Don't know how to help a friend, ideas welcome

[Applecore]

I have a campaigning personality type (ENFP https://www.16personalities.com/enfp-personality) and I guess for some people our enthusiasm can come across as presuming to know better, which we don't mean at all.

Caveat: I don't take Myers–Briggs Type Indicator / 16 personalities too seriously and don't treat it as anything conclusive, professional or scientific. It basically confirms that the extroversion, optimism and emotional traits I have are something that will be relevant in relationships, negatively or positively.

 

[Sideways]

Caveat: I don't take Myers–Briggs Type Indicator / 16 personalities too seriously and don't treat it as anything conclusive, professional or scientific

If understanding your own, or another’s, personality traits is something you find interesting or helpful, the Big 5 and HEXACO models are probably the 2 with the most scientific backing. They’re very similar to each other, and of all the personality indexes, seem to be the most universal across cultures.

 

[Applecore]

I am up early with insomnia after she had another big meltdown last night. She'd called me saying it was to ask for my advice. As a precaution I requested we go for a walk instead of talk in my apartment. I told her I wasn't feeling great myself and had had some bad news earlier, and so I asked her to talk to me with care. She agreed for me to walk her from my place to her place (a 15 mins walk), where I could pick up a sweater she'd borrowed and another bag of her laundry to do.

About 10 minutes into the conversation there was something that she didn't like about what I said. It was a busy pavement / sidewalk after dark in the city centre, plenty of people walking by.

She sat down right in the middle of it, crossed legs, head in her hands, with another apparent attack of exhaustion (she has chronic fatigue syndrome, thyroid disease causing cognitive impairment, brain fog and other issues). She completely shut down and cried.

People stared at the strange scene as they walked past. After about a minute she got up and shouted at me through her tears: "If I die next year I don't want anyone to dare to cry at my funeral because I will write a letter that I want read out which will say I was telling everyone I need help and none of you helped me."

So yes, to those on this forum who asked me if that's what she wants, she is certainly saying she wants help.

I didn't engage, and calmly walked her home. Piles of clothes strewn across her floor, around a makeshift mattress to sleep on, she shouted "this is how I live!" Still crying, she couldn't find my sweater and said she wants to be alone, didn't hand me her laundry, lay down on the mattress and carried on sobbing and moaning.

I then walked back to my place physically feeling the shock in my body, like I had just been attacked. People on this forum are saying I have been supportive and risk being co-dependent, yet she is accusing me of neglect.

Thankfully I have a gym routine every second day and heading in to a session shortly. That will burn off some adrenaline. Greeting some familiar calm faces will help.

 

[Movingforward10]

That was difficult.

Sounds like you did great setting out some boundaires (which she pushed and can't adhere to). And really great that you left (and without her laundry).
And great you are doing some self care now.

She is going to accuse you of neglect. Because you're there. And she can't help herself. It's easy to blame you. It's soooo much harder for her to take personal responsibility.

But.....

What do YOU need right now?
As sad and as awful as it is that her life and state of mind is how it is, you can't save her and she doesn't seem that motivated to help herself.
With that in mind, what do you need?
A break from her? Or maybe not going to her home or not meeting in public or not meeting at all? Maybe just speaking so you can hear how she is if you feel a break is too much?
Do what you can live with and what is right for you. Because what is right for her, she can't see or action and you can't solve.

 

[Applecore]

That was difficult.

Sounds like you did great setting out some boundaires (which she pushed and can't adhere to). And really great that you left (and without her laundry).
And great you are doing some self care now.

She is going to accuse you of neglect. Because you're there. And she can't help herself. It's easy to blame you. It's soooo much harder for her to take personal responsibility.

But.....

What do YOU need right now?
As sad and as awful as it is that her life and state of mind is how it is, you can't save her and she doesn't seem that motivated to help herself.
With that in mind, what do you need?
A break from her? Or maybe not going to her home or not meeting in public or not meeting at all? Maybe just speaking so you can hear how she is if you feel a break is too much?
Do what you can live with and what is right for you. Because what is right for her, she can't see or action and you can't solve.

Thank you for the perfect response. I'm now curious what has brought you such wisdom and kindness. Survival and self-help? Training and practice? Both?

Sounds like you did great setting out some boundaires (which she pushed and can't adhere to).

