When You Share Your Feelings...

[scout86]

Personally, I love your posts

Thank you! :)

I'm still just as alone as when I started (maybe even more so, because I'm losing hope that I will ever feel connected with people..

First, might it be true that you FEEL alone, even if you're not truly alone? Still a problem, but a slightly different one.
You've got me thinking about this. I now have a question I don't have an answer for (yet?). How do any of us experience this? Know what I mean? How does anyone feel "connected"? Maybe someone who had a "normal" childhood can answer that?

@DogwoodTree , do you think you'd know it if you felt it? Any idea what it would be like?

I feel love for other people,

I'd say that's a legitimate connection. I don't know enough about Asperger's to know how it affects your perception of feelings. From what you've said, I wonder if maybe you never had the chance to learn HOW to receive things like "love"? I guess, ordinarily, that's supposed to come naturally, but I suspect the "right" training could teach a child differently. Then to undo that? Practice? I don't know! But I'd like to think anything that can be screwed up can be relearned. Maybe not perfectly, but better.

 

[DogwoodTree]

First, might it be true that you FEEL alone, even if you're not truly alone? Still a problem, but a slightly different one.

Yes, I realize I'm not truly alone. My DH loves me, my kids love me, even my dysfunctional family loves me as best they know how. People at my church seem to appreciate my being there. But, well, I'm not sure how to explain it. How would a color-blind person explain what they don't see?

I watch people interacting. Someone loses a loved one, or gets a new job, or has a new baby. And people interact with that person in emotional ways. And the person responds as if it makes a difference to them. I thought everyone was acting...just pretending to be touched by interactions with other people. I'm still not completely convinced that they're not acting. But whatever they're getting out of those interactions...I don't. It's just work to me. It's just a performance. I care about people, and want good for them. I go to great lengths to try not to hurt anyone to the best of my understanding of how that should be done in healthy ways. But if someone says Hi to me? Or gives me a gift, or a compliment, or a hug? Or whatever other emotional interaction people have? It's wasted on me. It does nothing for me inside.

How do any of us experience this? Know what I mean? How does anyone feel "connected"?

I honestly don't know. I truly thought everyone was acting...pretending to feel connected. I studied people's behavior and learned the rules and tried to play the part right. But then I got fed up with all this "faking it" and tried to stop faking it, and then people started responding saying I was being cold and mean (e.g., for not giving hugs, or not going through the niceties before starting a conversation, or avoiding small talk, etc), when really I was just trying to be honest and authentic.

do you think you'd know it if you felt it? Any idea what it would be like?

I'm not sure. I have a sense of what I think it would feel like, based on watching other people's reactions to each other. But it's only a guess. And my understanding of all of this has been greatly distorted by growing up around such unhealthy role models (who I was emulating and using their behavior as models for how I should also behave and what I should want, because I thought they represented "normal").

So I've spent the past 2 years intensely studying healthier people and relationships, and trying to engage in relationships in those healthier ways, hoping that maybe I just was pursuing the wrong target, and some redirection would help me figure all of this out. And it has helped to recognize where I was feeding into some dysfunctional relationships--I feel a sense of space and peace as I move away from those destructive relational patterns.

But it's still more of the same overall pattern from my whole life. All my life, I kept thinking, "I just need to keep trying to act more normal, and eventually, I'll pull it off well enough that I will actually feel what normal people feel." But it hasn't worked, no matter which role models I'm using.

I do feel a sense of "presence" with my T that I've only rarely/briefly felt with other people. Is that love?

It seems that he knows himself so deeply and so fully that he doesn't need anything from me...he is completely himself, while holding space for me to just be me. He exists as himself in the relationship...there's no need for mirroring in either direction. (He does, however, offer observations of what he sees in me. It's less like mirroring, and more like "experiencing," if that makes any sense.)

I don't know enough about Asperger's to know how it affects your perception of feelings.

I do have feelings that, I think, are essentially the same as anyone else's. They seem to manifest in my body in rather normal, conventional ways. But the things my feelings respond to are different than what other people's feelings respond to. And I'm never able to express my feelings authentically on the outside with other people. They're locked up inside. I can act sad at "appropriate" times, or happy, or angry. But it's just a performance based on what I think I should be feeling. The real feelings...I can only connect with them when I'm by myself, inside myself, and they still don't manifest on the outside in ways that are discernible to other people.

