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Attachment Issues
- Post starter Pencil
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- #158
My daughter is 7: For seven years I've been having a BATTLE with setting proper boundaries for her. I know where the boundaries should be, and why. But do you think I manage to stick to it, enforce it? No. I feel guilty for having a simple boundary for her. I don't mess with her toys. She messes with my make-up, and I want to FREAK, but I grin and bear it.
oops, off-topic again. But then again, perhaps not.
oops, off-topic again. But then again, perhaps not.
Pencil,
This is your place to decide what is off topic or not! In my mind it really isn't though and all of this is relevant. As these things are the building blocks that potentially get us to a place where attachment is possible or are part of the scenery on the way to attachment land. ;) I guess thats why I always talk about healthy attachment rather than just attachment. If we look at all the different possible unhelpful attachment patterns then we can have an idea of what stumbling blocks are likely to be thrown up.
We all tend to have obstacles or stumbling blocks of choice and for example when it comes to therapy we have to negotiate our way around them long enough for attachment to even become possible. It's impossible to attach to anyone unless we stay in a healthy relationship dynamic long enough for that to take place.
I guess I personally visualise it like an obstacle course. Getting past the obstacles alone does not automatically lead to "attachment" but it is impossible for it to happen without negotiating our way around them. And we all have our preferred obstacles. The tricky part is that what they consist of for all of us is slightly different so it isn't as if a therapist gets a map and composition report to tell them exactly where everything is or what it consists of.
I guess I also think that just focussing on "attaching" for many people (rather than healthy attachment) may well throw up more obstacles in that obstacle course. So for example someone who has certain attachment patterns may expect the other person to be tuned into their every thought and feeling and know them all of the time. And when that doesn't happen feel aggressed. Because they are expecting to be one with the person in a sense. And when that turns out not to be possible then there is an extreme reaction of some type. So that expectation of someone needing to be one with them in every way for the relationship to be OK is setting it up for attachment havoc.
Just in case you misunderstand me I truly am not aiming that in any specific direction! I don't do that indirect stuff. ;) Just using an example that I think is pretty common. I hope I am making some sense here.
On the separate topic of your daughter: I can so see why it would be so hard for you to set boundaries with her! When instinctively you possibly go into feeling you are being abusive or controlling. And I actually think that when those feelings are actually about other past experiences it does not stay constant either and possibly comes and goes in waves. And maybe a part of you wants to be the opposite to your father. If you did it would be totally understandable. I hope it's Ok to put a few of those thoughts out there.
Hope you are OK as I realise this is all big stuff.
This is your place to decide what is off topic or not! In my mind it really isn't though and all of this is relevant. As these things are the building blocks that potentially get us to a place where attachment is possible or are part of the scenery on the way to attachment land. ;) I guess thats why I always talk about healthy attachment rather than just attachment. If we look at all the different possible unhelpful attachment patterns then we can have an idea of what stumbling blocks are likely to be thrown up.
We all tend to have obstacles or stumbling blocks of choice and for example when it comes to therapy we have to negotiate our way around them long enough for attachment to even become possible. It's impossible to attach to anyone unless we stay in a healthy relationship dynamic long enough for that to take place.
I guess I personally visualise it like an obstacle course. Getting past the obstacles alone does not automatically lead to "attachment" but it is impossible for it to happen without negotiating our way around them. And we all have our preferred obstacles. The tricky part is that what they consist of for all of us is slightly different so it isn't as if a therapist gets a map and composition report to tell them exactly where everything is or what it consists of.
I guess I also think that just focussing on "attaching" for many people (rather than healthy attachment) may well throw up more obstacles in that obstacle course. So for example someone who has certain attachment patterns may expect the other person to be tuned into their every thought and feeling and know them all of the time. And when that doesn't happen feel aggressed. Because they are expecting to be one with the person in a sense. And when that turns out not to be possible then there is an extreme reaction of some type. So that expectation of someone needing to be one with them in every way for the relationship to be OK is setting it up for attachment havoc.
Just in case you misunderstand me I truly am not aiming that in any specific direction! I don't do that indirect stuff. ;) Just using an example that I think is pretty common. I hope I am making some sense here.
On the separate topic of your daughter: I can so see why it would be so hard for you to set boundaries with her! When instinctively you possibly go into feeling you are being abusive or controlling. And I actually think that when those feelings are actually about other past experiences it does not stay constant either and possibly comes and goes in waves. And maybe a part of you wants to be the opposite to your father. If you did it would be totally understandable. I hope it's Ok to put a few of those thoughts out there.
