“betrayal from mother” and blame?

[shimmerz]

It was frogthroat who said about defending her mother against her father’s abuse. Neither of my parents have ever been abusive - to me or to each other.

Ah, okay. Thank you. I stand corrected. My apologies and thank you for pointing that out to me so kindly.

And it looks to me as if blame is about taking responsibility.

<Moderator edit to remove copywritten material>

And I agree with blackemerald 100%. Doctors in those days were revered. I remember people saying that you didn't EVER question a doctor. That they knew what they were doing. And at that time they needed doctors to be all knowing. After all, there was no google! :cautious::geek::rolleyes:

I think your mom made an error in judgement based on cultural beliefs at the time. That makes her culpable and a player in the situation, which makes her human - not a monster.

 

[blackemerald1]

things were different then.

Yep our mothers are from the same era. Things were very different then. Male professional (particularly a doctor) v female mother...the relationships would have been powerful male v female, mother and vulnerable child. The perpetrator got away with doing the crime because of his position.

I think a lot of people just nod and go along with doctors

Yes and they still do. There are plenty of doctors thrown off the register for all sorts of unprofessional reasons including assault and even murder. Being a doctor is a privileged position and really a lot of them could re-do their integrity and ethics bit. It is dreadful that there has to be a victim who is heard before anything can be done about them. Better still...give them all a police check and psych test before admitting them to study. But I suspect even that would not filter out these bastards.

she took me there in good faith

Yes and I think that it really important to remember. She took you there to resolve a problem not create one.

parents don’t all have a crystal ball, right?

No parents do not. I know this too well.

my mother is one of them so it’s one area to unpack.

Yes...it the chain of steps that led to your trauma acknowledgement of that is critical.

For blame, there has to be ill intent?

My opinion...is yes. To use the words blame and betrayal I would need to know there was either reckless, careless,intentional ill intent...just mho.

t’s not like she deliberately put me in harm’s way.

Well she did put in the doctors office. But it is why she put you there and could she or would she have forseen he was a predator?

it feels harsh and unfair to give her any responsibility for it.

Not harsh for any responsibility. Just a participant in the journey that led you to being assaulted. Neutral?

she would be horrified and devastated if I told her now

I could not think of anything that would devastate me more. She would blame herself for her naivety and never forgive herself. I had a close call with one of my children and a teacher once. But I only noticed something odd because I was trained in a particular area. Had I not received that training and experience the teacher would not have been caught.

I don’t really know what is fair and reasonable

What you believe to be the truth is what is fair and reasonable. No magical thinking. No but what if's...

You don't need to defend your mother for something she did not do. However she did take you to that doctor and therefore she is responsible for taking you there. Her part begins and ends at that in my view. The rest of the blame is with the predator.

I can completely relate to your mother's actions and how terrible it would be for her if she knew the truth. This doesn't make it any easier for you at all. In fact probably the reverse because if you could tell her who did this to you and when it may assist you. Idk? But the problem I see is that you cannot tell her on the basis that she would feel responsible and do a whole lot of magical thinking about how she should have known... etc. Is this going to help you? Probably not.

We have to be very, very careful looking through the lens of 2018 back in time. It is perilous to do so without understanding this.

It is terribly sad @barefoot. I think you are doing really well with working on this because it is the unchallenged things that can do us so much damage.

 

[scout86]

So, is that the difference between me placing responsibility with someone vs blaming them?
For blame, there has to be ill intent?

My T is kind of big on the subject of blame not being very useful. I think I understand what he means, but I'm not at all sure I can explain it. I'm going to try anyway.

When you "blame" someone, that's a feeling YOU generate. You decide that someone was responsible and it's kind of "all their fault:" and that's sort of where it ends. To me, "blame" is more like a way to emotionally punish someone than merely noting someone else it responsible for events. The problem with "blame" I think, is that we tend to get stuck there. Everything is all someone else's fault. Maybe, on some level, we even expect them to fix it, since it's all their fault. I think it's useful to sort out who's responsible for what, but I don't think it's useful to spend a lot of energy being angry and blaming someone for stuff that's done and can't be undone. It's probably a fine like. I think it's helpful to understand reality as best we can. Not helpful to keep rehashing "blame". Even if you're inclined to "blame" yourself.

I've got my own thoughts on what parents are responsible for.

I also think that parents are 100% responsible for their children and what happens to them is a failure of them to protect you.

I think that might go too far. We don't live in a perfect world and we don't live in a "safe" world. No one can keep anyone 100% "safe" or protected, no matter how hard they try or how much they care. Stuff happens to kids sometimes, no matter how good their parents are. Parents shouldn't feel like they need to beat themselves up for that.

BUT... This IS a topic I've thought about. A lot.

