Attitudes - Physical Vs Mental Illness

[Powder]

I'm not in the best place, emotionally, today. But honestly, they may be thinking about having you hospitalized and having an excuse to force it, with unanimous vote; it sounds like they are trying to get on the same page about what to think, and for some reason or motive. After all that I've read about your Ex and the sons, I'm none too trusting. Don't be fooled that just because they sound caring that that's all they feel/think.

If they all are talking about it behind your back, how ill you look, they may feel compelled to take action based on appearances, and, they may do it out of caring/worrying, or compassion, or weariness of having you to worry about and are hoping to "fix you," a particular nasty family trait that I loathe.

It's just an intuitive impression I have, that you are Alice, in the new Once Upon A Time In Wonderland, in which Alice's father has her committed and later regrets it. Rather it was his new wife putting the idea in his head, but I see one of your son's as the instigator and trying to convince the other sons he's right. --I hope I'm wrong. But, cynic that I am, you know-- Have you ever been deceived by being too trusting or naive? I certainly have. Who hasn't? But I think having nobody to trust as a kid sets some of us up for more of a blindspot in this area; we really need eyes in the back of our emotional heads. I hope I'm serving you well as a pair and as a friend who cares for your welfare.

Please don't go ANYWHERE with any of them, unless you don't mind being taken to a facility and being held there against your will.

This is on my mind lately, so sorry if I'm reading into your situation. You be the judge; you know your sons, and the eldest, best. Trust your gut! It maybe hurts for a reason. What is it telling you. Best to just face it and deal.

Hugs if you'll accept them, @shimmerz. I care about you, as someone I relate to with parents similar in some ways to mine and such a hard life. Again, I truly hope I'm being cynical about your sons.

I'm so sorry your pancreas is diseased. Have you a diagnosis? I know money is tight. I'm worried.

 

[Recovery4Me]

Please don't go ANYWHERE with any of them, unless you don't mind being taken to a facility and being held there against your will.

Muse :hug: :chicken:

Wow and I thought I was a little paranoid!!!:clown: You've just scared the gurl' to death!!!;) But I am now getting out my dusty 'Paranoid and Proud' Tee shirt and considering a sentence to add to the thread- "You know you have PTSD when...";)

 

[Eleanor]

Here is how my epiphany of the end of last year sheds light on this... (Bear with me, it is a bit theoretical but gets concrete pretty fast.

People don't really believe in mental illness like they do physical illness because they believe in physical causation, but not in mental causation. What I mean by that is that they know that sometimes there are physical events beyond our control - (NO, I couldn't have avoided the truck that swerved out of its lane unexpectedly and hit me...) but with mental stuff.... Well, don't people have free will? So can't they just decide to be better?

Yes. Yes people do have free will, but it is not what people generally think, assuming they've given it any thought at all. Which most of them haven't.

So what is free will? (Here is the epiphany part) Free will is just the ability to imagine a future state of affairs and then systematically pursue that end by making choices, and setting up ways to constrain our choices when we know we will have trouble. So free will only makes sense over time. Free will doesn't make sense if we talk about it only in terms of the present instant. When Odysseus has his men tie him to the mast before they knock themselves out so they can sail past the island of the Sirens (who would otherwise overrule their free will and lure them to the island, that they would never leave) he is exercising his free will. He KNOWS he cannot resist the Sirens' call, so he ties himself to the mast. When I arrange to meet someone at the gym in the morning to make myself go (because I know I won't otherwise) I am exercising free will. When I decide to put money away now for buying Christmas gifts in December, I am exercising free will, because I want to pay for the gifts up front. So free will is a process.

So we can't have free will unless we live in a world that is predictable. And we can only freely will things we can actually imagine. If we can't imagine being safe, we are not going to act in a way that will get us there. If we physically can't achieve safety, well, all the free will in the world won't get us there. So sometimes we can will the end, and sometimes it is just up to the laws of physics. Obviously, the more we know the more effective we are in free willing.

In mental illness several things can go kaflooey with free will. Sometimes our perceptions get mucked with - so we may feel like we are pursuing our ends and exercising our free will, but those are NOT in fact CIA agents out to get us. Sometimes our motivational states get hijacked by an emotional system that is malfunctioning (not responding to the environment correctly) Sometimes we just cannot imagine the world that we want. No doubt there are more. The point is that it is not fair to blame people for things they have no control over.

