General Distinguishing CPTSD From Other Things

[Weemie]

If someone is having a schizophrenic, dementia or psychosis episode, they’re kind of… ‘them but not them

I have PTSD with Secondary Psychosis and schizoid. When I am psychotic, I am still me. I am just me in a psychotic episode. All I am is my brain, and my brain is sometimes psychotic and sometimes not. The question you appear to be asking is whether such a person should be held responsible for their actions. To be honest, that's a question for a lawyer, not a spouse.

What's up to you is to determine how much you are willing and able to put up with. Who's "fault" it is simply doesn't matter as much as what actually happens, and how capable you are of dealing with what happens. When I am sane, I can completely understand if others choose not to interact with me because of prior insane behavior. Which has included throwing, raging, screaming, reverting to the developmental stage of a 4 year old, trauma dumping on strangers, attacking people, etc etc etc.

I may not be legally responsible for what I do while I'm insane, but as a human being in relationships with other people, that is less relevant. Whether or not it is my character is not relevant. Are you satisfied in a relationship where someone could potentially act like that for the rest of your lives? That is what you really have to figure out. Some people are fine with that, others have less resilience to it. Both are equally valid.

(Personally, I do not engage in romantic relationships with others for precisely these reasons, but another may not have as much insight, or may be less harmful enough to try.) There are reasons why people do things, there aren't excuses or justifications. Whether I'm legally sane doesn't change the fact that I can be abusive, and it is not fair to suggest that anybody is obligated to endure such behavior.

Likewise, it's up to me to put as much preventative measures in place as possible so that I don't hurt other people whether because of PTSD, psychosis, personality disorder, my "character", or whatever else.

 

[Anon1]

I have PTSD with Secondary Psychosis and schizoid. When I am psychotic, I am still me. I am just me in a psychotic episode. All I am is my brain, and my brain is sometimes psychotic and sometimes not. The question you appear to be asking is whether such a person should be held responsible for their actions. To be honest, that's a question for a lawyer, not a spouse.

What's up to you is to determine how much you are willing and able to put up with. Who's "fault" it is simply doesn't matter as much as what actually happens, and how capable you are of dealing with what happens. When I am sane, I can completely understand if others choose not to interact with me because of prior insane behavior. Which has included throwing, raging, screaming, reverting to the developmental stage of a 4 year old, trauma dumping on strangers, attacking people, etc etc etc.

I may not be legally responsible for what I do while I'm insane, but as a human being in relationships with other people, that is less relevant. Whether or not it is my character is not relevant. Are you satisfied in a relationship where someone could potentially act like that for the rest of your lives? That is what you really have to figure out. Some people are fine with that, others have less resilience to it. Both are equally valid.

(Personally, I do not engage in romantic relationships with others for precisely these reasons, but another may not have as much insight, or may be less harmful enough to try.) There are reasons why people do things, there aren't excuses or justifications. Whether I'm legally sane doesn't change the fact that I can be abusive, and it is not fair to suggest that anybody is obligated to endure such behavior.

Likewise, it's up to me to put as much preventative measures in place as possible so that I don't hurt other people whether because of PTSD, psychosis, personality disorder, my "character", or whatever else.

I happened to be at my laptop when your comment came in, so I'll reply quickly now - but no pressure to respond equally as quickly (or at all)!

Thanks for the reply, and for your openness about your condition etc.

You're completely right, and it's a really helpful perspective to keep hold of.

I think I've learned that more and more as I've gone along, and read people's experiences etc.

Out of curiosity (purely out of curiosity) - how 'aware' would you be during a psychotic episode?
I'm interested to know what that feels like... my dad used to have them, and I could never imagine what the experience would be like.

At the heart of the question - I think - is the idea that 'if someone really has no control over how they behave, and they're being unkind... okay... I can make allowances; but if they're just being deliberately nasty and I'm *presuming* that it's their condition when it isn't, well... that's not okay.

And it helps to have a sense of how to categorize things because... I don't even know how to feel about some of their behaviours -
Should I be angry? Am I allowed to be angry? If I'm angry and they have no capacity for responsibility at that point... why am I angry (and I'd be less angry if I knew that they weren't responsible)? Or perhaps I should grieve it more than be angry - because if their condition takes away their ability to respond as they *want* to respond... that's really unpleasant for them, and my heart goes out to them.