Hope you are OK as I realise this is all big stuff.
- Post starter
- #160
I almost wish there wasn't so much bloody fantastic discussion going on on this forum at the moment, because I'm not really able to keep pace with it personally, and that's sad, seems like a wasted opportunity or something...
These great threads always make me think of my therapist actually, and half wish I could print them out and show them to him. He does so love a good philosophical debate about this sort of thing, and when I'm at least half human, i do enjoy such debates with him. I think it's taught me more about assertiveness and self confidence in relationships than anything else in the world... but I digress, again, which is also something he taught me!
Boundaries could be a whole other thread, but then there'd be another one I'd be trying in vain to keep up with!!
It's odd, somehow I feel as though in all but one respect, I am almost unbelievably ambivalent about "boundaries", however you define them, and sometimes wonder why I don't feel so worried/interested in them the way other people seem to. I've come some way to figuring out why...
Part of it is that I just don't relate that well to psychobabble, or buzz words, particularly those which are overused and clubbed around as this one is. It tends to make me just tune out, particularly when I believe that there are no hard and fast rules, nor should there be, which is what I do believe in relation to boundaries. The moment we stray into "every therapist must..." or "no client should ever..." teritory, I just stop listening. Truly, I confess, I do.
A good therapist manages them almost seamlessly, as does a self aware, well-behaved, well-socialised client... which is why my therapist never needs to talk/think about them, and I often do. Which is a key reason why boundaries are so much a talked-about issue in therapy specifically, even though they relate to all relationships. By its very nature, many therapeutic relationships involve people who are learning about life, people, the world and such - I am being intentionally, or at least consciously, glib and superficial here, but I hope you all know what I mean. Hell, part of therapy is often just learning about boundaries themselves, and so it's inevitable that issues surrounding them will come up for real, rather than just conceptual, consideration at times.
But back to why I personally struggle to get on board with the whole issue... I have never managed to internalise the fact that I have or deserve personal boundaries, though I now can accept it rationally, there is no feeling attached to this. Therefore I have never had cause to worry about others violating mine, even when they clearly do. It would be like feeling aggrieved at the loss of the million dollars I didn't win on the lotto - not something that was mine to begin with, so not something I feel any loss of. And hell, given that I am one of the luckiest people on the planet who has never had a therapist even slightly remotely or fractionally violate or attempt to violate a single boundary of mine... it was never an issue therapeutically.
Now, by contrast, I do worry terribly about violating his, and love what you said Pencil about tiptoing fearfully around terrified of fatal abuse should you stub your toe on one. Sometimes i want to perch myself motionless in the middle of our metaphoric space together and not move lest I should stray too close to one...
But that's more about interpersonal insecurity and fear of abandonment than about boundaries per se.
And hey, i've never tried to stalk, threaten or kill him or his family, so I'm not up the pointy end of the problem... yet!!
And then, right in the middle of my ambivalence, I did have a therapist (of sorts) who gallopped headlong over every boundary in the universe - the now notorious L2. Weirdly, that situation, while it affected me deeply, did so only on a conceptual level, in that it damaged and shattered many of my foundational views about trust and betrayal in relationships etc, but not in a personal sense, in that I didn't personally feel any form of relationship with her, and so hence didn't perceive any individual boundary between us for her to have violated. God, I know for a fact I didn't explain that very well...
And also that some of my own lack of self respect and sense of my own rights plays a part in my weird reaction to that situation...
Of course boundaries are about more than just therapy, and here I do struggle a bit. I hate it when others violate mine, especially when it is so-called friends who do so, and yet "hating it" is about as far as it goes. I don't seem able to go to that next step of feeling that I actually have a right for that not to happen. It just feels like abuse itself - something I hate but which is inevitable and something I am powerless to do anything about, other than to hate it.
I think I need to stop writing garbage.
Oh, and Pencil, for what it's worth, which I hope is at least a little, I have never perceived you as anything other than kind and caring, and I mean that. If that were not the case, I doubt I'd have the guts (or rudeness, depending on how you look at it) to tell you so outright, but I would choose discretion over valour and simply say nothing at all. You always make me think, and make me smile, and kind of humble me for your honesty. Honesty is something I value very very deeply, which reminds me of a fatally serious boundary violation I did commit in therapy early on in our relationship... which will have to be another story.
MD
These great threads always make me think of my therapist actually, and half wish I could print them out and show them to him. He does so love a good philosophical debate about this sort of thing, and when I'm at least half human, i do enjoy such debates with him. I think it's taught me more about assertiveness and self confidence in relationships than anything else in the world... but I digress, again, which is also something he taught me!
