies with authenticity in video/audio, as often times these things can be staged, or the person who has the control (the person recording) is the only one with agency around what is happening. People also question what they see especially if it contradicts other information available to them.

This is likely why we have a lack of consistency around the application of law when it comes to consent to being recording. There are many ethical questions to consider.

 

[caroline_13]

If I call my abuser and record her asking why she did what she would that be harassment? And can she sue or arrest me for harassment? Or get a protection order? I messaged her in the last month asking if we can meet up and she was responding back to me asking why I want to meet. If she responds back to me is that harassment?

It is illegal in some jurisdictions to record someone without their consent.

 

[Sideways]

I’m not sure how to, do you know how besides radical acceptance?

Yeah. There’s going to be a perpetual sense of frustration and helplessness while recovery hinges on things that are way out of your control. Which includes “justice”.

What happened to you, happened. It can’t be undone. There will never be a ‘righting’ of that external to you.

On the up side, you can heal irrespective of who your abuser is and what they’re doing. You can go right ahead and build a life for yourself that rocks, that you’re proud to live, where your abuser no longer matters to you at all.

 

[Weemie]

it could be viewed as entrapment

Entrapment is a concept that can only be applied when one of the parties in question is a member of law enforcement - and it requires the persuasion of an individual to commit a crime they otherwise would not have committed. Simply recording someone and editing them to look bad would not have anything to do with entrapment, and on an everyday basis, absent law enforcement officials being involved, entrapment doesn't apply.

The problem lies with authenticity in video/audio, as often times these things can be staged

But that isn't what you said. You said that anyone who records someone without their consent has a moral deficit of character. Obviously if someone behaves nefariously via the medium of recording someone else, that represents a deficit. Absolutely, I agree. But an abuse victim recording legitimate abuse should not fall under that category. And it is completely fine if you actually meant specifically nefarious recording.

I'm not trying to start a fight or semantically nitpick, it's just that what you stated above very much came across like your attempt to chide the OP for their urge to engage in this behavior, and implying that they would possess a weak character if they did that. And I would say absolutely not, the OP's request would also not fall under a nefarious purpose as the OP intends to record a confession of actual abuse.

If the OP lives in a one-party consent state (and that is a huge, significant IF as @Friday pointed out - so please do get a lawyer's opinion, specifically a lawyer who is local to your area and knows your area's laws), there is actually a ton of legal precedent for law enforcement to use recordings of this nature to obtain convictions in domestic abuse cases.

 

[ColoursToday]

Entrapment is a concept that can only be applied when one of the parties in question is a member of law enforcement - and it requires the persuasion of an individual to commit a crime they otherwise would not have committed. Simply recording someone and editing them to look bad would not have anything to do with entrapment, and on an everyday basis, absent law enforcement officials being involved, entrapment doesn't apply.



But that isn't what you said. You said that anyone who records someone without their consent has a moral deficit of character. Obviously if someone behaves nefariously via the medium of recording someone else, that represents a deficit. Absolutely, I agree. But an abuse victim recording legitimate abuse should not fall under that category. And it is completely fine if you actually meant specifically nefarious recording.

I'm not trying to start a fight or semantically nitpick, it's just that what you stated above very much came across like your attempt to chide the OP for their urge to engage in this behavior, and implying that they would possess a weak character if they did that. And I would say absolutely not, the OP's request would also not fall under a nefarious purpose as the OP intends to record a confession of actual abuse.

If the OP lives in a one-party consent state (and that is a huge, significant IF as @Friday pointed out - so please do get a lawyer's opinion, specifically a lawyer who is local to your area and knows your area's laws), there is actually a ton of legal precedent for law enforcement to use recordings of this nature to obtain convictions in domestic abuse cases.

If you think entrapment is a concept that can only be applied by members of law enforcement, I am sorry but you may be in for a very rude awakening. Entrapment can be inflicted by any human motivated to manipulate a situation towards their own perceived benefit, period. Full stop.