There's a sense of 'I THINK I know them... but I really don't know if I do. Perhaps I know the *real* them underneath their condition, or maybe I'm telling myself stories about their nasty condition, while they're actually just being a jerk.'


My thoughts have moved on a lot since I posted this, so I'm not saying that all of these thoughts are my *current* thoughts, but that's a run down of the kinds of things that have spun around in my mind at different points.


You're right though - ultimately, people just need to decide what they can live with, and that makes some of the other questions academic (though not necessarily entirely unimportant).

 

[Weemie]

how 'aware' would you be during a psychotic episode?

Not very, my ability to form memories during these periods are impaired because my cognitive processing is diminished. I do retain some general awareness after the fact, mostly because I can go back and read the shit I've texted in my nonsense-incoherent state and re-trace my steps through speaking with others -- but during the episode I have almost no awareness, which is why I act crazy. Otherwise, I would never act that way.

'if someone really has no control over how they behave, and they're being unkind... okay... I can make allowances;

It all depends on what they're doing. Personally, I have no expectation that anyone "make allowances" for me whether I am sane or psychotic. While yes, it would be silly to attribute my insane behavior to my character, it ultimately doesn't actually matter if I'm being abusive. You have the right to live in an abuse-free environment regardless of the reason for such behavior.

Should I be angry? Am I allowed to be angry?

You are allowed to be angry at whatever you like. For me, such anger would be more attributed toward the behavior a person can control. Such as: complying with treatment, taking medication, isolating themselves, going to a hospital, potentially giving custody of a small child to someone else until they are capable of not abusing them, etc. Even at my very worst, I had moments of lucidity where I was able to make choices to reduce the harm to others around me.

I would also take a look at the way they behave normally, when they aren't psychotic -- for me, it is important that I reduce the amount of harm that I cause, so I do my best to comply with treatment and isolate myself when things get really bad. Does this person show any accountability for their behavior, at all? If they don't, then that is most likely just their character. If they do, but wind up psychotic sometimes, that's the difference.

Even for me, it's not acceptable to say "well I was just crazy so it doesn't matter what I do!" because either way, another person has to deal with that and it originates from my being. It matters, and it bothers me that I don't have full control of myself all the time. It bothers me when I cause harm, so I do my best to mitigate it when I can.

 

[Anon1]

Not very, my ability to form memories during these periods are impaired because my cognitive processing is diminished. I do retain some general awareness after the fact, mostly because I can go back and read the shit I've texted in my nonsense-incoherent state and re-trace my steps through speaking with others -- but during the episode I have almost no awareness, which is why I act crazy. Otherwise, I would never act that way.


It all depends on what they're doing. Personally, I have no expectation that anyone "make allowances" for me whether I am sane or psychotic. While yes, it would be silly to attribute my insane behavior to my character, it ultimately doesn't actually matter if I'm being abusive. You have the right to live in an abuse-free environment regardless of the reason for such behavior.


You are allowed to be angry at whatever you like. For me, such anger would be more attributed toward the behavior a person can control. Such as: complying with treatment, taking medication, isolating themselves, going to a hospital, potentially giving custody of a small child to someone else until they are capable of not abusing them, etc. Even at my very worst, I had moments of lucidity where I was able to make choices to reduce the harm to others around me.

I would also take a look at the way they behave normally, when they aren't psychotic -- for me, it is important that I reduce the amount of harm that I cause, so I do my best to comply with treatment and isolate myself when things get really bad. Does this person show any accountability for their behavior, at all? If they don't, then that is most likely just their character. If they do, but wind up psychotic sometimes, that's the difference.

Even for me, it's not acceptable to say "well I was just crazy so it doesn't matter what I do!" because either way, another person has to deal with that and it originates from my being. It matters, and it bothers me that I don't have full control of myself all the time. It bothers me when I cause harm, so I do my best to mitigate it when I can.

Thanks for sharing that!
So - would it be like falling asleep, almost?
Things go blank and then you come around wondering how you behaved?

