News Another Shooting In The Us

[Shellbell]

Shell, it is one thing to be upset by your specifics, it is another to use it as the rule versus the exception, is my point, within an discussion about weapons and citing it as a point as though all violent offenders get a gun license in the UK after the fact. You know that isn't true, yet that is the perception you purported in your statement, and had responses to exactly that sentiment.

The above comes across as a pity party to me... as that is the equivalent of me blaming the military for all of my trauma and then jumping into any military conversation claiming military personnel are all evil, and the structure of militaries are evil. You get the idea... it would be a lie from me and it would be nonsense. Bad things happened to us, however; a minority is not a majority because we feel wrongly done or invalidated. That is an agenda... and I don't think its honest IMHO.

Anthony, it wasn't an 'accident' that he got his gun licence back, and you using such statements is upsetting. So if I'm having a 'pity party', then it's your inappropriate choice of words that caused it. So, yes, I have sat and cried about this for the last half an hour because of your insensitive wording, which is very triggering. I didn't at any point state that my situation was the norm. But it did happen and if it happened to me then it could have happened to others. My point in stating what happened was to show that all countries need to tighten their gun control legislation and I did state that America needed to do do more. So please do not assume my agenda as you are wrong.

 

[anthony]

And also in the UK, they give gun licences back to violent criminals who have served prison time for violent and abuse related offences, despite vigorous opposition from the police, who rightly claim they are a danger to society.

Shell, there is zero confusion in your above wording... "they give gun licenses back to violent criminals who have served prison time..." Maybe it is my wording that is incorrect to get my message across to you. I got your message... you have a personal involvement in the specifics of 'one' person being given a gun license who was the person who offended against you, and then you have used that to portray as though the UK has sloppy gun laws. That is so far from the facts it just isn't even funny... and then Abstract responded from another country believing:

Shellbell, in the UK? I am surprised. Sorry to hear that. I somehow assumed it was the states.

Then you outlined more specifics... adding your vested interest in this 'one' case, yet not really clarifying your prior intent as incorrect.

Yes it was in the UK. I found out by it being in an online local newspaper, where it even stated his criminal convictions for kidnapping and serious assult and an 'accident' causing the death of a former girlfriend. Fortunately, I had already left having had threats to me and my son.

Obviously because you are directly affected, you are emotional about this type of discussion because your offender was given a weapons license after abusing you. Does that suck? Yes... but it doesn't change the overall point, which is that the UK has exceptional gun control laws, and especially in comparison to the US. You shouldn't even use both the countries in the same sentence when comparing gun laws, as they are complete opposites.

That is one thing most Commonwealth country laws have over US and other countries, in that our criminal systems are small and insignificant compared to other countries, and that is because jail breeds criminals... and jail and ongoing punishment for the rest of your life breeds further crime. The US system is a world joke about this very thing, and other countries do the exact opposite, which works.

Shell... your experience has nothing to do with the specifics of the overall discussion in what is being said, and that is that an isolated incident that is related to yourself should not be portrayed as normal in the UK, which is incorrect. That is what has happened in this thread... and it is completely false and misleading.

This isn't discounting your trauma Shell... but to be perfectly honest, I believe my points above are valid and should not be portrayed by you as though the UK has a gun problem that even comes close to the US issues of gun control. The US beats us all hands down when it comes to gun problems, and our countries aren't even on the same plain of existence in this discussion. Isolated events are not the norm.

Trying to remember about the US mass shooting... I think it is Obama's 14th or 15th mass shooting since being President, yet the US media and world media attempt to cite it as the 2nd or such into his second term. Yet a week later there is another in Pennsylvania... but a shootout versus mass shooting, yet still enough people died at one event to make world news.

If you cannot see the point above about comparison and portraying a single event in a country context, then I honestly don't know what will. You have to let go of this attachment you have to your event versus what is happening in America versus what happens in the UK, Australia, France, Ireland, etc, in relation to guns. The problems are just nothing alike for us... regardless of our individual traumas.

