News Can A Suvivor Be Asked Not To Forgive? (eva Kor)

[Kintsugi]

@Lemontree, I realize you said you're leaving this thread. That might be best. We can PC if you want to talk further. But I couldn't just PC you and leave this thread like this, with everyone piling on the "shut the f*ck up" train.

I agree that genocide is part of normal human behavior. It is. It is in the range of normal human behavior, part of the range we never want to admit exists in anyone under the right conditions and pressures.

I agree that societies, cultures, nations, etc. are in real trouble when they take a taboo and say, "This isn't normal. This is part of the Other."

It's even worse when they can say, "This terrible behavior was the product of one bad, sick, unnatural person. This person is the Other. They were made wrong. Everything else is fine. Really. Don't look in the dirty laundry. Look at this person. Look what they did! Just one. One bad, sick, unnatural person."

This happens with PTSD. I see this in the news all the time. A vet returns to civilian life, does not integrate, has a mental breakdown, and then someone dies. And then... the military collectively goes, "There was always something wrong with that one!" Yeah. Of course. Just that one. Nothing to do with the system at all.

It's gotten a little bit better, but it's taken--what?--dozens of these cases for the military to start adding a footnote about increasing mental health services after discharge. The worst thing is when they talk about tightening screening for enlistment. Everyone I know in the military lied their asses off to get in concerning mental health issues, because that's how the system seems to work. At least, those friends think that's how it works, so that's what they do. I read what the criteria was to get into the airforce, all the conditions you can't have, and I'm not sure I know anyone who could get in being honest about their history.

I get that we've known monsters. I get that some people default lie in the range of normal human behavior that is abhorrent. I get that a supporter just disagreed with calling Nazis monsters on a PTSD forum. I get all that. But I disagree with all this nay-saying.

Open discussion is possibly the most major part of prevention of these sorts of mass catastrophes.

I agree that the fact Lemontree grew up and lives in Germany might have a lot to do with the difference in comfortability discussing this topic.

The Germans are so up on their "Let's make sure this never happens again" game that it doesn't surprise me this is not unusual dialogue for the OP.

I'm really sorry this thread devolved this way. PC me if you want to talk, @Lemontree. As a victim of abuse, I have become obsessed with researching what Dr. Zimbardo aptly calls The Lucifer Effect.

 

[Friday]

Peace @Lemontree

You are not to blame for the actions of your grandfathers. Even your grandfathers may not be to blame for their own actions, much less the actions of powers far outside of their control. Where I believe you are running into problems, is that many of us are your grandfathers. We have no distance from the concepts you are struggling with. They are not concepts. They are personal. Very, very personal.

If it helps... Think of it like this: You may be against the death penalty. But if a man breaks into your home, shoots your husband, rapes and murders your two children in front of you? You may still be against the death penalty, but also want him dead. Both convictions may be held at the same time, both may be equally true, but that is a difficult thing for people who have not been there to understand. And it's a harder thing to explain.

Rage & Guilt & Love & Rache? Very complicated.

 

[joeylittle]

I think you might mean, more specifically, "is it ethically/morally acceptable to condemn someone for forgiving monsters - and is the situation different if everyone has suffered at the hands of the same monsters.".

I deeply regret use of the word 'monsters'. By framing it as I did, I was not meaning to say Nazi = monster. I was using Monster as a fill-in-the-blank for ANY group or individual that has done something of a scale where one survivor could choose to forgive while another would get angry at the first for forgiving.

I think I've mentioned before, @Lemontree, that I have a great deal of empathy for how complex Germany is/was, in the 20th century, before that, and now in the 21st.

Again - I'm very sorry for the misunderstanding.

My point was only that we deal with this question as survivors of anything. Is it ok to find peace with the causer of the suffering? Absolutely, yes - every individual is free. Is it ok to have suffered the same thing and be of the belief that your fellow sufferer is wrong to forgive. Of course, we are all free.

Does anyone have the right to win that argument? No. And that's why it's so complicated, so personal.

 

[Deleted member 28812]

I'd really like to discuss this topic via PM.
I am familar with the work of Zimbardo but did not read anything about the Lucifer effect so far. I'd also be intwerested in @joeylittle's findings you talked about before.

Currently I am thinking about buying a book about the Flakhelfer generation they sell at a local bookstore. This was the generation of very young soldiers (12, 13, 14 years old), who served as anti aircraft gunners. When I choose to buy this I'd like to discuss it.

@joeylittle - you don't have to regret using that word and I was not offended by it. I think you have a great deal of respect for the compleity of Germany's past. Funny I actually did not want to discuss the Nazis or Germany in this thread but just wanted to read some opinions about forgiving a perp and I did not want to join the discussion.

 

[anthony]

What is your opinion?

Criticism is just a persons strong opinion. They endured the abuse, they have a direct experienced opinion to give their thoughts.

At the end of the day though, none of it means shit in the scheme of things, because if the person wants to forgive the abusers for what they did, that is her right. Another can criticise it, but they should still respect that she has a right to forgive. Her choice... nobody else.

If she started shoving it down others throats.... sure, the anti-persons have grounds for more directed criticism, but if she isn't, and is just standing her ground for her choice... then everyone else should shutup once they given their opinion, and not try and shove it down her throat either.

I think good on her if she has truly forgiven them and trying to move on with her life without the negativity of blame, fault and such, hindering her momentum to live a better life she wants for herself, without such negative burden.