Don't know how to help a friend, ideas welcome

Weren’t you the one who brought it up, in your update?

It’s not something that enters my own mind, otherwise… along with a shortlist of other issues that people so often struggle with, that I either don’t, or struggle with the 180 version of.

Yep, here it is. In your closing paragraph.

Thank you for asking, here I am referring back to comments by others about co-dependence earlier in the thread.

Secondarily, at the back of my mind I have a comment made by a therapist I was trying out about three years ago who said: "You would go to the moon for her, wouldn't you?" My reply at the time was: "No I wouldn't."

In hindsight it seems to me she was trying to define the issue right there by jumping to conclusions, or at least doing the co-dependence check. That was the same therapist who showed my dead father the middle finger and touched me inappropriately, so I didn't continue.

I hasten to add that opening the matter of co-dependence is extremely helpful and interesting. I thank those here who have done so. Very much appreciated.
 
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This all really strikes me. I can see this from different angles. As I mentioned, I had a long period of being quite helpless in many ways. Not my fault, but definitely my responsibility. If I don't want to live anymore? My responsibility, nobody elses. Or how about - if I don't have the means to be able to do my own laundry,
"can I come to your place to do laundry ?" and not "do my laundry". I can't afford food? "What can I do to help you if you are helping me be able to eat:?"

I am a trained peer supporter - 8 years now. I have been teaching peer support for 4 years. Here is what peer supporters are taught. It is an impactful lesson to those who want to 'help' others. Helping others eats away at their self confidence. It encourages them to believe they can't do things. Instead, peer supporters learn to support people. The difference? Support means encouragement. It means supporting people in finding the tools to do things as independently as possible. Support means caring about people enough to support their autonomy. Support means allowing others to rebuild and supporting their sense of empowerment.

Are you helping this woman or are you supporting her? Are you keeping in mind the impact of all of this help on your friends self confidence? What happens when people need to say no?

There is an awful lot of wiggle room when one thinks about abandonment. That's a big word and fairly dramatic. Not conceding to demands is not abandonment. Supporting rather than helping is not abandonment.
 
Extremely well said, shimmerz. And lovely to see you. :)

Since I have had a deep aversion to being controlled, I also had a natural preference to walk alongside someone in need rather being tempted to try and carry them. I was also lucky enough to have training in this in a sense (physical not psychological) and at a young age.

Doing what feels comfortable to us is not always the most kind thing we can do. For the other person and for ourselves. When we feel empathy for a situation we sometimes want to quench that emotion by saving or fixing. Whereas doing what is right for the person may involve standing back.

I was recently on the receiving end of significant help for the first time as I was medically unable to care for myself in recent years in certain ways. Two people in my life did most of the caring. One walked alongside me and I found him extremely helpful and empowering. One isn't and wasn't able to do that, and I felt worse and worse when on the receiving end of that care. The experience has really amped up my strong feelings about this stuff.

At the same time, I gained a lot from the experience as I, for the first time, had no choice but to ask for and receive help. Had to get my trust demons under control.

This is not a comment on your actions or thoughts, Applecore, and is rather a general discussion on the topic of help.

One thing I have noted is that with healthy help one doesn't feel the weight and responsibility of carrying the person. It isnt our job or responsibility to fix them or the situation. It rather feels a little like loving kindness. Affirming not heavy. That's one of the ways I check if I am in the right place with someone I am helping.
 
This all really strikes me. I can see this from different angles. As I mentioned, I had a long period of being quite helpless in many ways. Not my fault, but definitely my responsibility. If I don't want to live anymore? My responsibility, nobody elses. Or how about - if I don't have the means to be able to do my own laundry,
"can I come to your place to do laundry ?" and not "do my laundry". I can't afford food? "What can I do to help you if you are helping me be able to eat:?"

I am a trained peer supporter - 8 years now. I have been teaching peer support for 4 years. Here is what peer supporters are taught. It is an impactful lesson to those who want to 'help' others. Helping others eats away at their self confidence. It encourages them to believe they can't do things. Instead, peer supporters learn to support people. The difference? Support means encouragement. It means supporting people in finding the tools to do things as independently as possible. Support means caring about people enough to support their autonomy. Support means allowing others to rebuild and supporting their sense of empowerment.

Are you helping this woman or are you supporting her? Are you keeping in mind the impact of all of this help on your friends self confidence? What happens when people need to say no?