So...these feelings are very deep and very painful, with no outlet at all.

I wonder if maybe you never had the chance to learn HOW to receive things like "love"?

I think, to a degree, this is true. I never had anyone acknowledge my unique existence in a way that validated my own feelings or thoughts or values, except to the degree that I reflected those people back to themselves. "Sameness" was of the utmost importance. And so I never got to know myself because no one ever acknowledged my existence as my own person. I'm working on that now for myself. But...how do you reflect back yourself to yourself when you have no sense of your own identity?

I'm so used to reflecting everyone else's feelings and desires and expectations of me back to them, because that's what it took for me to know how to act, that I don't know what I feel anymore. I can hardly access my feelings at all when I'm around other people.

But I'd like to think anything that can be screwed up can be relearned. Maybe not perfectly, but better.

The problem is...learned behavior is not quite the same as "being yourself." I can play the games and say the "right" things, but it's not "me." It's just a performance, where I'm cognitively following rules instead of naturally expressing myself.

 

[scout86]

I watch people interacting

Now I think, maybe, I get what you're talking about. The way I describe this to my T is that sometimes life is like being an anthropologist, studying some very different tribe. In particular, I watch families, mothers and kids especially, interact in good and "normal" ways, and just can't relate to it at all. It's like we are 2 separate species. It's cool. It looks like it would be nice, but it's totally foreign. Like you say, similar to color blindness, only maybe seeing colors you don't have names for.

My T says he thinks I "have" alexithymia. I'd never heard of it before. (And sort of went on a tirade about "one more thing that's WRONG with me". LOL) Have you ever heard of it? It has some things in common with Asperger's but isn't the same thing. I wonder, if you want a label, if that one doesn't fit you a little better. There are apparently variations, but the basic idea is that you are cut off from some or all of your emotions. Don't recognize them, aren't aware of them. Not so much that they aren't THERE somewhere, as I understand it. To use your color blind analogy, even if you can see "blue" without a name for it, or attached to it, it's hard to see it as separate from green. Maybe even hard to "see it".

One of the big things I've gotten out of therapy is that I can ask anything I want to, so I can say things like "Wait! You mean people really THINK that way??????" and my T will smile and say "yes" (or no) and do his best to explain it. I can see that sometimes he feels a little sad that I miss a lot of this stuff, but he's perfectly willing to help fill in what we call "the blank spots in my road map of reality", I'm understanding the "rules of the game" better, and it's a relief not to have to try to pretend I get things that I truly don't get. I have no idea whether or not I'll ever really "get it". Honestly, I think I probably won't, not the same way most people do.

Is THAT what you're talking about?

 

[DogwoodTree]

Have you ever heard of it? It has some things in common with Asperger's but isn't the same thing. I wonder, if you want a label, if that one doesn't fit you a little better.

Is THAT what you're talking about?

Yes, I've read up on it. It can coexist with asperger's, or maybe be considered a part of it. I still think AS fits me better because of my patterns of trying to learn how to socialize, and how socializing is basically just following rules for me, not something that happens as a natural expression of myself. I also have intense special interests, which typically sets AS apart from similar syndromes. That, and sensory sensitivities.

I can see how watching mothers and children together would seem alien to you if you don't have children and didn't have a good mom. What about when you watch people who are more like you? Do they still feel like aliens?

Wait! You mean people really THINK that way?????

Yes, I do that...moreso as I learn to identify those moments quickly enough to point them out, rather than going along acting like I get it..

it's a relief not to have to try to pretend I get things that I truly don't get

One of my Ts joked about something in my session this week. She had to say, since I didn't laugh, That was a joke. It took me a minute, and by the time I got it, it just wasn't funny anymore. (I was amused by it a couple of hours later, though...sigh)

 

[scout86]

What about when you watch people who are more like you?

That's such a small group! LOL Honestly, most of the time it feels like I'M the alien and I hoping no one notices. There's a small group of people who seem to think I'm ok anyway. This forum is about the only place it seems like there are "people like me". And, the main reason I never wanted to have kids was that I knew I had no idea what to do with them. I LIKE kids, but I tend to treat them as short people rather than "kids". I'm not aware of ever having looked at the world any differently than I do now, so I kind of don't "get" the whole "childhood" thing. The prospect of trying to deal with it totally freaks me out.

not something that happens as a natural expression of myself.