 

[Queen Boudica]

I know it is not the same, but there are similarities. The end of the violence in Ireland, the final tipping point was the Eniskillen bombing that happened 25 years ago again very close to Christmas. Families destroyed by another act of pointless violence.

That bombing serioulsy damaged the IRA's reputation. People power turned against them. It reduced their power, they lost elections. It eventually lead to the negotiations that finally saw the end of the war in Northern Ireland. This is what should be happening with the NRA. People power, the majority of the USA do not want more guns they want tighter gun controls.

Some people thought that the end to violence in Northern Ireland would never be possible, just like some on here argue it will never happen that guns control laws can be enforced in the States. What if the people had said that in Northern Ireland? Would they still be at war and ordinary people living in fear of being bombed or shot?

The momentum started and something got done and now there is peace. It seems to me what the NRA are proposing is more war and fear and violence. Surely there has to be a compromise?

Sorry if this is simplistic or not the same, but it is hope that something can be done, instead of constant arguing for more war and violence. That is what the families whose children died want. That is what the people of Eniskillen wanted and got.

 

[Hashi]

Some people thought that the end to violence in Northern Ireland would never be possible, just like some on here argue it will never happen that guns control laws can be enforced in the States. .

I think that's an interesting point. As you've pointed out, the situation is different. However, the way the situation changed when there seemed to be no solution seems very relevant. Many of us felt that the situation in NI was hopeless and no-one would ever be willing to disarm when they already had the weapons. The force of public feeling is what turned things around, combined with political commitment.

It's hard to conceive how strict gun legislation could be introduced and enforced in the US at this point. It's also hard to conceive what on earth is going to happen if it isn't, and instead the ownership and use of weapons keeps escalating.

Have there ever been detailed proposals of how to introduce and implement more gun control in the US? Are such proposals what people are basing their views on when they say it's not realistic?

 

[ms spock]

So sorry that happened to you (((((Ms Spock))))). Glad that, despite all of terrible violence, the consequences of which can cripple the child who grew up in that terror forever, you are pulling yourself out of it and are strong and brave and standing up for the truth.

Oh Lizio,

It really doesn't feel like it some days. Today it does a bit. But the last couple of months have been SI, struggle, depression, PTSD hyperviligance and thinking, distoried PTSD thinking etc etc. I realise once again, how mentally ill that I am and it is sobering.

Thank you for your kind words. I guess I am still here and so improvement is possible or if not improvement, then acceptance, living with and some enjoyment and stillness.

 

[Queen Boudica]

But the last couple of months have been SI, struggle, depression, PTSD hyperviligance and thinking, distoried PTSD thinking etc etc. I realise once again, how mentally ill that I am and it is sobering.

Same thing here Ms Spock. Last few months (actually most of the year) have been a nightmare and I have seen myself spiralling down. I am suddenly better after a load of stress has been removed. It has made me realise how much I have been damaged and that I need to continue to get help and to work on this. Even though I can't see real future at the moment, I am determined that next year I will cut through this fog of chaos that is in my mind.

I have seen you improve over the year Ms Spock. Really I have. We just have to ride the waves.

 

[Abstract]

Dearest Shellbell,

and you using such statements is upsetting.

I think part of the problem is that I am guessing an action like this (them giving him a gun and after giving him such a short sentence for such a serious crime) must feel like a deep invalidation of your experience/pain/destruction of your and your families life, on top of all the logical annoyance one might have for something like this. And in my experience invalidation, especially when connected to trauma, is extremely injuring and has left me extremely vulnerable to anything that can be seen as invalidating no matter how unintentional or intentional. Feelings like that go way beyond our logical disagreement with issues or words said or actions done.

I truly believe that if we asked any single person on this thread how they felt about something like this happening to you that all would feel infuriated and have compassion for you and your feelings about it happening. I hope you are taking care.

 

[Shellbell]

Thank you Abstract and Lizio for your posts. I appreciate you taking the time to let me know you understand. Having compassion above needing to be right is such a wonderful quality. It reminds me there are people with compassion and true understanding of trauma and it's psychological consequences and a real desire to help people.