My T has kids. I think he's probably a really good parent. (His kids voluntarily hang out with him, as adults. I take that as a good sign.) I've asked myself what would have happened if his daughter had been/gone through some of the situations I did. Here's what I think. First, she'd have already known that she had some rights and she'd have done a better job of sticking up for herself. He would have taught her that her feelings have value and she was allowed to say "no". Second, she'd have been comfortable going to her parents for help. It would have occurred to her that parents even WERE a potential source of help. She'd have been believed, and helped, and things from there would have gone differently. You can't keep people from getting wounded, but you can sure have an influence on the nature of the resulting scars.

The reason I asked myself "what would have happened with one of his kids?" is something he said to me once. "Have you ever thought about what would have happened if you had had a different mother? ANY mother?" Up till he said it, no, I hadn't thought about that.

And I don't "blame" my mother for anything. She was a pretty damaged, messed up person. She wasn't qualified to be a mother and she didn't do a very good job. End of story. No malice. She didn't have me so she could dislike me. It was bad luck. That's all.

 

[Abstract]

Just my take and partly about recent thoughts I have about my own situation: I have been trying to let myself work through feelings of betrayal. that I have denied. It seems to be something that sets me off in my present life. I don't think betrayal has to equal blame . Your mother wasnt responsible for the abuse with the dr you mention - the dr was. You, in my opinion, have a right to feel betrayed even though she obviously was not equipped to protect you in this situation. In fact even if equipped it was unlikely to have helped you until after. There are many factors than contribute to the way people respond. All I can say is thank goodness I never had children. :(

That does not mean you dont have a right to feel betrayed. Betrayed by someone in an esteemed position of responsibility. Betrayed by a parent maybe doing the best (or hiding from reality for their own discomfort) but none the less betrayed by adults who were supposed to be protecting you. You can, in fact, allow yourself to feel those feelings without putting blame onto her. She is not responsible for the abusive acts of others.
I am not presuming to know your situation but I will say there is a difference to putting the blame about the act onto someone and maybe thinking of responsibility of denial (to protect the persons own pain) or even the lack of knowledge and consequences). I do have something very similar that happened to you I think. Although my mother has admitted that I said something at the time and yet she didnt do anything.

If you put aside whom is to blame for what then what will help you work through the emotions you need to work through in order to get better. If you dont allow yourself to do that then you can get stuck. Allow the reality to be something you can deal with and dont should yourself.

 

[ben1982]

It's about understanding cause and effect. Blaming someone for failing doesn't have to be resentment. It doesn't mean someone had bad intentions. It doesn't mean you have to love them any less. It just means that person didn't accomplished their goal or job. It's about responsibility. Every parent has responsibilities towards their children. Nobody is perfect and sometimes people fail despite of all their good intentions. If we accept that they have failed. We can learn from that failure and move on. This can be a painful process. But also very rewarding in the long run.
My father have failed me at some points. I don't recent him for it. I accept and love him despite of his failures and imperfections. Just the way he is. And better yet, I learned from his failures. So that i don't make the same mistakes he did. And he takes responsibility for his failures. But he doesn't feel guilty anymore. Because we discussed it, processed it, forgave, and moved on. We don't have to carry all that weight around anymore.

 

[barefoot]

Sorry for my delay responding to the most recent posts. My brain was tripping out on this for a while so I decided to avoid it for a bit!

I think your mom made an error in judgement based on cultural beliefs at the time. That makes her culpable and a player in the situation, which makes her human - not a monster.

Yes. I think so too. I definitely don’t see her as a monster.

.give them all a police check and psych test before admitting them to study. But I suspect even that would not filter out these bastards.

I’m sure you’re right and that they’d wheedle their way through all the checks anyway.

Well she did put in the doctors office. But it is why she put you there and could she or would she have forseen he was a predator?

She definitely took me there thinking he was going to help me feel better.

Not harsh for any responsibility. Just a participant in the journey that led you to being assaulted. Neutral?

Hmm...something for me to think about...despite what all of you are saying, I am still finding it hard to view responsibility as neutral. I don’t know why my brain is being so slow on the uptake with this distinction!

It is terribly sad @barefoot. I think you are doing really well with working on this because it is the unchallenged things that can do us so much damage.

Thank you - that’s sweet of you to say.

This doesn't make it any easier for you at all. In fact probably the reverse because if you could tell her who did this to you and when it may assist you. Idk?

To be honest, I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t have told her even if she wasn’t in any way anything to do with the scenario. I’ve never told her anything about anything else that’s happened to me, which weren’t related to her at all. I don’t know why that is really. To be fair though, I’ve never told anyone about any of these things - only my T. And my partner now knows a tiny amount about this doctor experience - in that she just knows that I had a doctor who was sexually abusive when I was a kid.

Stuff happens to kids sometimes, no matter how good their parents are.

Yes, exactly.