The advice she was asking for yesterday was whether I thought she should go a on a trip her friend just invited her on. She felt it could be a morale boost and a form of addiction management, in that she is not vomiting any more and needs to compensate with other things (mostly yoga), and this could be another. As well as a relief from the continued horror of seeing her stalker who has physically assaulted her and forcibly entered her home. But as she is bankrupt and penniless she would have to borrow the money for the trip from her brother, yet she can pay it back soon because of a refund she is due. After her meltdown and when I got home I recommended by text that she go for it. I confess that was in part because if she didn't go, I expect she would blame it on me - because of our conversation last night and the aftermath, which would allegedly be my fault.

And really great that you left (and without her laundry).

Guess what. While I was at the gym this morning she texted to say she's left my sweater at my front door (and thanked me for the use of it); plus her bag of laundry. She asked me to do it today because she is going on the trip tomorrow. I've done it, and smirked at myself for the psychotherapeutic irony that I am washing her dirty laundry in private.

She is going to accuse you of neglect. Because you're there. And she can't help herself. It's easy to blame you. It's soooo much harder for her to take personal responsibility. [...]

she doesn't seem that motivated to help herself.

You're basically right. At the same time, I feel a responsibility to present you with the accurate testimony as I see it, and try as best I can not to tell myself flattering or consoling stories or inadvertently solicit them from kind people heroically offering support, such as you. Because the fact is she has actually spent her entire life savings on attempting to help herself. Expensive courses of therapy, expensive psychiatric treatment including medication, expensive psychology-of-communication training, expensive interpersonal workshops, expensive developmental retreats. She says that at least she has become a non-practicing addict, a non binging/vomiting bulimic. I praise her for that unreservedly. The fact is also that none of this has turned her life around. She still has blind spots, dysfunctional tendencies, ghosts of her past still haunting her. In my view she probably has physical brain damage from the bulimia, which not only makes her incapable of writing emails but also effects her decision-making, perception and mood. I feel I must be clear with you about that.

What do YOU need right now?

In very many ways I now have an extremely fortunate life that I am very grateful for. I survived decades of intense trauma from abuse, much distress (probably multiple breakdowns), countless episodes of suicidal ideation and have come out of it much recovered and resilient. So mostly, I need what I actually have:

Satisfaction after exercise at the gym. Meeting the new cleaning lady there on her first day and welcoming her into our community, and feeling her gratitude in response. Enjoyment of the sunshine looking up at the sky this morning as I type this to you. Receiving your friendly and insightful input. A breakfast that is both tasty and healthy. Satisfaction that I found a handyman yesterday who will arrived in three hours to re-paint my wooden windows before the winter so they don't get rotten. A physiotherapy session this evening that will help release the stress out of my back. (I've long had prolapsed discs - yes indeed the body keeps the score.) Personal space and privacy all day as I live alone and work at home. Happy email correspondence with clients who pay me well, sustain my interesting work, shower me with gratitude and have just invited me to a fancy lunch at their office. Friendly correspondence with my good natured cousin who is bereaving her lost pregnancy, in fact an abortion which has consumed her with agonizing guilt. Friendly correspondence with my elderly mother who gets medical test results today. Planning to host them both. Looking forward to two months of relocation this winter to a sunnier climate where I will work remotely because I can (that's self-care to avert my winter blues or "Seasonal Adjustment Disorder").

If asked if I want something more than all that, I would probably say more and better friendships. Yet I've chosen the expat life and with that often comes isolation, so I understand that we get what we've chosen. Thinking about this further, I would like to have a healthier spine to avert handicap, immobility and pain in old age; so I could look into getting ergonomic furniture to work on and increase my daily exercise routine.

Thanks again.

 

[Applecore]

Further to the above, I can see now that I haven't comprehensively communicated on this thread precisely what help she is asking for. To my mind, that's a consequence of:

(i) me declining some direct requests

(ii) her complaints, accusations and demands that are so unreasonable that I see them as an abstract expression of her emotional state and I am not dealing with them as if they are a straightforward practical matter.

So for example, in the case of (i) as far as I recall back in May she angrily accused me of abandoning her after her stalker physically assaulted her and broke into her home. This is on the grounds that I did not invite her to stay with me for her protection. Although at the same time she didn't request sanctuary with me, she expected me to volunteer it.