Boundaries could be a whole other thread, but then there'd be another one I'd be trying in vain to keep up with!!
It's odd, somehow I feel as though in all but one respect, I am almost unbelievably ambivalent about "boundaries", however you define them, and sometimes wonder why I don't feel so worried/interested in them the way other people seem to. I've come some way to figuring out why...
Part of it is that I just don't relate that well to psychobabble, or buzz words, particularly those which are overused and clubbed around as this one is. It tends to make me just tune out, particularly when I believe that there are no hard and fast rules, nor should there be, which is what I do believe in relation to boundaries. The moment we stray into "every therapist must..." or "no client should ever..." teritory, I just stop listening. Truly, I confess, I do.
A good therapist manages them almost seamlessly, as does a self aware, well-behaved, well-socialised client... which is why my therapist never needs to talk/think about them, and I often do. Which is a key reason why boundaries are so much a talked-about issue in therapy specifically, even though they relate to all relationships. By its very nature, many therapeutic relationships involve people who are learning about life, people, the world and such - I am being intentionally, or at least consciously, glib and superficial here, but I hope you all know what I mean. Hell, part of therapy is often just learning about boundaries themselves, and so it's inevitable that issues surrounding them will come up for real, rather than just conceptual, consideration at times.
But back to why I personally struggle to get on board with the whole issue... I have never managed to internalise the fact that I have or deserve personal boundaries, though I now can accept it rationally, there is no feeling attached to this. Therefore I have never had cause to worry about others violating mine, even when they clearly do. It would be like feeling aggrieved at the loss of the million dollars I didn't win on the lotto - not something that was mine to begin with, so not something I feel any loss of. And hell, given that I am one of the luckiest people on the planet who has never had a therapist even slightly remotely or fractionally violate or attempt to violate a single boundary of mine... it was never an issue therapeutically.
Now, by contrast, I do worry terribly about violating his, and love what you said Pencil about tiptoing fearfully around terrified of fatal abuse should you stub your toe on one. Sometimes i want to perch myself motionless in the middle of our metaphoric space together and not move lest I should stray too close to one...
But that's more about interpersonal insecurity and fear of abandonment than about boundaries per se.
And hey, i've never tried to stalk, threaten or kill him or his family, so I'm not up the pointy end of the problem... yet!!
And then, right in the middle of my ambivalence, I did have a therapist (of sorts) who gallopped headlong over every boundary in the universe - the now notorious L2. Weirdly, that situation, while it affected me deeply, did so only on a conceptual level, in that it damaged and shattered many of my foundational views about trust and betrayal in relationships etc, but not in a personal sense, in that I didn't personally feel any form of relationship with her, and so hence didn't perceive any individual boundary between us for her to have violated. God, I know for a fact I didn't explain that very well...
And also that some of my own lack of self respect and sense of my own rights plays a part in my weird reaction to that situation...
Of course boundaries are about more than just therapy, and here I do struggle a bit. I hate it when others violate mine, especially when it is so-called friends who do so, and yet "hating it" is about as far as it goes. I don't seem able to go to that next step of feeling that I actually have a right for that not to happen. It just feels like abuse itself - something I hate but which is inevitable and something I am powerless to do anything about, other than to hate it.
I think I need to stop writing garbage.
Oh, and Pencil, for what it's worth, which I hope is at least a little, I have never perceived you as anything other than kind and caring, and I mean that. If that were not the case, I doubt I'd have the guts (or rudeness, depending on how you look at it) to tell you so outright, but I would choose discretion over valour and simply say nothing at all. You always make me think, and make me smile, and kind of humble me for your honesty. Honesty is something I value very very deeply, which reminds me of a fatally serious boundary violation I did commit in therapy early on in our relationship... which will have to be another story.
MD
- Post starter
- #163
worth a lot
I can also not not not assert boundaries. If others violate my boundaries, I get so embarrassed I look away, and my embarrassment then makes me angry.
But before I comment on individual bits: Glad you're back MD! :happy:
zaniara
Diamond Member
:D
I can't keep up with you, since my left brain is not connected at all right now.. (It's a muddle of feelings and memories and a bloody mess really; and today I think there is some kind of virus in my body too, so now it's a complete mess!) But I will come back and read some more when the left side has checked in again!