This is a really helpful perspective.

In your examples, are you indicating that it's 'anger which drives you towards a positive outcome', for you?

Yeah - it's interesting.

Some of this is (again) a bit academic now, because I feel I've moved on a lot since I started this thread, but it was interesting to observe myself:

You were talking about 'the way they are normally', and in truth... they could be kinda mean sometimes (though not all the time).

There was a side to them... sometimes made fun of people, or spoke badly about people in ways which - y'know - just weren't that funny (and I'm not even sure if they were meant to be funny, either). Then again, they were bullied a lot at one time, and I guess they might've had other things going on under the surface that wasn't easy for them to live with.

I liked them, and - at the same time - I felt drawn to them in a different way too.
I felt sort of magnetised sometimes, and even if I saw things that I might not like, my feelings just kinda seemed to pull me towards them anyway...

I think at that point, I'd find myself telling myself stories to excuse the things I was seeing.

I sometimes wondered - just in passing - if there was some kind of dissociation going on, or even a kind of 'multiple personality' type thing going on, because they really could change... in mannerisms, sense of humour, ways of being... it was hard to make sense of sometimes.

But this - again - is me telling myself stories.

In reality, they might've just been a bit confusing in general, and perhaps that's all I need to know!

It puts me in mind of a recent quote that I heard "Sometimes, it's only your heart that needs to understand - and if the mind catches up, that's a bonus."

 

[Hedge]

Symptoms first. And talking about the event. There are a ton of clues when I read their post as to whether or not they have PTSD.

If they can write a fluid smooth narrative of the event that gave them ptsd? Pretty often they don't have it.

There are a number of fantastic articles that can explain more than I can here in the Articles section of the forum. Because like a lot of people here, talking about all that stuff........isn't great for me.

Articles

www.myptsd.com

I think it’s possible to identify the moment that PTSD was ignited and even to articulate it (for me this is via writing) but it is maybe the historical PTSD that lies behind the more recent ignited event that remains elusive. And I guess that l avoid talking about the latter (even with my therapist) as it is too much of “it happened to someone else” feeling. I find it excruciating difficult to connect to my feelings as they both scare and humiliate me for l have internalised the actions of others in relation to myself as l was growing up from a young child of 5 years old. Yes, I can talk about things but not the whole experiences that affect me but that is due to my compartmentalising these experiences and events, even though I do not consciously do so.

Speaking with my therapist along certain lines can make me feel physically ill and I feel hot and shake. So we take it gently and laboriously slow. But I will continue to do the necessary work

 

[Anon1]

I think it’s possible to identify the moment that PTSD was ignited and even to articulate it (for me this is via writing) but it is maybe the historical PTSD that lies behind the more recent ignited event that remains elusive. And I guess that l avoid talking about the latter (even with my therapist) as it is too much of “it happened to someone else” feeling. I find it excruciating difficult to connect to my feelings as they both scare and humiliate me for l have internalised the actions of others in relation to myself as l was growing up from a young child of 5 years old. Yes, I can talk about things but not the whole experiences that affect me but that is due to my compartmentalising these experiences and events, even though I do not consciously do so.

Speaking with my therapist along certain lines can make me feel physically ill and I feel hot and shake. So we take it gently and laboriously slow. But I will continue to do the necessary work

Thanks for sharing that - it sounds really tough.

In terms of how it ties in with the original post, I sometimes find it interesting that my ex had CPTSD, but didn’t seem to have the same sense of ‘needing to avoid’, that lots of PTSD/CPTSD sufferers do.

In truth… it almost felt like the opposite a lot of the time… lots of talking about it, and lots of pictures and symbols around their home which were very obviously, directly related to the events that caused the trauma.

I don’t know what that means, but… it’s how it was, all the same!

I’m sorry to hear of the struggles that you’ve had, and I hope things one day become a little easier in those areas… I’m sure it’s unbelievably hard at times…!

 

[Rose White]

lots of talking about it, and lots of pictures and symbols around their home which were very obviously, directly related to the events that caused the trauma.