My reasons for not doing so is that she had chosen to move out in January, and in April I had arranged the flight and accommodation for her to join me on a long-haul, bucket list vacation on which I felt emotionally abused by her and then a marked lack of gratitude for the initiative.

On returning she reiterated that we shouldn't be together. Then within days the aforementioned criminal incident took place. She initiated a lawsuit to obtain a restraining order against the perpetrator and for several reasons, some of them personal, I paid the first tranche of legal fees. When last month she specifically asked to stay over because she was overwhelming by the lawsuit and the continued presence of the stalker who she fears will attack her again, I declined citing my own emotional needs.

In the case of (ii) she is constantly complaining that she is mentally incapacitated and wants full dependence in pretty much every issue: tidying her apartment, having meals prepared for her, having groceries bought and delivered, having her kitchen put in (she has been living without a kitchen since January), having emails written for her, having bills paid and full financial dependence.

She does not specify that she wants all that from me, but it seems implied that when she is telling me all this she is expecting me to step up one way or another. I don't. I do her laundry and that's it. I see that as a minor act of kindness or very small act of charity.

Apart from that we do a lot of talking, which sometimes feels like a tendency for her to unleash on me a binge of horror about the next thing that has gone wrong her life, a monologue of complaining, pessimism, negativity and doom and me trying to find a way through it. All of that feels to me like a scream for help. On other occasions she can come across as a very different person: light-hearted, caring, sweet, loving, considerate, funny, affectionate. Hence my references to Borderline on this thread.

She still has a load of belongings in storage in the spare room at my place, and yesterday came round to collect something for her trip with her friend today. After the meltdown on the street two days ago it was as if nothing had happened and she had nothing to apologize for. I didn't raise the subject. Instead she told me I ought to think about my the wording of my text messages more carefully, because they can hurt her feelings and my last one had. I thought myself that this was audacious, in that she could have apologized for her melt down instead. Perhaps at the back of her mind she felt accountable or embarrassed, and so she came in with a grievance to mask it.

I said that I felt she'd misinterpreted my words and also that it works both ways when it comes to words hurting. To which she replied that I can speak up about it too. I replied that I am not sure if I can, due to the consequences, and that I feel she is emotionally unstable. She agreed that she is emotionally unstable and it's not going to change any time soon. She added that at least she's not out of contact with reality, with a smile. We laughed, but there was sadness in the laugh.

Shrug. Physiotherapist last night said my body is very tense. Good that she loosened it up. Good that I didn't drink yesterday. I love a drink but am very fortunately not addicted to substances, pure luck I guess. Handyman did a great job on my wooden windows, thanks to that they have a few more years in them yet.

I won't see her for three weeks now as she is gone for a week and I will be gone for two weeks on a long-scheduled trip to my country of origin just before her return. No doubt she'll be calling and texting. At her request, I called her this morning to make sure she is up early for her flight. She was cheerful and asked how I am; I honestly said it could be better and that my body feels tense and the physio confirmed it. She said she was sorry to hear that and encouraged me to do something kind for myself like a bath or a nice movie. In my mind, her kind words jarred. She just called me again from the airport to say I am loved and appreciated.

I will do something for me this weekend. Maybe an expat meet up, although these are often boozy pick-up events which I am not in the mood for. Maybe a cinema.

In conclusion I can add a reply to the questions in this thread asking what I want: I want to communicate with my friend more effectively. I want her to understand how I feel. I want to not feel attacked by her, whether that's a case of reforming my behaviour or effectively achieving a change in hers (I understand the latter is not what we're meant to hope for, according to the literature). I want her to get better. I want her to become financially independent. I want her to be happy. I want to be happy. I want to remind myself that in many ways I am already very content.

 

[Applecore]

@Sideways

Thanks for this. Hadn't heard about HEXACO. Miserable weather today and feeling unusually under the weather. Perhaps also due to recent drama and also my self-indulgence on this thread. I still wonder what is the different between honest healthy venting and 'narcissistic' unhealthy complaining. (Sometimes wonder whether my CPTSD got so bad in adulthood on after realising thinking and talking about how messed up childhood was.) Anyway, have gone to a café for background company and for an uplift broke my cake abstinence which had lasted a month. Completed the test online.