The part that bothers me just as much as all the trauma involved about my negative experience of the UK legal system and gun control legislation - is the decision for him to have his gun licence back was made by a County Court judge in a County Court in 2007, making it a legal precedence from that point onwards for others to successfully appeal for guns ownership - who should not have them.

Setting these precedences is what undermines a good system set up to protect society, which is (as I stated) currently better than America. America in my opinion, is in a terrible mess and needs urgent action on gun control or more tragedies will keep on happening.

 

[anni]

We're obviously having a dreadful time of it here in America, and yes, it's the gun lobbies and politicians who are owned by them, bottom line. The thing is, it's not as easy as it sounds, boom boom boom- there are tentacles attached to everything and ours are so deep they're going to take time. Our system is set-up so that bills have idiotic items attached to random 'other' items when passed in House and Senate- confusing but deliberate. It takes time and careful purusal to pass new ones, strip them of their baggage, impliment the things- tell the shrill fringe voices to shush, already, and get it DONE. Misplaced anger towards America isn't going to bring our babies back, all it does is give our Right-fringe something to point at, and wave the flag at, and say ' Oh look, foreigners/Socialists/Communists infringing on our freedoms. ' Seriously- that's all it does plus believe me, we KNOW we're walking around in the middle of a lot of shooting. The Pennsylvania problem is the cities, which for some reason gets REALLY discounted, like it's only the suburbs where violence is so, so shocking. I live in Pennsylvania- we host Philadelphia and Harrisburg, 2 of the highest murder rates per capita in the US, depending on year.

I also genuinely love my country. I'm not saying that defensively, but as an American. When something like this happens, there's a knee-jerk, global finger-pointing, gosh, look at them, they're at it again, those awful Yanks. Well, as far back as human slavery, a dozen other massive problems and inequities, globally and nationally, when the pendulum has swung too far then sheer reason, moral force itself in my opinion brings it back to center. For instance, why are we the word policemen? Because we can be, have the force and resources to bring order and peace to areas threatened by chaos and terror, bottom line. ( Also a little item called the Monroe Doctrine, basically when another country says 'Help' we say ' Coming' ) We can and WILL do it for our own country, no fear. This has indeed been the tipping point, but looking backwards gets us exactly nowhere. " Moral force emanates from righteous action ". MLK- over something quite different but it was an American pendulum swing required to correct another hideous problem, citizens provided the righteous actions. We tend to do that. I'm NOT saying other countries do not- the problem with these kinds of dicsussions is someone out there will take something far to personally, when the subject really is just a kind of blanket statement. Hence a disclaimer.

Side note on the Northern Ireland thing-I lived in the UK when it was unwise to approach unattended packages. Signs everywhere telling you not to. I remember being in Harrods in London- announcement by the uber polite voice over the loudspeaker, there'd been a threat, please would everyone proceed to the exits immediately. 1977/78 this was routine. ( Have to say, hee- all the Brits calmy put their items down, kinda strolled out of the store, mildly annoyed if anything.You could spot the Yanks- we were like 'WAAAAAAAA, ', trampling livestock booking it outa there, hysterical. )

 

[Queen Boudica]

Misplaced anger towards America isn't going to bring our babies back, all it does is give our Right-fringe something to point at, and wave the flag at, and say ' Oh look, foreigners/Socialists/Communists infringing on our freedoms. ' Seriously- that's all it does plus believe me, we KNOW we're walking around in the middle of a lot of shooting. )

I'm not sure anyone here has anger towards America for this. I certainly am not angry at Americans. I am confused, bewildered, horrified and extremely saddened that children are dying and it keeps happening over and over and this does not happen in countries with tight gun laws. Anger does not come into it.

How on earth are we infringing on your freedoms by having the freedom to voice our own opinions? America certainly voices its opinions about other countries. Why can't other countries voice their opinion about America?