And, just to play Devil's Advocate for a moment.. What do other people owe me, exactly? What obligation are they under? Why -should- they get engaged with a spooky shivering wreck who is clearly ill, and pretty standoffish to boot?

What did I owe that guy who was reaching out for help? Nothing. I didn't -owe- him anything. If anything I owed myself the freedom and time that getting involved with this clearly co-dependent dude would have devoured?

So it kinda sucks, because for the most part, -nobody- owes anything to another. Not really. I don't owe my abusers the time of day, much less support of any kind. Even though they are family

I don't think this is a tangent at all. I think it is directly to the point.

If Kant (one of my favorite philosophers) is correct we owe each other respect for each other's autonomy and benevolence toward each others' legitimate ends. If Aristotle is right, we owe each other (as co-participants in a community, social, cultural, political..) much the same, but he says we should support each other's development of virtue, and healing from vice(limitations.)

In the case of a codependent person or abuser there is no way to help them, or even interact with them to anything past a minimal (polite) extent without harming ourselves, and enabling them. So.. no you don't owe them anything. We are not required to sacrifice our free will or well being on the alter of another person's agenda.

because there is no way to help that person without getting engaged somewhat.

Right! And if we cannot IMAGINE a good outcome for them AND for us, then the best exercise of free will is... avoid them.

They just see a guy who is struggling to do they things they take for granted, and blame him for it.

And it is the blame that is wrong. Compassion and a robust understanding of what free will (and it's operational cousin responsibility) is require us to be compassionate and if we can see a way to support their exercise of their will... do that.

We blame people for voluntarily doing wrong. And some people do that, but a lot less often than doing the wrong thing for other reasons. It is hard to imagine other people's internal lives. It is impossible if we don't try. And a lot of people don't try. I think that is kind of cowardly, but...

 

[Recovery4Me]

n the case of a codependent person or abuser there is no way to help them, or even interact with them to anything past a minimal (polite) extent without harming ourselves, and enabling them. So.. no you don't owe them anything

I applaud the majority of your wonderful post, sincerely. Yet I do politely beg to differ, on this point above as it is a source of personal contention and misinformation for the public which might otherwise encourage a silent choice to watch proceedings of DV, child abuse (or any form of abuse) without intervention by utilizing the properly put in place authorities within the US.

Enabling is not the same as assisting. Sanctioning by silence may be a free will choice but it lacks luster of conscience social or otherwise. In order to produce change within the quality of the human condition, awareness in what safe parts we can elect to assist, must happen. Otherwise ill begotten patterns which are also insidious to mental health will continue to prey upon many core fibers of held institutions and thus perhaps 'silently' be handed down from generation to the next generation.

I am a adult that as a child was brutally conditioned through many forms of abuse to be molded as a codependent. Had someone 'not' reached out to me, had my therapist not assisted in the rerouting of pathways as well as lifting my hope & self esteem...I might not be here to share. Stop abuse by knowing how your voice can safely count.

Thank you for listening. A 12 step CoDA member

 

[Eleanor]

I am a adult that as a child was brutally conditioned through many forms of abuse to be molded as a codependent. Had someone 'not' reached out to me, had my therapist not assisted in the rerouting of pathways as well as lifting my hope & self esteem...

Gotcha. I don't think we actually disagree here. Let's see: I should have been more specific - I was thinking and talking from the perspective of the victim of abuse relative to an abuser, or a person recovering from codependency and someone who is co dependent. So what I meant was people who are abusers or codependent who are not trying to get better cannot safely be reached out to - for sure by those who are abused or codependent and are still suffering themselves. I didn't mean to imply that being co-dependent puts one outside the circle of possible intervention - or even that being an abuser does. When people try to get better we should always help to the extent that we safely can. If we choose to help in a way that puts ourselves at some risk, it is our right to do so and it is often admirable, but we cannot be morally obliged to do so. No one is required to try to help their abusers. Trying to help someone with whom one is co-dependent... is often a recipe for disaster. But other people could. But it doesn't make anyone better or worse than anyone else. We do what we can.

Enabling is not the same as assisting.

You are exactly right. And assisting is very demanding in terms of consciousness and wisdom and presence in my experience. Not everyone can do it where they are. Some people ought not to try. Godspeed to those who can and do assist!

 

[Powder]

Yeah, I may seem paranoid, and I sometimes am. I just know too many people have been put into crisis units who didn't want/need it. My mother-in-law was put inside as a teen by her parents, like "Girl Interrupted." She was also assaulted.

