News Another Shooting In The Us

[cherryblossom]

The point was that no one would need a gun if they respected themselves and each other more!

Understood - thanks for answering :) (sometimes it would be so much easier to actually hear what someone says, rather than just see the written words, but I suppose it helps us all with communication skills;) )

 

[Philippa]

Phillipa... you're speaking for a minority of the country when you say things like, Australia is trying to become something else.

I actually said that many people would like to see Australia become sovereign to the monarchy, not that Australia is trying to become something else, if you look back at my quote.

Wanting it to be something else doesn't mean it is or will be...and yes, it is the minority that think this.

 

[Philippa]

Albatross cited in the US constitution the right to bear arms to stand up against your own Government. Kind of says a lot about issues being present, hence guns present, hence high crime. Would you really want that type of silliness here due to putting too much power into a persons hands via presidency? I know I wouldn't, and it seems most of the country agrees each time a vote is done on this issue.

I agree with what you are saying in regards to having no guns resolves the crime issue, although the black market can make things more easily accessible these days, if an individual wanted to get one, and i'm not saying that I would want guns to become a way of life in Australia. I certainly wouldn't, though I don't have a problem with the responsable use of a firearm for hunting purposes.

I do like the idea of being able to stand down any government that does not appear to be acting in the interests of it's people though, but most Australians are too spoon-fed and timid to stand up to their own parents when wrong stuff goes on, let alone their government. Sure, we have debates about it, which does nothing to stop them from getting away with things that aren't necessarily in the interests of everyone else.

I don't like the idea that most people are brainwashed into thinking that we work for the government, when it is supposed to be the other way around. Perhaps the system works here because most people are too compliant with what they are told will be implemented and that's how status quo maintains it's power. Nobody ever rocks the boat when they see stuff happening, so nothing ever changes. People just complain about it to the neighbours and forget about it, and keep complaining without actually taking a stand and standing up to decisions that are made without our knowledge or input.

In an employer/employee relationship...if an employee is not doing their job right and making things harder for the business, the employer will then sack them and replace them with someone better. I don't see why we cannot do the same thing when we have idiots running our country!

But at least we can all hold a divided opinion about issues and still remain somewhat civil.

 

[anthony]

The UK isn't monarch mad.

I hope you know what I mean... the Monarch is a UK thing, not really all other Commonwealth countries care about them versus the political Governmental structure which is vastly different. Brits tend to love the royal family, especially from a televised view they do.

It's like saying Australians don't love their sport... when Aussies are sports nuts as a majority.

 

[Loner]

I am happy to admit that I'm probably very naive and un-educated in this matter, but how is the US more likely to suffer tyranny, than the UK, the rest of Europe, Australia etc. Are you suggesting that every citizen, the world over should carry a firearm?

So fear is not a valid reason to own a firearm? Your reason for carrying a firearm doesn't make much sense to me. If fear of being a victim isn't the reason, what is the reason? If people don't want to use a gun, I don't understand why they would carry one. So fear for your own life wouldn't be a reason to take another's life?

I still believe that this is cultural differences in what we believe. And I believe that cultural belief's can be changed with the right education.

I was brutally and repeatedly raped at knife point. It was the most horrendous experience ever. However, I seriously can't imagine having a hand gun and shooting him. I really can't picture that. Probably because gun culture is no-where to be found in my brain. I simply can't imagine shooting another human being..... ever. I really can't. I'm not being argumentative for the sake of it, I just honestly can't see myself (past, present or future) shooting someone.

He threatened to cut my throat with a knife - I can visualise me cutting him. Maybe if he'd held me at gun point I would be able to visualise me shooting him. Perhaps I can only cope with violence 'tit for tat'. I wasn't armed to defend myself at the time. And please don't underestimate the amount of hatred I still have for him, but I'm not sure I could have lived with myself if I'd have killed another human being.

I'll reply to your points in the reverse order that you stated them,

I am really sorry for what happened to you. I dont mean this as an insult AT ALL, in fact it is a compliment, but I think you're just too nice for your own good. A great many rape victims actually say things like that the wouldnt of wanted to hurt their attacker even if they were able to. I think predators can see these kind of people and pick them out to prey upon. Its really sad cus those are the last people who deserve to be subjected to that. Me, I kind of have a utilitarian perspective, I believe in choosing the action that will provide the most amount of happiness t the greatest number of people, therefore, the rights of someone who enjoys hurting others for sport become far less important to me than the rights of someone who enjoys trying to make the world a better place. I don't think rapists deserve to die, but what they deserve is irrelevant, if killing them is the only way to stop them from causing pain and suffering to others, it is an acceptable solution.

I think this divide of different kinds of people really ties into the whole gun thing. I think some people just really do not want to wrap their heads around violence ever being necessary or 'good' in any way. Personally I think this is naive, but thats not even a judgement, as people who think this way are often awesome kind people.