A lot of people are genuinely shocked that this has happened. You surely cannot expect us to remain silent about this? Just like America does and should not remain silent when it sees attrocities in other countries. And I use the word attrocity because kindergarten children being killed is an attrocity.

 

[Hashi]

The thing is, it's not as easy as it sounds, boom boom boom- there are tentacles attached to everything and ours are so deep they're going to take time.... Misplaced anger towards America isn't going to bring our babies back, all it does is give our Right-fringe something to point at, and wave the flag at, and say ' Oh look, foreigners/Socialists/Communists infringing on our freedoms.

I haven't checked all the posts in this thread before saying this, but I've read a lot of them and haven't got the impression that anger towards America is being expressed. Also, in news reportage that I've seen generally, no-one has been saying "those awful Yanks" - only "those awful gun laws". I also don't think anyone has suggested it sounds easy - far from it. Maybe those things are here/in the media and I haven't seen them, but I can't help feeling that to take that from what's being said could actually be just the kind of issue you're describing - a discussion about how to change the situation is not necessarily taken for what it is but can be taken for criticism and outside interference.

Anger - if it is anger, in many cases I'd describe it more as deep concern - over current gun laws is not the same as anger towards the whole country. Frustration at entrenched responses to this tragedy is not the same as saying the situation in the States could be easily changed.

why are we the word policemen? Because we can be, have the force and resources to bring order and peace to areas threatened by chaos and terror, bottom line. ( Also a little item called the Monroe Doctrine, basically when another country says 'Help' we say ' Coming' ) We can and WILL do it for our own country, no fear.

The thing is, there's a lot of fear because the US hasn't done it yet and it doesn't look like it's on the horizon. There's fear about how far the pendulum can swing in the US before moral force brings it back to centre. Of course no-one thinks the children who have died can be brought back by this debate. However, people hope that action can be taken sooner rather than later, to prevent the deaths of even more children.

You point out that the US is in a position to bring order and peace to areas threatened by chaos and terror. To be honest, I think that's problematic in terms of what has happened in many cases, but for a moment would like to look at the purity of that sentiment, which I completely agree with - countries can be in a position to help other countries which need that help. I'd like to suggest that this is exactly what some other countries are trying to do for the US right now. It's what many people in other countries as well as in the US itself are trying to do. If we have a model where strict weapons laws are to a large extent working (not just gun control, but also knife control and things like alerts for the purchase of items that could be used to make home-made bombs) then that's something we want to put into this debate.

I think people are all too aware that the right wing fringe, and many others, would probably act defensively or even offensively to resist changes to weapons control. I certainly am aware of that. But I hope that the rest of country would carry it through, and not dismiss it as too difficult or impossible, or themselves take it far too personally.

Only the US can resolve its own situation, and there's no suggestion that it's easy. I think there is a suggestion that perhaps the US can listen to and be guided by other countries in addressing this, though, and by people in other countries, as well as by those in the US itself. This is for exactly the reason you give for seeing the US as the world's policeman - we see a kind of chaos and terror that we don't have, and feel we're in a position to contribute to the healing of it.

 

[Rumors]

According to the CDC, there are nearly 11,000 deaths from drunk driving each year AND More than 110 MILLION incidents of impaired driving.

According to the CDC in 2011, there have been 11,101 deaths by homicide using a gun in the US. There are 19,766 suicides and 851 accidental discharges. Still drastically below the incidents involving DUI's.

My point is NOT to argue that something shouldn't be done, however my point IS that we are missing the bigger picture. As a society, I think we owe ourselves to solve the cause not the effect.

Shell, I simply cannot imagine giving someone a gun permit with a history of violence. That must have been extraordinarily alarming. I hope it was the exception and not the rule. I don't know how it works in the UK but in the US, it goes through the local law enforcement offices and not a judge. I am very sorry you had that experience.

We have LOTS of problems but don't think for a second that banning an AR 15 is going to stop this madness. It is much deeper than that. As well, don't think a glock can't kill as many people as an AR 15. You would just have to carry more than one.

Just my humble opinion.