I only have 5 staff, and one of them regrets putting his mom in the hospital against her will. He and his dad tricked her into going with them, and took her there, where she was sedated and admitted, literally kicking and screaming.

My poor staff member said that on that day, the trust between mother and son was broken, and now he and his dad have no way to reason with his mom, who has dementia and refuses care even when she is badly hurt because she keeps falling (in her 70s). She won't go to the ER for any injury, even a broken orbital bone, because "She's Paranoid" they are trying to put her away, again.

Every person I know who participated in putting a family member inside against their will was desperate and thought it was right at the time, and now regrets it. Personally, I think it happens more often than we think. People don't talk about it.

I'm not so much paranoid as concerned that people didn't mention this as a possibility. I'm not saying, "I'm reading their mind and this is it." Rather, keep eyes open and be wary if they suddenly want to take her somewhere, and that's not normal. That's all.

And I said, I hope I'm wrong. But both my husband's grandma and my staff member are the kindest people I know, and they put a family member in care against their will, out of feeling afraid for them, out of their depth.

So, no judgment. I am not saying I dislike Shimerz sons at all or think badly of them. I just know that she's not fully confident they are 100% empathetic and on the same page with her, and for that reason alone, they are in a position to feel more desperate and less inclined to just talk to her openly about their fears for her wellbeing. The fact the eldest called her, which she said is uncharacteristic, shows me the behavior has changed, meaning the feeling has changed enough to change behavior.

I hope the call calmed him, but if not, then I'd be aware that there is an orange alert going on. They were talking about her, and they let her know by "triangular" phone calling. This is a boundary thing, they didn't disguise the fact they were talking about her. I don't really cotton to it.

If the son who saw her later called, that's fine. Not someone else calling. I just think the dynamic isn't ideal, as she's mentioned in other threads and I support her.

 

[Carol H]

We've tried hard to deal with our son's PTSD supportively but he has recently gone over to delusions. He built an imaginary safe world where he is in charge of everything and is protected by various shadow government agencies, God (who has always protected him); communicates telepathically with all these people who read everyone's mind and tell him. Dont even think of pointinf out inconsistencies He's accused me of killing him 10 million times but he's brought back by cloning because he's so important to the new world that's based on Army values and many more bizarre scenarios. How do we approach that without hospitalization?
He also has physical custody of his son and tried to take him to live on the streets where it's 'safer'. Local PD convinced him to leave child w us but there's nothing to stop him from snatching the son anytime. The son is terrified of going w this person who is mostly not his Daddy anymore and wants Daddy back. We do too but we had to change the locks and keep safety plans in effect to protect our grandson. I hate that he's out there but I don't know what else to do. He was forced into VA once 3 weeks ago but released after stabilization; he didn't follow thru with his treatment plan so here we are again.

 

[Eleanor]

@Carol H, Honestly, this doesn't sound like PTSD alone, it sounds like schizophrenia to me.... PTSD doesn't usually "go global" like that... paranoia sure, but not full blown delusional systems....I'm not a doc, but you might ask the docs if they have thought about other dx's.

 

[Carol H]

We understand that and I agree but it seems to have started there from the paranoia. He is a war vet w PTSd and TBi who had several other emotional/mental traumas since, ft hood shooting, roommate died of medical malpractice after being told he was hypochrondiac, etc. his newest world is based on law and order and love so it's hard to get him picked up on the basis of being a threat. And he's so angry we had him picked up before although when he first came out, he admitted he wouldn't have gone on his own. So conflicted its hard. He depends on his son so much I don't know what it will do to him if we can change custody to us but we have to 'man up' as he would put it and do it.

 

[StarChild]

Hi @Carol H, and welcome to the forum. I'd like to know, which official diagnosis from a professional (psychiatrist or psychologist) your son received? Could you tell us, what his diagnosis (or maybe several) is? Because I'm under the same impression as @Eleanor, that this absolutely doesn't sound like PTSD, but much more like a form of schizophrenia. Is he in a steady treatment with a therapist?

 

[Carol H]

I'm not sure where my reply went.

 

[sun seeker]

In my experience it's the exception, not the rule.

I just read this again and realized I didn't say what I meant here. It's the other way around: the ignorance of the general public on this issue is the rule, not the exception. Maybe that was obvious given the content of the rest of my post but I thought I should clarify.