 

[Applecore]

I recall now that she said something else when I last saw her, and for some reason I omitted it above. It was on that last visit when she showed up at my place to collect something the day before her trip, which was after the melt down on the street. She said:

“I love you dearly. It’s just the extent of the help I need, and that I am not getting, is what makes me so very upset. I am totally helpless.”

It seems to me now that she was trying to justify or at least explain her melt down. But in turn I ask myself whether she has a legitimate point under the unacceptable expression of it, or whether I should not be trying to empathise with such behaviour.

I Googled around the subject and found this: The men who leave their spouses when they have a life-threatening illness

Is that me? Or is she the dependent, trying to pull me into a co-dependent role?

Either way, once again, I am being accused by her of abandonment, neglect and selfishness. I don't think the issue is that I am running around her and controlling her like a co-dependent would, because I am not.

I think the issue is that I am keeping a certain amount of distance, and she doesn't like it precisely because she is unable to depend on me. And she wants to, because she is unable to function, is incapacitated by diagnosed illnesses, has run out of money and continues to be stalked by her attacker who has already struck once and is facing criminal charges. Meanwhile I am healthy and relatively wealthy. And I continue to mention to her about my need for self-care.

I am still listening to Codependent No More by Melody Beattie. An issue I have with a lot of psych books like this one is that they deal with extremes such as full-blown personality disorders reserved for the minority with psychiatric cases rather than the traits of problematic behaviour that we may all have from time to time.

Consequently I do not fit Beattie's pure definition of a co-dependent because I don't tick all her boxes. But I am willing to accept that in my personality I like to give people friendly, heartfelt and helpful advice when I can, as a kind of love-language; I recognize that is one of the traits of co-dependency and I will try to reign it in.

Trouble is, Beattie says it is better to instead ask what the addict needs, rather than risk telling them what to do. Based on my experience I can already hear my friend's reply to my question about what she needs: "Everything."

Based on my experience of her, I expect she'd say she wants me to bankroll her and have her move back in while she continues to be unemployed, dump her complaining on me, blame me, criticize me, and have ongoing meltdowns that are allegedly my fault.

Yet I feel bound to her like my own flesh and blood. Thousands of hours of laughter, hugging, affection, good company, joyous life experiences and genuine loving are not something I have accounted for here. They are a large part our story.

Question. How do I explain to her that what I am doing is not abandonment, neglect, stinginess, cruelty or selfishness but in fact an attempt at what the literature calls "loving detachment" ?

 

[scout86]

Question. How do I explain to her that what I am doing is not abandonment, neglect, stinginess, cruelty or selfishness but in fact an attempt at what the literature calls "loving detachment" ?

Do I remember correctly that she's been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder? If that's the case, you can probably explain till you're blue in the face and she's STILL not going to see things the way you do. That diagnosis applies to a group of people who are pretty complicated to deal with. (At best!)

Anyone who is capable of planning a trip and executing those plans successfully is NOT "totally helpless".

The therapist I saw was good at his job. He was smart, creative, and didn't give up on people. (He's retired. I hope he's still like that!) But there was a type of client he preferred not to deal with. That was the group of people who didn't want to help themselves. Even when they show up for therapy, they're more interested in others helping THEM than they are in learning how to help themselves. You really can't help someone like that. At best, maybe you can find a way to trick them into wanting to help themselves. (A job for a professional!)

 

[Applecore]

Do I remember correctly that she's been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder? If that's the case, you can probably explain till you're blue in the face and she's STILL not going to see things the way you do. That diagnosis applies to a group of people who are pretty complicated to deal with. (At best!)

Anyone who is capable of planning a trip and executing those plans successfully is NOT "totally helpless".

The therapist I saw was good at his job. He was smart, creative, and didn't give up on people. (He's retired. I hope he's still like that!) But there was a type of client he preferred not to deal with. That was the group of people who didn't want to help themselves. Even when they show up for therapy, they're more interested in others helping THEM than they are in learning how to help themselves. You really can't help someone like that. At best, maybe you can find a way to trick them into wanting to help themselves. (A job for a professional!)

Thank you so much for your questions and insight. Very much needed today. Feeling isolated and haven't seen the sun for a week because of lousy weather.

It's just my point of view that she presents as having signs of borderline, and I am no professional. She is a recovering diagnosed bulimic and the two disorders are known to often go together.

Excellent point you make that the facts show she is not totally helpless. Thanks to the point you make, I am also reminded that she is demanding my help after having moved out.