There is an awful lot of wiggle room when one thinks about abandonment. That's a big word and fairly dramatic. Not conceding to demands is not abandonment. Supporting rather than helping is not abandonment.

Thank you. I would welcome your direct assessment of what you think about the following.

To recap, we occasionally meet for an inexpensive meal and I tend to pay, because I am earning plenty and she is earning zero. At her request, I launder her clothes; it's me who maintains a boundary about her not coming into my apartment in order to do the laundry herself. It's so that I don't get into situation where I have to negotiate my way out of being an emotional crutch in my own kitchen, without being able to walk away as I would in a café or at her place. I have seen this cooperation as a very minor symbol of friendship at her request, rather than me controlling or infantilizing her. She has reciprocated by helping me with bureaucracy in the local language. I am shortly going away for a couple of months, and may well pay for her flight to come visit half way through. I have told her that getting her washing machine installed (even though she can't afford to get her kitchen finished) is going to be cheaper for her than using public laundries during that time. She's not getting a key to my apartment.

There've been a couple of times over the past year that she has asked to stay at my place for safety due to her stalker, and I have said no. I didn't let her move back in with me after the assault when she said she should for her own safety. Beyond an initial contribution to her lawsuit fees which I made because I've never previously done charity and feel strongly about the sexual assault of women, I don't give her any money.

I don't tell her what to do. I haven't helped her finish her kitchen, install her washing machine or get a bed to sleep on. I haven't tidied her apartment for her. I frequently say I am too busy with work to take a call or meet right away, and then set a time that's good for me. My livelihood comes first.

I have asked her to speak to someone else, especially a therapist or her brother, about her thoughts about 'euthanasia'. I have clearly stated that I won't tolerate complaining, blaming, irritability and dysregulation, and provided literature showing why this is unhealthy for me as well as her. Recently I cancelled a meeting citing my own feelings when she crossed that boundary with an adversarial email about me not being considerate enough. She admitted that she can be hurtful and that she needs to change it, and also asked me to try not to get so hurt. She said she has work to do on improving her communication.

She frequently says she needs help with all those practical matters as well as her mental health; I remind her that only she can rescue herself. Apart from me listening about the current issue with her lawyer and giving my opinion and advice when asked, I am leaving her to fix her situation with her lawyer and I have said so.

That's as honest and accurate a testimony of my conduct as I can give you. Based on the information you have here, I would respect and value your opinion if you would you tell me whether you think I am helping, supporting, rescuing, practicing loving detachment, having weak boundaries, not expressing my feelings or something else not covered by the jargon.

With much appreciation,

Applecore
 
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This is not a comment on your actions or thoughts, Applecore, and is rather a general discussion on the topic of help.

I read it as general and thank you for your consideration. I would appreciate your comment on my testimony above. Don't hold back, I welcome directness as I find it the best way to see new perspectives and then make a choice about whether or not to adjust course.

I also think you need to look at yourself. The need to rescue should be looked at as objectively as you can.

Thank you, and you are right. I have now provided testimony about that above and welcome your direct feedback.
 
She is telling you right here what she wants from the people she feels owe her help. Do you want to be a part of that?

I am willing to be a friend, which I believe is helpful enough. With regard to the kind of help she says she would ideally have, I don't provide it and I have clearly stated that I am not going to.

I have been totally helpless. Somatic trauma replaying will do that to someone. Run of the mill things had my body respond in crazy ways. I couldn't go out on my own for 8 years. Someone needed to hold my hand in case I bolted if a young child cried. I used to drop on the ground, frozen. Outside. Anywhere. It was a horror.

But here is the thing. A person still needs to try. Small steps.

She keeps trying many things including very many different kinds of expensive therapy and medical treatment that I have enumerated elsewhere on this thread, but little or zero progress is made. She thought finding and hiring an advocate to prosecute her attacker and obtain a restraining order would be such a step. It hasn't worked out.

She apparently is handing all the people she knows responsibility if she takes her own life. That is a horribly abusive thing to do. Do my laundry, clean my apartment, come out with me because I need to talk to you even though you have your own things you are dealing with?

Sounds to me like straight up manipulation.

Is this entitlement?

I don't clean her apartment and I don't always talk with her when I have my own things to deal with. I have set boundaries in that she doesn't get to live with me, she doesn't get my money and she doesn't disrupt my work. As I've explained elsewhere, the laundry is the thing I am willing to do and it will end in a week as I am going away for two months.