I'm struggling a bit with "socializing can be a natural expression of yourself". LOL It seems more like NOT socializing is a natural expression of myself. But I actually can do fine, when I have to. I think this is more of a PTSD thing, for me. Thinking about it in advance, I dread it. Force me to deal with people and I usually manage. At least long enough to get by.

Hyper-focusing can also be an ADHD thing. Really, and my T says this a lot, all of these traits exist on a continuum. When they reach a certain, arbitrary level, someone gives them a name. They only exist as "conditions" because someone decided to name them. On the other hand, there's probably a lot of "stuff" out there that hasn't been named yet. I'm not sure that means it doesn't exist.

I would imagine there's huge variation in people diagnosed with Asperger's. My old dentist is the only person I know, personally, who I know has been categorized that way. He was an awesomely good dentist. (Now retired.) But, he was also noticeably "different". And it seems like he's got an odd awareness of his difference. Like, a lot of the time it doesn't occur to him that HE'S in the minority. He was married to a good friend of mine, so I know a bit about him. He doesn't seem bothered because he has Asperger's, he seems more bothered by the people in his life who DON'T, if that makes any sense. Could just be part of his basic personality too.

 

[DogwoodTree]

There's a small group of people who seem to think I'm ok anyway

Do you feel more relaxed with them, like you can just be yourself? Do you say things without thinking about it, and it's okay? Do you feel a sense of comfort from being around them?

I'm not sure, exactly, what it is I'm trying to define here. I just know I watch people interacting with each other, and seeming to get something out of it that I can't identify in my own experience.

It seems more like NOT socializing is a natural expression of myself. But I actually can do fine, when I have to.

I actually do want to socialize (to a degree...I'm still very much an introvert). I want to connect with people. And I know enough of the rules to play the games. But it's only a performance. So if the fake me shows up, there's no connection with the real me, even though the fake me can fake it well enough for everyone else to feel like it looks fairly normal. But if the real me shows up, I may as well be curled up in a corner, because, well, it just doesn't work. It's too bizarre and there's no connection. I may as well be speaking Martian. It's like...the real me simply isn't able to form a connection, fake or otherwise.

I feel like I'm still not making sense. I just know that what I experience and what I observe in other people from their reactions...it's completely different.

Really, and my T says this a lot, all of these traits exist on a continuum. When they reach a certain, arbitrary level, someone gives them a name.

Yes, agreed. I see AS as being an insightful set of descriptions that can give helpful clues on how to adapt. It's like a cognitive structure to make sense of the chaos inside. It might not be completely accurate, and AS certainly does exist on a spectrum. But I haven't found another "label" or "box" that fits any better.

Personally, I think there are way more varieties of AS than are currently recognized. Intense World Theory begins to address some of that.

He doesn't seem bothered because he has Asperger's, he seems more bothered by the people in his life who DON'T, if that makes any sense.

This makes a ton of sense. I find I'm most comfortable with people who have aspie-like traits, or ADHD since it seems to be closely related.

 

[DogwoodTree]

Here's a list of aspie traits for females. I can check off about 85-90% of them.

Link Removed

And here's an online aspie test that is well-recognized as a good screening tool. I've consistently scored well within the aspie range over the past year+.

http://www.rdos.net/eng/Aspie-quiz.php

 

[scout86]

Do you feel more relaxed with them, like you can just be yourself?

Yes. Like I said, it's a small group, but I DO feel like I can just be myself and it will be ok. Mostly it will be ok because, even if they have no idea what I'm talking about, they are more inclined to accept things they don't understand than to pass judgement. Now, my T says that one of his goals is for me to be "more who I really am more of the time". And he says "who I really am" is ok. Different, but ok. (Yep, he actually said that.) It's an interesting thought. And, I've been working at it. And it's going ok, mostly. I'm finding that a lot of my fear of being unacceptable probably comes from a time when it was necessary to be "acceptable" to survive. That's childhood. As an adult, my life doesn't literally depend on other people.

So if the fake me shows up, there's no connection with the real me,

So, what's the difference between the fake you and the real you?

I feel like I'm still not making sense. I just know that what I experience and what I observe in other people from their reactions...it's completely different.

