Don't know how to help a friend, ideas welcome

@Charbella

@Ecdysis

@Midnightmoon

@Movingforward10

@Rose White

@Sideways

@somerandomguy


Your questions, observations and advice here last month are extremely appreciated. I want to say a big thank you for being dear friendly strangers, to whom I would like to return the kindness directly or at least pay it forward.

As mentioned elsewhere am in my late 40s and since childhood have been through survival of complex trauma, reform and personal growth: so am familiar with the basics of concepts such as co-dependence, rock bottom and the long dark night of the soul. I have been asking myself about my own part played in the situation we've discussed and any connection it may have with my childhood.

In the meantime I did some research. I've watched Youtube videos on co-dependency, trauma, narcissism and adult children of alcoholics. I've now read the first half of The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma by Bessel van der Kolk.

Having now also read the first half of Codependent No More by Melody Beattie, it emphasises to me that even stronger boundaries for my friend/partner, and stronger assertion of my own needs, is a good idea.

Yet it is a relief to read that I don't fit what Beattie defines as core traits of the archetypal codependent; namely a person who controls, infantilizes and makes things worse for the addict through their 'help'. I've never policed her eating disorder and nothing in my life shows I get any thrill from having power over other people. On the contrary, I could be criticized for having been too independent, individualistic, detached, uninvolved, negligent, stingy, selfish and a failure in the social expectation among much of society (women equally as men) to be a provider for my woman.

I have a detail to add. A few months ago, after moving out of my place into hers, my friend/partner was attacked by a stalker who entered her home as she was opening her door; he left her with bruised arms. She called the police and because he waited outside they interviewed him and took his details. She commenced a lawsuit to obtain restraining order. She asked to move back in with me and I declined, but I gave her money towards the legal fees.

Last weekend my friend/partner said she was being called from a hidden/private number and stalked on the internet, she asked to stay over at my place. Knowing that was a major crossing of a boundary since she's moved to her place, and also dreading another of her monologues of catastrophising, doom, blaming and complaining, I said no, because I was having a hard time myself.

The next morning I was physically shaking. I don't know whether this is because I had forced myself to say "no" to the request for help from my friend/partner which didn't come naturally. Did I force myself to say no because she is bulimic on the grounds that I mustn't be co-dependent? I don't know whether this is because she is in physical danger, and that works like a vice of guilt on my head to say "yes". I really don't know.

Because I also don't know whether the shaking was because the Kolk book about trauma I am reading reminded me what is my first memory of asking my mother for something. It is a memory of asking my mother not to kill my father. He was lying in front of her car shouting at her to go ahead and kill him as she revved the engine with a maniacal smile on her face. I was about four years old and in the back seat, and leant forward over the front passenger seat to plead with her. I know because one of the reasons she has said she divorced him was that it was better for me than if she murdered him. I also know that because she then joined a cult (these days known as a social addiction) to reprogram her brain from potential murderer into dissociated zombie, which is who I grew up with as my primary caregiver. Her father and brother were alcoholics, and she is a rape victim. There was a co-dependent trait forced on me as a child, but I don't believe I am fully or very co-dependent or a classic case of the term.

This is what I meant by telling my friend/partner that I am having a hard time myself. And so I am letting her get on with her stalker, her brain damage, her chronic fatigue syndrome, her chronic systemic inflammation, her endometrioses, her tetany, her brain fog, her cognitive impairment, her poverty, her mental illness and her yearning for euthanasia (read suicide) by herself, and I am declining her specific request for my help.

I sent her a link to social services I found.

I did call her brother, by the way, and said I was calling about his sister. I liked the idea of letting him know that I felt his sister needs to know about our love, and leaving it at that without telling him about risk of suicide. I thought that I could run an idea past him that we could at least work together to help her finish her kitchen, so that she no longer depends on me as a laundry service, and so that perhaps he could express his love in a way he knows how, and in a way that she would understand. Before we even got to that he said he was busy and would call me back two days later. That was a month ago.

After I declined my friend/partner's request for help by staying over with me, again she barraged me with complaining about her life. I replied: "I am in such a bad state that I do not have the mental strength to listen to any complaints today."

I got a reply from her which read: "I want you to know that I feel like I am falling and don't know what to do. And I don't feel like I am complaining, I am just describing my state."

I asked her to leave me in peace, which is unusual for me. Came her reply: "I am so sorry to hear about your state. Did I do something wrong?" Again I asked her to leave me in peace.