About fear, fear alone isnt a valid reason for any course of action I don't think. Fear however, is different than an honest and valid assessment of risks. It might seem like splitting hairs, but while some people do carry guns out of fear, many carry just because they know the world is unsafe, and would like the ability to defend themselves if it comes to that. Think of seatbelts. You don't put them on because you're scared, you do so because it seems silly not to. I don't carry a gun, but some people do view doing so in this way. I'm not sure that makes sense, I'd be happy to expand on it a bit more.

Lastly, nothing says the US is more threatened by tyranny than any other country. Our founding fathers just happened to recognize the threat and take steps to ensure our population had a legally protected right to arm themselves.

No I am not going to debate with you, You do not debate you bully. And no the question was not aimed at you or albatross it was a question that I was interested in the answer, not that you will believe that because you are just intent on your bullying tactics and trying to read my mind and tell me what I have intended when you have no idea. I am very familiar with that kind of controlling and bullying and I am not responding to you anymore. You are not debating, you are just attacking continuously

I am sorry you feel that way. It was not my intent. Was there anything I said before calling you a lame debater, or was it just that? Keep in mind you were sarcastic with me well before that, and I think I was respectful up until a few posts ago. Regardless, sorry you feel bullied.

Anthony, I respect your view that America needs tighter controls, but its easy to be a critic. Do you have any solution for how to impose tighter controls without establishing a national registry? A national registry will never happen. Bans on things like semi autos and high cap mags are pretty irrelevant and stopgap measures at best, as well as being very hard to quantify the benefit such bans will actually have. Hyperbole gets thrown around of civilians having no need for things, but that is not a valid reason to ban them. I would be all for a better system of background checks that didnt create a national registry, but I just can't imagine one. I would really love to hear some suggestions besides the same old tired ban this ban that hyperbole.

Also, as an interesting aside, the prison system's flaws are directly tied to the war on drugs. The vast majority of non violent prisoners are in there for drug crimes, and the private, for profit prison system has a powerful lobby that resits the legalization of drugs or the lessening of penalties associated with them. Get rid of the war on drugs and the prison system's problems will largely disappear. I do wonder though, cus you put them together and it certainly seems like the seeds of what would grow into tyranny someday. Sometimes I wonder if its all really just about keeping the population under control. The us has a higher % of its pop incarcerated than any other country I believe.

 

[Philippa]

A great many rape victims actually say things like that the wouldnt of wanted to hurt their attacker even if they were able to. I think predators can see these kind of people and pick them out to prey upon.

I think you are right about that, however, how do you remove the training and conditioning from so many women who have been taught that caring for everyone is the most important thing, as well as understanding them...even when the rapist cares nothing for you and isn't the least bit interested in understanding us? That's rhetorical by the way.

I think this divide of different kinds of people really ties into the whole gun thing. I think some people just really do not want to wrap their heads around violence ever being necessary or 'good' in any way. Personally I think this is naive, but thats not even a judgement, as people who think this way are often awesome kind people.

I have come to agree with this viewpoint over the years, and changed my way of thinking in regards to this issue you raise. For me, I believe violence is a part of all of us, and it's natural. It can be a good thing to defend ourselves, and that is how it is meant to be used. I think it is possible to still remain a kind and caring person, and still be ready at any moment to fight if you need to preserve your own safety or that of a loved one/s...but since most of us have had that instinct driven out of us, or our instincts in general, it can be harder to apply in real life.

I once stared down a rapist in a dark street on my way home. We had a 40 second stare off, and then he hopped it down the laneway and got in his car and drove off. When you let a rapist know, by way of holding eye contact with them, that you are not an easy target, then nine times out of ten they will think they made a mistake in picking you. It doesn't even need to escalate to the point of violence...psychologically defeating them without even speaking a word or making a move is a valid method, I can vouch for that.

If the scenario does not give the person the chance to even have eye contact with them...say if they grab you from behind, then it is appropriate to do whatever you need to to defend yourself, and I don't care if I get hurt physically in the process...although I have had countless people tell me the story about how not fighting saved my life the first time around. Well yeah, it did, but it left me even more scarred because I didn't fight back when I vowed I would if it ever came to that. We are taught to submit as women, in so many areas of our lives, and it really holds us back from our potential I think.

So yeah, that is one thing that I still struggle with though...the conflict between the way I think now, and the conditioning that still exists within my mind, that I worry may prove to overcome me if it ever comes to that again, which hopefully it never does.

About fear, fear alone isnt a valid reason for any course of action I don't think. Fear however, is different than an honest and valid assessment of risks. It might seem like splitting hairs, but while some people do carry guns out of fear, many carry just because they know the world is unsafe, and would like the ability to defend themselves if it comes to that. Think of seatbelts. You don't put them on because you're scared, you do so because it seems silly not to. I don't carry a gun, but some people do view doing so in this way. I'm not sure that makes sense, I'd be happy to expand on it a bit more.