I was thinking about this while I was driving home this afternoon. Here, you really do seem as "normal" as anybody else here. So I might be thinking you're not as different as you think you are. That it's "all in your head"? If you'll pardon the expression? But, maybe I'm missing the point too. I was thinking about what you've said about not being able to connect to anyone, even the horses. For me, connecting with animals is easy, because they're safe. Their motives are simple and easy to understand. If they act like they like you, it's because they do, you know?

What's the real you like? Who are we talking to here?

 

[DogwoodTree]

Here, you really do seem as "normal" as anybody else here. So I might be thinking you're not as different as you think you are.

Writing on the computer is somewhat different. I have time to think and process what I want to say. If I take an hour, or a day, to respond...no one notices the difference. If I spend 30 minutes reading over the same paragraph to get it to say what I want it to...no one knows I did that. So I can bring more of my thoughts to the surface in a way that is intelligible to others. Still though, I don't feel an emotional connection through it.

I've had people IRL tell me I'm very different by email than in person. And it's true. Hiding behind a computer screen is much easier. Read through an aspie forum, and you'll see much of the same kind of thing. People there seem just as "normal" as any other forum. But IRL...we stand out like a sore thumb, or somehow have managed to become invisible. Even if I hit a good day where I pull it off and seem to do everything more-or-less "right"...I don't feel connected. (I do have very strong feelings...but feeling connected, comforted by other people, isn't one of them, even though I want it to be.)

So, what's the difference between the fake you and the real you?

I'm not sure yet. I thought everyone was faking it, so I thought that was "real." I don't know who the real me is.

What's the real you like? Who are we talking to here?

Even talking here requires a certain amount of posturing. The more "real" I try to be IRL, the more distant people feel I'm being towards them.

I "hid" all of this from my DH and everyone else for decades because I thought everyone else was doing the same thing and it was just part of the "game"--that you didn't talk about it. Once I told him and I started trying to explain it to him since it didn't make sense to him...he's been very hurt and wondering if I even love him. (I do, it just looks different.) He's been so hurt by all of this that I've tried to back off and start acting "right" a little more, for his benefit. But it seems it might be too late. Now he knows I'm acting, and he doesn't buy it.

 

[scout86]

Now he knows I'm acting, and he doesn't buy it.

This is too bad! And I think he's making a mistake. Just because you see it as "acting" doesn't mean it's a lie. Actors play a lot of roles. Some are close to their "real selves" some aren't. You can chose to play a role for a lot of different reasons too. The ,.;/'./role you're playing with him, you're doing it because you value him and care about him. And THAT would be "true", regardless of how you describe your feelings or connections with people.

I think a lot of the time you're right, "normal" people are playing roles or games and masking their true feelings. For a lot of different reasons. A lot of people are different at work, or at home, or at church, or among friends. They may not have thought about it as much or as honestly as you have.

I have time to think and process what I want to say.

My T actually encourages me to do this. Maybe for different reasons, but not all that different. There are a couple of family members where just dealing with them kind of sets me off. He encourages me to deal with people like that by email. It gives me some distance, so I feel safe enough to think instead of just react. He's been willing to read their emails & my responses and clue me in to things that I'd have missed otherwise. For me, I'm pretty sure this is a PTSD thing, not the original wiring.

It's been a messy morning here & I'm running really late. Got to go! But, I'm going to think on this some more today, between stops.

 

[DogwoodTree]

There are a couple of family members where just dealing with them kind of sets me off. He encourages me to deal with people like that by email.

Yes, I do this with some family members for the same reasons you listed, even though when I'm conversing verbally with them, it doesn't take as much thinking as with some people because I grew up around my family and I know their patterns of interaction. But they're so easily offended that I have to be careful due to family dysfunction and history.

With other people, though...people who are healthier but less familiar...I have to think through how to interact with them because it's just not so obvious or natural to me.

That's really cool your T helps you with the emails.

 

[scout86]

That's really cool your T helps you with the emails.

It IS, and I really appreciate it. Never expected it though. It kind of started with an email from my mom where I wanted an objective opinion on whether is seemed as crazy as I thought it was. (He said it was.)

I guess what I've decided is that the person I want to be is more like the person who thought about what she was going to say than like the person who gets triggered and over reacts to stuff. I'm hoping that the more I practice thinking before I react, the better I'll get at it. I think, if you're able to do it at all, you can probably get better with practice.