I agree that talking about euthanasia, which I have read as suicide, is abusive. I would guess most of us on this forum have had suicidal wishes (full disclosure, I'm one of the many of us), and so we also know it's also a feeling of desperation and despair. About two weeks ago, I challenged her on whether by euthanasia she meant suicide, and commented it would wreck her family (her brother and his two daughters) in the same way that the two suicides in my immediate family wrecked mine. And so she better talk with her brother about it instead. She said she had not been implying suicide when she spoke of euthanasia. Since then, she has stopped talking about it.

Yes you are right, she can attempt to be manipulative, and she can have an attitude of entitlement. I am seeing some flickers of her attempting to change.

I consciously stand my ground. She doesn't take my time, space or money unless I choose to give it to her.

Thank you for being an ally, thank you for your wise and considerate questions. I am glad to read about your recovery, and salute it.

Applecore
 
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Hi Applecore, great to see you having such healthy boundaries!

I'm currently in a similar situation, helping a friend who's in a total mess... And I'm getting so angry about how manipulative and messed up it all is... I'm currently putting in a ton of boundaries... The situation is really new (couple of weeks) and I don't know this friend very well (only met them this summer) so it's a steep learning curve, to figure out what on earth is going on... Your example is really impressive and gives me something really good to aim for - thank you!
 
Hi Applecore, great to see you having such healthy boundaries!

I'm currently in a similar situation, helping a friend who's in a total mess... And I'm getting so angry about how manipulative and messed up it all is... I'm currently putting in a ton of boundaries... The situation is really new (couple of weeks) and I don't know this friend very well (only met them this summer) so it's a steep learning curve, to figure out what on earth is going on... Your example is really impressive and gives me something really good to aim for - thank you!

Nice to hear from you and thank you. I am reading (and listening to) a fantastic self help book (for the second time straight away, it's that good). It may help with this. What's constructive is that it shows how a significant person's apparent manipulativeness comes from weakness (and possibly their own trauma) rather than strength or power. It's about parents, but regularly states the observations and methods can be applied with other people too:

Recovering from Emotionally Immature Parents: Practical Tools to Establish Boundaries and Reclaim Your Emotional Autonomy
Audible Logo
Audible Audiobook – Unabridged​


 
Or, maybe it's the truth and was given out of frustration.

I really and truly don't know, and have no way of knowing. But, your friend DOES sound like a pretty challenging client where it might be impossible to meet her expectations. After all, you have trouble meeting her expectations too.

Part of the reason I say that...... I'm a farrier. (I shoe horses and trim their feet, etc.) Over the years, I've had a few people try really hard to tell me how to do my job. I'm pretty good at my job, so that's annoying. But normally I listen, explain what I'm doing and why, and things move along. Once in a great while, someone persists to the point that I can't stand it. Then, I usually offer to lend them my tools, so they can do the job themselves. Sometimes that gets the point across. Sometimes it doesn't. If it doesn't, I leave. Job unfinished and also (usually) unpaid. It's worth it to get away from them. I generally don't return their calls in the future. Why would I?

I don't know that your friend is one of those people, but I can see the possibility so maybe the lawyer has her reasons. Meanwhile, I can see where the lawyer situation is going to make presenting her case a lot harder. I'm kind of surprised she needs her own lawyer though. Seems like the state should be prosecuting someone for stalking and assault & the victim shouldn't have to hire a lawyer.

Thank you for your supportive input, it's hugely appreciated and helps me keep going at this difficult time. I hope I can do the same for you or pay it forward on this forum going forward.

A little more context from me may help clarify the situation. As I've mentioned a couple of times on this thread, the country where I live has very different professional standards and norms of personal conduct to the Anglophone world. My friend is local. I have paternal heritage here and being here makes me feel closer to my deceased father who is buried here. That's why I tolerate some of the cultural discomfort, and there are comforts also. But being an isolated foreigner or immigrant here can be a mental health challenge for precisely cultural reasons, the behavioural norms are surprisingly different and it's one of the things I've had to become aware of in order to adjust.