For example, this scenario was conducted by my ex-husband, who recorded me without my consent after deliberately triggering me around my trauma subsequent to his infidelity and abandonment of our family, and then tried to submit this video material as "evidence" in our child custody case. His efforts backfired on him, because it called his integrity into question. He failed to supply complete unedited versions of these recordings which only portrayed my anguished behaviour, and omitted his own leading questions, accusations, cruelty, and behaviour. My "version" of what happened during that event was vastly different than his, even if I didn't have video evidence. Ultimately the judge opted to not include the material in our proceedings, but this event influenced the Guardian Ad Litem substantially in my favour.

I was ultimately awarded full custody.

I posted my opinion as a person who has been targeted by this form of manipulative violence. During this process you can be assured that I spoke with members of law enforcement and legal counsel around what my rights were, and how foul the behaviour reflected on my ex-husband.

I'm not sure what your agenda here is, but the point I am trying to make is taking a step like this could have very severe consequences when you don't think things through.

 

[Weemie]

Entrapment can be inflicted by any human motivated to manipulate a situation towards their own perceived benefit, period. Full stop.

This is simply not true. I've linked a source above explaining why it is not. What you have described is a form of abusive behavior, yes. But it is not entrapment, which is a legal concept relative to a completely distinct set of behaviors (the persuasion by law enforcement into committing a criminal offense, as mentioned previously).

I'm not sure what your agenda here is,

I have also explicitly stated the purpose of my inquiry.

what you stated above very much came across like your attempt to chide the OP for their urge to engage in this behavior, and implying that they would possess a weak character if they did that. And I would say absolutely not, the OP's request would also not fall under a nefarious purpose as the OP intends to record a confession of actual abuse.

You have failed to answer my questions, and instead provided a personal anecdote that was not relevant to the discussion. While your experiences are certainly regrettable, they are not applicable to this circumstance. It is not appropriate to cast wide aspersions on other people's moral fortitude and character based off something entirely separate to the situation.

You being mistreated and manipulated by someone has no bearing on the OP's desire to record a confession from their abuser, and implying that they lack integrity is logically incongruent. I have stated all that needs to be said, and I will be exiting this conversation now.

 

[Sideways]

Mod Note:
@Weemie & @ColoursToday - the OP’s conversation has evolved beyond the initial question, so your conversation is turning into a thread highjack, so unless the OP wants to re-enter a discussion about entrapment, we’ll draw a line under it there.

 

[ColoursToday]

@Sideways my apologies, but thanks for pointing this out, as this wasn't my intent. I wanted to provide advice around using caution to @LeiaFlower, who asked if "calling [their] abuser and recording her asking why she did what she did would be considered harassment".

Simply asking someone a question isn't harassment. The definition of harassment includes unwanted intrusions into someone else's that makes them feel persecuted, unsafe, or threatened in any way. The recording element could cross into the domain of harassment when you factor in the intent of making the recording:

• what purpose does making the recording serve, and
• how will this recorded material be used in the future?

If the recording is made to use against a person in a way that causes them to feel persecuted, unsafe, or threatened, then the criteria for harassment could be met whether consent was given or not. When recordings are made without someone's consent, the intent of creating recordings could be considered benign or malicious depending on how the material is used. This is an important distinction to consider.

We can ask an abuser for restorative justice, but we can't control that outcome. The hard part is learning how to accept that some people will do really horrible things to us and never give us restorative justice. Learning how to live in peace with this knowledge is something we can control, and there is a lot of healing in that.

Best wishes on your healing journey.

 

[lazylinks]

Thank you for the suggestions I didn’t end up calling her. I think it was just an exile (IFS Therapy language for an inner child part) wanting justice. My whole case didn’t move forward because the abuser passed the lie detector test. Which in no way should even be used anymore

thats so awful, im sorry. if i remember correctly the accuracy rates of lie detectors is around 60-70%. definitely shouldn't be used anymore at all. what nonsense
i hope you get the justice and healing you deserve, even if not through this route. stay safe out there.