I think you can be aware that the world is not safe without walking around emitting fear vibes all the time...which also, by the way, are what a predator picks up on at a very primal, animal level. I am aware that there are dangerous people out there, but I don't walk around constantly shitting myself waiting for something bad to happen...I just remain alert to the possibility that it could at any moment.

Metaphysics is something I have had an interest in for many years, and I do believe that if you emit the victim vibe, then you will attract someone to confirm that status to you.

 

[anthony]

I think when you put millions of people together, all individuals, it absolutely is a requirement to keep them under control. If not... you may as well give everyone a gun, abolish laws and maybe you live, maybe you die, at any given time based on whether someone feels like killing you today or not.

With populations compounding to co-habitate in built-up locations... yep, control is everything from a Governmental viewpoint.

As for fixes... well, there are plenty of countries around the world who have made changes, measured the impact of those hard decisions already, which the US can use to improve upon or adopt as is. At some point, the populous minority has to suck it up if something is for the greater good of an entire nation.

The first order of business would be to make voting compulsory. You don't vote, you get fined. If you can't even achieve something as simple as getting people out of their door and to a voting booth once every few years, then what chance do you really have of actually ever changing anything, when a major percentage of your populous don't have their say / attempt to have their say?

The second order of business would be to force all politicians away from campaign contributions. No such thing... all funded by the Government only, an assigned value each, so there is no more buying your way into power. Go for capitalism in your economy if that is what floats the countries boat via point one, voting, however; it should not be who has the most money is running your damn country. That is ludicrous in itself and means IOU's which aren't in the best interest of the populous.

Once you get those two squared away... then you let your countries people vote things in or out for a while, to get the ball rolling, then step back to voting once every x years for elections, and trust your politicians to represent the people, not the corporations, any longer.

I don't need to make solutions as being an outsider, those two above changes will allow the citizens to make all the changes necessary as a nation, instead of what currently happens due to issue #2 above.

We've mentioned history in this topic already, however; history is not something you stick to for the sack of it, as evolution is part of change, and change is part of making history. If you don't change historical aspects that no longer work today, then you're blind sided to history being the only indictor for your future, which means you're screwed.

 

[Loner]

Phillipa, do you think its conditioning? I kind of think maybe its just the way many females are naturally. I really don't know, as I am not female, I have no real idea as to that.It seems to make sense evolutionarily though, at least in some ways.

Anthony, those are great suggestions, however, you suggested tighter controls on gun ownership. Its really easy to be a critic, and say oh this needs to change, but the fact remains, I would be supportive of measures for gun control that seem like theyd have a good chance of limiting the potential for guns to be used in bad manner without either creating a national registry of gun owners, or outright bans on certain types of firearms or firearm accessories, but I have to hear anyone come up with anything that seems to be able to work within those confines. Perhaps, we should just accept that it is an imperfect system, and if gun ownership, without a national registry, is important to Americans, there is going to be some collateral damage. Its the same thing as automobile use being important to many developed countries and needing to accept some collateral costs because of that.

 

[Philippa]

I think females are, for the most part naturally caring anyway. We need to be, as mothers or potential mothers...but I do think that the disinclination to use violence as a means of protecting ourselves is counter active to the strong instinct toward self-preservation that females tend to have over males. Conditioned submissiveness however, is something I believe has been instilled in us from a very long time ago...for a reason. I won't steer this into a feminist rant though.

Yes, we are naturally submissive to a degree, most of us...there are exceptions, and some women are naturally dominant, like alpha females. By conditioned submissiveness I mean we are groomed from a young age to always say yes, and please others, and never say no. So many women find it so incredibly hard to say no in daily life, to all sorts of things they really should say no to. Putting themselves last before others so as to avoid being perceived as selfish is, in my opinion, extremely detrimental, and in the end, it cannot be the best thing for a mother, as if she does not take care of herself first she will have nothing left to give to her children, and then they suffer.

My mothers generation are a generation of women who never got their needs met, and as a result, don't know how to nurture themselves or their kids. My generation have the task of now learning how to re-nurture and parent ourselves as a result. Many of us don't know where to begin with this, and need guidance.

 

[anthony]

Anthony, those are great suggestions, however, you suggested tighter controls on gun ownership.

As you said earlier though, which you're right... they're all knowns and been beaten to death both in and outside the US, about the US gun issue.

I figure it would obviously be easier to start some place easier first, like voting and how Government contributions are controlled.

That is gun control. When you don't have the NRA pumping exorbitant amounts of money into key political figures accounts for them to be in power, suddenly you kill a whole lot of issues by thinking outside the box a little. :D

 

[Philippa]

Is there some sort of rigorous psychological testing that happens before someone is allowed a gun license?

There should be, IMO, along with a license to have kids!:D

 

[anonymous]

Slightly off topic, as I do enjoy a healthy debate, I hope the personal attacks such as name calling cease as it spoils the energy. Different opinions are great and disagreement is fine but no need to get narky with one another.... we are all adults here. I was disappointed to read a couple of the comments just now.