I have dozens of examples of shocking unprofessionalism from people we would normally expect to be trustworthy. One anecdote. I once went to see a lawyer because I'd been sent a gigantic electricity bill (like four months local average wage), which the electricity firm said in a letter was based on their own mistake of having misread the meter readings for years. I handed the lawyer the letter, and he replied to me, without joking, that the size of the bill must be because I am running a brothel in my apartment. He added for good measure that my surname reminded him of a criminal he had heard of.

Red flagging right away, I calmly asked him to hand me back the letter. To which he screamed at me at the top of his voice, a massive tirade about why it is my obligation to trust him. I had to repeatedly ask him to hand me back the letter while he continued his rant at me. For us from Anglophone culture, this unbelievably bizarre behaviour would be considered emotional dysregulation at the very least.

Here, it is unsurprising, because about a third of the so-called professionals one meets are like this, from city hall to your local pharmacy. I have other anecdotes that are worse than this one. Imagine the mental health task of adjusting to that, as an isolated Anglophone foreigner accustomed to service providers understanding why customer service is in their personal interest.

Apparently state lawyers here are useless in criminal cases, which I can well believe, which is why she went private. Her lawyer found out the stalker is himself a lawyer. He has hired one of the best attorneys in the business for his defence (probably at friend price), who would probably destroy a free state attorney who doesn't care about his own job. Even in the US, the celebrity divorce lawyer James Sexton says: "There is nothing more expensive than a cheap lawyer."

My friend's lawyer was approached by the Opposing Counsel a couple of months ago with the offer to start talks about an out-of-court settlement. The way it works here is that her lawyer has a financial incentive to drag out the case as she charges by the hour, so settling would stop her income.

The lawyer contacted my friend to tell her she had unilaterally declined the offer, on the grounds that stalkers who have already attacked once are sexual predators with an addiction who need to be prosecuted in order to be stopped. My friend was indeed angry that her consent for declining settlement had not been requested by her lawyer. Her lawyer didn't take kindly to the complaint, and their relationship deteriorated.

When my friend explained that she doesn't have sufficient resources for all the additional hours the lawyer wants to charge top rate for, the lawyer resigned. I find the lawyer's conduct unethical, particularly after reading this: What happens if an attorney fires their client?

Yes, my friend can be difficult, and that doesn't stop the world she is in being difficult.

It's reasonable to ask why I put up with my friend, if she can be so difficult. Again, I can illustrate it with an anecdote. Last week I took her for a cheap meal and during our very pleasant, funny, interesting conversation I mentioned I'd had a tough call with my mother.

"I could already see that, from the micro-expressions on your face," she said, with an affectionate and supportive smile.

Nobody else knows me like she does. We all need this bond, as you know. Sure, I have the option of going off and finding that bond with somebody else, and so can we all when the going gets tough. But when the bond is there, it is strong. And so the front of change is that we need to learn to adjust our selves to our environment, including setting boundaries and communicating effectively.

The time may come when yet another one of her melt-downs just goes too far, and I walk away. A step has already gone in that direction as I don't have her live with me any more. For the time being, she is my kindred spirit, my companion, the person who both attacks me and makes me laugh. We have 11 years of shared memories and amazing experiences of joy and wonder, an infinite number of hugs, smiles and laughs out loud. Because I am coming here to unravel problems, by focusing on them I may not have said these positive things enough.

Getting a little amateur psychoanalytical now, as I have told her myself, to some extent I experience my dead father in her. For me, he was just as affectionate and as dysregulated as she is. I chose not to live with him as a child, partly because of his dysregulation (which I put down to undiagnosed PTSD, carried over from being a child in an urban war zone witnessing starvation, killing and rape, and getting maimed in an explosion, as some of his earliest memories).

Personally my hunch is still that she may well have traits of a personality disorder such as borderline, and I am keeping self-care front of mind. Finding the right way to keep telling her that I can't rescue her and won't help her more than I can, is now my task. I doubt that I am getting the words right.

When she asked me for help again yesterday she reminded me about her abusive male boss firing her four years ago, her subsequent physical illness, her incapacity causing lack of income, her mother's relatively recent death, her father's spiralling debts and deteriorating mental health, her attacker and now her lawyer walking away from prosecuting him after sabotaging the out of court settlement.

When again yesterday she told me she needs help, I asked her what she wants from me. Her reply was basically that her previously lucrative career as a senior corporate manager is over and she needs someone tell her what to do about it because she urgently needs income, she is effectively bankrupt at age 42 with massive healthcare costs. I said I don't know her field, so I can't advise.