When after her melt down last week she asked me whether I feel I have done enough to help her medical situation, I put it to her that she had started talking about leaving me four years ago (only after which her medical problems kicked in), and did so several times before moving out in January. In response she said she's not going to listen to my bullshit and hung up.

I am asking myself now about the extent to which I have allowed my reality to be massaged. Love is blind. We fell in love 11 years ago and about 5 years ago she changed. I must admit the bond made early on is still there.

I must now state for the record (and for my sanity) that since April she has alternatively been talking about both (i) fantasizing about euthanasia and (ii) wanting to have a baby. I have not put to her the inherent contradiction in those two propositions because I would expect to achieve nothing other than another melt down.

All the while she is occasionally monitored near her home by her stalker. It's not a fiction, the criminal case is underway, he targeted her vulnerability when she was staggering home at night with chronic fatigue syndrome, broke into her home and left her with bruised arms, and he gave a statement to the police. Just this morning I was wondering about providing sanctuary by letting her stay in my spare room when I am away for two months this winter. But I am in two minds, both reluctant and feeling compassionate and personally loyal to a dear friend who is in a bad way.

So how does a professional trick someone into wanting to help themselves?

 

[abovedown]

I don't think you are able trick another to change permanently and I would not go building a relationship in the hope you will trick the other to change. It's not right towards her or towards you. At this point it's more likely a)you are going to accept her (w or w/o necessary boundaries) as she is b)or walk away. Your choice and you are the only person who can do it.

 

[scout86]

So how does a professional trick someone into wanting to help themselves?

I have no idea. LOL My personal best guess is that you'd have to set it up so they could see a personal advantage to solving their own problems rather than picking other people who will try to do it for them. I never had any experience that suggested "being rescued" was a thing that was actually possible, so I find that mind set completely mystifying. The thing is, for the people who use it (and there are plenty of them out there) it seems like it works really well. You'd have to show them some way it doesn't work that makes changing seem worth the effort, I guess. So, IDK. I guess I've arrived at a place where I can tell myself "not my problem" with at least some success.

Let me tell you about the episode that started the process of opening my eyes to the "helplessness scam". My ex-husband & I had sold a horse to a woman and were taking payments. She'd apparently paid more for the horse than her husband was ok with, and wanted us to promise not to tell him what she'd paid. So I already figured there was a problem. (I told her I wasn't going out of my way to tell him but I wasn't going to lie for her either.) She started out making payments. Then she got behind, and there was always a story. But, she was paying SOMETHING at least. Then, one evening, at the end of what had been a long day for me, she showed up with another story instead of the money she owed. The story involved "she didn't have the money because she got stopped for speeding, with their kid who had cerebral palsy in the care, and they got taken to the jail, and it wasn't her fault, and her husband really didn't steal the car, it was a misunderstanding....." While I was listening to her, it occurred to me that telling the story was easy for her. TOO easy. Because, maybe, she did it all the time?

I kind of went off on her. Told her we were running a business and I couldn't go to the electric company with a sad story. We needed the money (in cash at that point) or the horse. We got paid. Remarkably quickly. Had the same thing happen a few months later with someone who'd been boarding a horse at our place. Something similar happened with the divorce. My ex went on about how he "couldn't live without me" "didn't want to live without me" etc. His kids were worried about how he'd get along without me. I stopped and had dinner with his 3 kids (from his first marriage) on my way out of town. I told them I didn't think they should worry, that he'd be remarried within a year. He was. To a woman who was between his 2 daughters in age. A few years later, I had the same thing happen with a significant other. I wanted to move. He didn't want to move. I suggested we go our separate ways. He got dramatic. I left. He was married to someone else within a year. (Her first husband was an out of control alcoholic who died from his alcoholism. Her next husband was a big improvement. He & I are still friends, but he's someone else's problem now.) It's a skill set and a life style. Some people have learned that the way to handle a problem is to find someone else who will try to solve it for you.

Obviously, I don't know your friend and I have no way of knowing where she is on the spectrum of people who use other people to get by. A bunch of those people have legitimate problems, no doubt about it. There's a difference between having a problem like fibromyalgia and struggling to deal with it and having that problem and expecting other people to take responsibility for helping you deal with it. Asking for help is fine. Guilting someone for not helping is a whole different thing.