First, she'd have already known that she had some rights and she'd have done a better job of sticking up for herself. He would have taught her that her feelings have value and she was allowed to say "no". Second, she'd have been comfortable going to her parents for help.

Yes, this resonates. I wasn’t brought up to speak up, to voice feelings, to advocate for myself. Probably because my parents - especially my mother - aren’t very good at doing that for themselves either. I was brought up to do as I was told.

If you put aside whom is to blame for what then what will help you work through the emotions you need to work through in order to get better.

That’s a good question and a very difficult one. I don’t really know what emotions I have about this experience. I’m not conscious of feeling any anger - towards my mum or the doctor. If anything, I feel angry with myself for letting it happen. For not saying or doing anything to stop it. I could have moved and I didn’t. I could have called out to my mum and I didn’t. And I know I was a kid. And I now know that I totally froze and dissociated. But still - it bothers me still that I just let it happen.

I suppose the only emotions I can really feel about it now is that I feel sad. Grief. Which is fairly new as mostly I couldn’t really feel anything about it. Except maybe just some anxiety when I talked to my T about it. So...there is probably shame too.

 

[scout86]

I could have called out to my mum and I didn’t

I know it's true that there was nothing physically preventing you from calling to your mother. I think there actually WAS something preventing you from doing it though. You'd been raised not to think of that as an option. So it wasn't on your mental list of "possible options".

 

[blackemerald1]

You'd been raised not to think of that as an option.

Yes I agree with @scout86 - Now...there so many occasions when children are told that they do have options. So entirely different situation now.

I remember when I was a child I was taken to a dentist... Some sort of 'government' dentist back in the day. Probably was a Large animal Veterinarian really...idk.;) He was really, REALLY hurting me and the nurse was holding me down, screaming at me, my mother was screaming at me and he was screaming at me to hold my mouth open with his hands inside of my mouth. I did my absolute best but the reflex from the pain kicked in and I was trying to pull my head away...to get away....as in run away....hanging half out of the chair scrambling to find my feet... He was swearing at me etc., it was pretty wild and frenzied. But I think I was pretty feral as a kid too. Then... I bit him...not deliberately but what can I say...:eek: He yelled ' you evil little bitch you bit me... get out' and told my mother to 'never bring that little bitch back'. :hilarious::oops: I brought tremendous shame on my parents.. But no more dentist for me..:singing::playful:

About 15 years later when I was sort of an adult.:woot: I decided it was time to go to a Dentist. He was very kind and considerate and he definitely was a Dentist! Almost 50 years later..I still have my own teeth... But I never lived down the shame I bought on my parents. :notworthy::meh:
So I was punished many times over by my parents....:nailbiting:

It was just that era...

 

[barefoot]

You'd been raised not to think of that as an option.

Yes, I suppose I’ve never really thought about that before...

Plus, dissociating doesn’t make one the most proactive either.

But you’re right - I think it probably was a combination of shock/fear/dissociation mixed with a belief that I should do as I’m told and not make a fuss. Rather ironically, I remember at one point at the time worrying that I didn’t want to do something wrong. Because it would be embarrassing (shameful, probably) and because I didn’t want the doctor or my mum to be angry with me.

@blackemerald1 - your experience with the dentist sounds horrible. Terrifying. I don’t blame you for not going back for so long. Kudos to you for ever getting back in a dentist’s chair again!

 

[Teasel]

So I guess you could say society as a whole was at fault - and that this was a good portion of how your Mum wasn't as there for you as she could have been nowadays?

 

[blackemerald1]

I am sure that was my first and last experience with the Dentist whilst living with my parents. It was bad...I guess I just got 'over' it. My parents however reminded me and shamed me...constantly. That was probably harder to put up with really. Though he is definitely dead now...I am not sorry I did bite him. :wacky:

I would not have allowed a Dentist to proceed with a procedure on my children if they were experiencing pain. It's not like I got all sooky about them feeling any pain. It was simply that very bad pain doesn't have to be part of a dental procedure if things are done correctly.

I agree with you @berlinda - at least for me..that was the society or era my parents belonged to and this is definitely one area that I am glad society has evolved away from. :)

 

[MyWillow]

@barefoot I’m not sure this is helpful but... I think one of the important things our T can do for us is show us both sides of the story. To get away from that black and white thinking that people are either all good or all bad. Which is a COMPLETELY acceptable view when looked at from a young child’s perspective. That’s what keeps us safe! But as adults it’s not so helpful.

I’m the opposite in that I’m so angry with my Mum for not protecting me and my T will gently point out how my Mum has always and currently struggles under my Dad’s influence. Sometimes I can nod in understanding and sometimes I don’t give a flying f*ck. But being made aware of the other side of the coin helps my subconscious when either I need to set boundaries or need to accept that my Mum is trying to mend our relationship.