So she said she needs far more dependability from me, and that could start with me finding her a new lawyer. I said, "I don't know what to tell you," and "that's not something I have the skills for," and "only you can solve the problem." She really didn't like that and took it as uncaring, self-interested abandonment. She may well have re-experienced her own family dynamics in that.

Trying to be self-aware, I think my tone was too blunt and uncaring at that point. I could have wrapped it up better with more kindness, sympathy and empathy. I would like to learn how to communicate this better, so all ideas welcome. But I said what I said.
 
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"I could already see that, from the micro-expressions on your face," she said, with an affectionate and supportive smile.
This could just be me, reacting based on old experiences, but that kind of makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. So, she's THAT aware of your reactions to things, and the feelings that go with them? Then I would imagine she might also be aware of how you feel about her.......IDK, her kind of demanding part in the relationship? Isn't that a reasonable possibility? And, right there in that moment, she gave you something she thought would feel like a reward, didn't she? "An affectionate and supportive smile."? Because, if you're going to expect someone to go to bat for you again and again, you've got to give them something to keep them coming back. And, if this is how you get by in the world, it ought to be something that doesn't cost you much. Like a smile and a kind word.

Like I said, I've had some experiences with people who get by in the world by using other people like a vampire. Maybe I'm over reacting, but I'd be inclined to run fast and far. That kind of person is generally pretty good at finding another patsy anyway.

So, if the legal system there doesn't deal well with people like dangerous stalkers, how do people with the resources to do so handle them? Sending someone to break bones to get their attention, maybe?
 
This could just be me, reacting based on old experiences, but that kind of makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. So, she's THAT aware of your reactions to things, and the feelings that go with them? Then I would imagine she might also be aware of how you feel about her.......IDK, her kind of demanding part in the relationship? Isn't that a reasonable possibility? And, right there in that moment, she gave you something she thought would feel like a reward, didn't she? "An affectionate and supportive smile."? Because, if you're going to expect someone to go to bat for you again and again, you've got to give them something to keep them coming back. And, if this is how you get by in the world, it ought to be something that doesn't cost you much. Like a smile and a kind word.

Like I said, I've had some experiences with people who get by in the world by using other people like a vampire. Maybe I'm over reacting, but I'd be inclined to run fast and far. That kind of person is generally pretty good at finding another patsy anyway.

I very much value your excellent observations here. I take your point and it has given me something very important to think about. Thank you.

I would only caveat that she isn't getting much out of me other than companionship; if she was rinsing me for money, or a job or even just a roof over her head, she would have a material interest in playing me. She is emotionally unstable and life events appear to have at least in part exacerbated this; I suppose instability can sometimes appear as manipulativeness.

So, if the legal system there doesn't deal well with people like dangerous stalkers, how do people with the resources to do so handle them? Sending someone to break bones to get their attention, maybe?

With regard to the legal system here not dealing well with people like dangerous stalkers: People with the resources hire the most expensive lawyers, who tend to get their way. Breaking bones is certainly another scenario I can envisage, and many brothers, cousins, uncles and even ex-boyfriends would culturally be ready to take up that task. They haven't in this case. A few months ago I even offered to have a word with the stalker, with two male friends standing either side of me, to ask him to leave her alone. She declined, saying that would be unsafe for me.

Most importantly though, in this culture this kind of thing is extremely rare. Oddly enough to me, danger on the street including sexual danger, is almost unheard of here. Women commonly go running on their own, at night on the street, or even solo through the woods (I once on my bike saw a female colleague doing exactly that and didn't stop to greet her out of consideration for her being alone, she later laughed that I was being over-considerate). That almost doesn't happen in the UK or US in my experience of female friends there.

Here there is next to zero homelessness and no drug problem. Men tend to be pretty chivalrous, despite often being politically incorrect (e.g. sexist jokes and comments). It's all rather old school, maybe in certain ways like the Anglophone world in the 1950s.

Stalking is so unheard of here that it would probably be either confronted by the woman verbally or even physically, or ignored by the woman, or maybe she would move away if she could afford to. The criminal legal system is often unreliable for regular people here and I would guess it would often be avoided as too much hassle for too little gain.

Am curious, because I appreciate your insight: what was the reason or thought behind why you asked, how do people with resources handle such issues?
 
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