Just one thing though.. I read once(and it really helped me) that boundaries don't have to be like a brick wall or something, but can be flexible and warm, even though they really do exist and are very important; and even though they can't be stretched all the way or much at all at times. I think boundaries are very much a part of this attachment issue-thing.. I have difficulties with boundaries. I do respect them, but I put boundaries myself without checking on what boundaries the person I'm trying to relate to want or need. I just try to figure out what boundaries there are and then do NOTHING to violate them. Just so that I won't be told I've misbehaved and thus be corrected. Since being corrected makes me feel like shit. (And very scared, angry, confused, miserable, and afraid of being rejected.) I somehow take responsibility for it all, just so that I will not have to feel like that..
Oh.. This was a confusing reply, I guess.. I will go and try to take a nap now instead. But really a great thread! (repeating my self)
zaniara
Diamond Member
Amen.
zaniara
Diamond Member
Yeah! That was fascinating! Somehow I always was confused about what the boundaries were, when I was a child. Since my father was such a moody person, and I never really knew what might trigger him to get violent or what made him laugh(since he found it very amusing at times to see me make a fool of my self or fall and hurt my self, or such). Sometimes the same thing that made him laugh at one occasion, made him angry and violent the next. So there was a lot confusion about the boundaries really, and he violated them all whenever he felt like it. Insight: maybe that's why I try to set and keep my self inside very narrow limits/boundaries around other people, just so that I will avoid crossing one.. Hm.. (Not a really fully developed insight there, but I will do some pondering about this.. Thank you for that story! :)
I guess you said it all here:
I can relate some to this too. But I mostly get all 'foggy' and numbed out when someone cross my boundaries, and then I just want to isolate. Hm.. Some heavy pondering coming up- after I've taken that nap.. :)
zaniara
Diamond Member
*RELATING SO MUCH TO THIS* OH.... That's all about fear. About fear of the unknown for me, really. Oh.. (Kicking my self in the behind to stop reading and go and TAKE A NAP instead)
Zaniara, you made me ponder something, which also fitted with Pencil's story about the children playing nearer the building when the fence was gone (sorry, I can never be bothered fiddling round with the quoting thingy...)
When I was a child, one of the scariest unpredictabilities of life was that there were actually very few concrete rules, and hence behavioural boundaries, in our household. Perhaps counterintuitively, my parents did not set rules for us, we had few set chores or responsibilities and there was no agreed-upon standard or code of behaviour. The only rule was "do as I say, and even as I don't say..."
Naturally, this was both partly intentional, and completely untennable. It is impossible to abide by rules which don't exist, nor even to feel as though you have any control orinfluence over behavioural consequences, nor any right to feel aggrieved at punishments dished out for rules you broke because you didn't know they existed, but which you nonetheless broke.
The rules changed every moment, and so there was really no incentive to behave in any other way than that which had the greatest likelihood of facilitating survival.
Is that why I have such a weird ambivalence about boundaries I wonder? It is almost certainly why I feel powerless to do anything about those who violate mine, and perhaps why I also can never rid my fear of compromising and crossing someone else's, even when I know rationally that I am not doing so. Somewhere in my mind is always the fear that those boundaries and the associated rules of engagement will change without my knowledge, and hence that something that was ok yesterday might not be ok today, and that punishment might suddenly come for something which I may in fact have been encouraged to do in the past, such as seeking help, or disclosing painful truths...
Ah, yes, finally, some insight there I think!
Maddog
When I was a child, one of the scariest unpredictabilities of life was that there were actually very few concrete rules, and hence behavioural boundaries, in our household. Perhaps counterintuitively, my parents did not set rules for us, we had few set chores or responsibilities and there was no agreed-upon standard or code of behaviour. The only rule was "do as I say, and even as I don't say..."
Naturally, this was both partly intentional, and completely untennable. It is impossible to abide by rules which don't exist, nor even to feel as though you have any control orinfluence over behavioural consequences, nor any right to feel aggrieved at punishments dished out for rules you broke because you didn't know they existed, but which you nonetheless broke.
The rules changed every moment, and so there was really no incentive to behave in any other way than that which had the greatest likelihood of facilitating survival.
Is that why I have such a weird ambivalence about boundaries I wonder? It is almost certainly why I feel powerless to do anything about those who violate mine, and perhaps why I also can never rid my fear of compromising and crossing someone else's, even when I know rationally that I am not doing so. Somewhere in my mind is always the fear that those boundaries and the associated rules of engagement will change without my knowledge, and hence that something that was ok yesterday might not be ok today, and that punishment might suddenly come for something which I may in fact have been encouraged to do in the past, such as seeking help, or disclosing painful truths...
Ah, yes, finally, some insight there I think!
Maddog
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