Idk. I think everyone processes trauma differently according to their personality and conditioning. Confabulation can also be connected to traumatic experiences. So if she was externalizing it (almost in a kind of defensive way) it could have just been her way.

If they can write a fluid smooth narrative of the event that gave them ptsd? Pretty often they don't have it.

This is a good insight! I noticed that about some people that come onto the forum will write something like a a novella of their traumatic experiences and then just wait for feedback and there is a sense that the story/performative aspect is the whole thing. It’s hard to engage with people that aren’t processing. I never thought about that so thank you for sharing!

 

[Anon1]

Idk. I think everyone processes trauma differently according to their personality and conditioning. Confabulation can also be connected to traumatic experiences. So if she was externalizing it (almost in a kind of defensive way) it could have just been her way.

This is a good insight! I noticed that about some people that come onto the forum will write something like a a novella of their traumatic experiences and then just wait for feedback and there is a sense that the story/performative aspect is the whole thing. It’s hard to engage with people that aren’t processing. I never thought about that so thank you for sharing!

Aye, that’s fair enough!

But what’s the difference between the two paragraphs you wrote there?
(I know there is one, I just don’t immediately see it - both seem to be about sharing experience and external processing etc…?)

It’s a bit complicated, this trauma stuff, isn’t it??

 

[Rose White]

what’s the difference between the two paragraphs you wrote there?

Good question! The first is specifically related to what you shared about your ex-partner. The second is related to general trends I noticed on the forum as highlighted by Freddyt.

 

[Weemie]

So - would it be like falling asleep, almost?
Things go blank and then you come around wondering how you behaved?

(Sorry, I didn't see this reply until right now.) Not precisely. I have some awareness, it isn't like being unconscious.

It's more like being half-awake, half-asleep. Cognizant enough to move and talk and form some memories, but things get jumbled up and mixed in with nonsense.

My memories of psychosis are very non-linear, mushy and fantastical. But I can read back what I've written and talk to people who were around me and slowly start to piece it together.

It is not like going blank. It's like slipping into the water before realizing you've hit river rapids.

 

[Hedge]

There seems to be a perception in reading about others interpretation of PTSD that one cannot remember or clearly so as to write / speak about it in a lucid way. However, I disagree. I think what some people can do is that we tell our story (or parts thereof) as something that occurred to another - even though simultaneously KNOWING that we are talking about ourselves. We are like the puppet in a play who is acting the part of a puppet in a play and yet the puppet fails to realize that he or she is that puppet playing the part. So the puppet looks outwards and thinks, "What a life...." whilst missing the point that he or she "Lived that Life...."

And so as we tell our story, we can sometimes tell it so that it comes across as a confabulation of events but yet we tell the truth. And sometimes we can conceive of our experiences as being so distorted as to be unreal. By way of example, I cannot - for the life of me - bear anyone to hold me down or restrain me. At the same time, I can only remember my mum going into a psychiatric hospital when I was 5 and then next I am walking through a park wearing a brown skivvy that an aunt had given me that day for my 9th birthday. All those intervening years I have no memory of, whatsoever. I do, however, have a felt sense of existing within those 4 years and being here now is proof of that existence.

As a child who it were safer to keep invisible vis-a-vis, childhood sexual abuse, neglect, mental and emotional abuse issues, my therapist - after many attempts to unlock my memory occurring during those 4 years of cognitive silence - has decided that it is best we do not go there. And when I say that I hate being held down, restrained or even being unable to remove a jumper that may be too tight to get over my head or to remove shoes - I mean that I go into a complete panic and literally feel that my heart will explode and that I will die. It truly is a most frightful experience.

As there is no one to ascertain the truth of what occurred to me as a child - Are my feelings and thoughts a confabulation, being it totally or partially so? I think not for the body keeps the score. I am very careful to not posit a narrative to this reaction but I do not think that my conjecture as to what may have occurred (given the historical events) is too far of course. It has taken me years upon years to even feel worthy as a person deserving of friends for my dad would THANK my friends for BEING MY FRIEND, right up to the time of his death when I was 30 years old.

I can write these things as they happened so long ago and because my invisibility as a child has distance the child that I was, so far away that he no longer is even alive (of course, he is merely sleeping else these childhood memories would not haunt me). As he awakes, I feel complete fear and a need to run. Maybe that is why is wish him away so that his life can no longer affect me. But of course, I can still be haunted by those no longer around.

Thanks for allowing me to share these thoughts and apologies if they appear too convoluted.

 

[Anon1]

(Sorry, I didn't see this reply until right now.) Not precisely. I have some awareness, it isn't like being unconscious.

It's more like being half-awake, half-asleep. Cognizant enough to move and talk and form some memories, but things get jumbled up and mixed in with nonsense.

My memories of psychosis are very non-linear, mushy and fantastical. But I can read back what I've written and talk to people who were around me and slowly start to piece it together.

It is not like going blank. It's like slipping into the water before realizing you've hit river rapids.

That’s a beautiful set of words at the end there!

Yeah - interesting.

It must be very bewildering at times... can you feel it coming on?

There seems to be a perception in reading about others interpretation of PTSD that one cannot remember or clearly so as to write / speak about it in a lucid way. However, I disagree. I think what some people can do is that we tell our story (or parts thereof) as something that occurred to another - even though simultaneously KNOWING that we are talking about ourselves. We are like the puppet in a play who is acting the part of a puppet in a play and yet the puppet fails to realize that he or she is that puppet playing the part. So the puppet looks outwards and thinks, "What a life...." whilst missing the point that he or she "Lived that Life...."

And so as we tell our story, we can sometimes tell it so that it comes across as a confabulation of events but yet we tell the truth. And sometimes we can conceive of our experiences as being so distorted as to be unreal. By way of example, I cannot - for the life of me - bear anyone to hold me down or restrain me. At the same time, I can only remember my mum going into a psychiatric hospital when I was 5 and then next I am walking through a park wearing a brown skivvy that an aunt had given me that day for my 9th birthday. All those intervening years I have no memory of, whatsoever. I do, however, have a felt sense of existing within those 4 years and being here now is proof of that existence.

As a child who it were safer to keep invisible vis-a-vis, childhood sexual abuse, neglect, mental and emotional abuse issues, my therapist - after many attempts to unlock my memory occurring during those 4 years of cognitive silence - has decided that it is best we do not go there. And when I say that I hate being held down, restrained or even being unable to remove a jumper that may be too tight to get over my head or to remove shoes - I mean that I go into a complete panic and literally feel that my heart will explode and that I will die. It truly is a most frightful experience.

As there is no one to ascertain the truth of what occurred to me as a child - Are my feelings and thoughts a confabulation, being it totally or partially so? I think not for the body keeps the score. I am very careful to not posit a narrative to this reaction but I do not think that my conjecture as to what may have occurred (given the historical events) is too far of course. It has taken me years upon years to even feel worthy as a person deserving of friends for my dad would THANK my friends for BEING MY FRIEND, right up to the time of his death when I was 30 years old.

I can write these things as they happened so long ago and because my invisibility as a child has distance the child that I was, so far away that he no longer is even alive (of course, he is merely sleeping else these childhood memories would not haunt me). As he awakes, I feel complete fear and a need to run. Maybe that is why is wish him away so that his life can no longer affect me. But of course, I can still be haunted by those no longer around.

Thanks for allowing me to share these thoughts and apologies if they appear too convoluted.

This is interesting!

The context of this thread was me trying to piece together the various behaviours of a girl I was dating, and although I feel much better now, I’m still talking it through with a really good therapist.

I just had a session, and today we talked about some contradicting behaviours.

My therapist said “Yeah well - do you see: on the one hand, she was speaking as a very self aware person who knew exactly why she behaved as she did. On the other, from her behaviour… it’s almost like she had no idea how she behaved at all. No wonder you were confused!”

I’m not saying that you’re in any way the same, but what I do see in your post (correct me if I’m wrong), is maybe that there are layers of awareness, and layers of self-awareness - and perhaps that typifies the experience of people who are working through CPTSD and similar?

(I hope I’m not coming off as a smart ass by making that observation, it’s just something that I’m processing, and I wondered if it resonated with you - perhaps so, or perhaps not!)