After a few days of no contact later, she came to my door and left some laundry of mine she'd accidentally taken with hers, plus a card sending me her love and a pastry. Yes, that's a slim, beautiful bulimic leaving me a pastry. Yet she did actively listen to what I had told her, and in response she did something nice.

In conclusion, I think it was good that I spoke up for how I feel rather than react to her complaints about her life and how she feels. But as shocking for me as it is to ask this, was it also good that I didn't respond to her plea for safety from a predatory, violent man? Does that make me not co-dependent and 'lovingly detached'? Or does that make me uncaring, selfish and cruel?
 
Last edited:
I'm sorry if you've already shared this @Applecore but I can't remember, are you getting help for you. I get that her financial situation means she is currently unable to access therapy, but from reading between the lines it seems yours might be different. The ability to navigate this with love and care, which is very much how you seem to operate with her, as well as some boundaries and wants of your own (currently on the back burner!) might prove really useful to you in making a way for yourself, and how she might fit, or not, within that.
 
I'm sorry if you've already shared this @Applecore but I can't remember, are you getting help for you. I get that her financial situation means she is currently unable to access therapy, but from reading between the lines it seems yours might be different. The ability to navigate this with love and care, which is very much how you seem to operate with her, as well as some boundaries and wants of your own (currently on the back burner!) might prove really useful to you in making a way for yourself, and how she might fit, or not, within that.

Thank you for the thoughtful question. No I am not currently getting any help for me, if you mean counselling. That's why I came here, and can confirm with gratitude that you are already helping. It did briefly cross my mind to call a counsellor about all this. But then I immediately recalled how very disappointing and even counter-productive therapists have been when I dabbled between about 12 and 4 years ago.

Probably the best outcome was getting my mother in the room for family counselling in which I started by acknowledging her trauma and then holding her to account for her part in causing mine. Dad was dead so alas I couldn't go through that with him also.

I had about three or four solo sessions with two different therapists, each with different schools of treatment. I talked through all my memories, traumas, and survival methods, without exception, to these therapists whose best input was to listen but they also messed up very badly.

The man was unable to cope as well as I am with my horror stories (what I mention above is not a fresh memory and just the tip of the iceberg); he said he was lost for words and gave me the silent treatment, so I fired him. The woman was the opposite, so interested and fully engaged with me that she touched me inappropriately (which is not what I was paying her for) so I fired her. Neither were trauma specialists, so I can own that as me having made incorrect hiring decisions.

That said, at the time I was not seeking long-term readjustment to trauma but immediate, tactical, current crisis support, something that in my experience therapists aren't good at because they are looking at the long-term, strategic big picture.

As a child I learned to rely on myself, which (as self-indulgent as it may sound) is what has made me resilient and enabled survival. I have been accused of that making me self-contained to the point of selfishness. All my partners have accused me of failing them in my socially-expected man's role as their provider - quite the opposite of the caricature of the codependent.

Even so, I like being friendly to strangers and like the friendly input of strangers such as you, so thank you once again. It's very kind of you to mention "some boundaries and wants of your own (currently on the back burner!)".

Can you tell me how they come across as being on the back burner? I ask because I feel my declining the plea for sanctuary from my female friend or partner or ex-partner from a violent criminal male predator, even amid her debilitating health conditions, was me setting a boundary and taking care of wants of my own to the point of utter heartlessness.
 
Last edited:
Thank you for all these points - I will give them some thought.

Right off the bat, the one about our atypical relationship: I raised it because one possibility in my mind, possibly inaccurate, is that because we've not gone no-contact and we're not in other relationships, maybe she wants me to rush to the rescue. To take her back in, let her live off the rent from her apartment, and for me to attend to her every need in mine, and to become entirely dependent on me. I don't feel able to do that (at least not yet), especially because over the past four years she told me several times we shouldn't be together, which I agreed with and she finally acted on it. What became her monologues of complaining, plus her agitation, negativity, inaction and rages are also something I would not want to live with. Being able to meet up every other day for a nice chat over lunch and a walk in the park and sitting on a bench in each others' arms enjoying the leaves in the sunshine is a far more pleasant experience. We clearly still have a lot of love and a strong bond.
With all due respect you might want to exercise some boundaries with you ex. It's all fine snd good to stay friends after break-up but how can you have an honest friendship if you already secretly wonder whether she is looking to make you essentially her servant and keeper? Of course if you both want the same then that's your business. If you are not looking arrangement like this you might still need to work out your feelings regarding your break-up, what let to it, and what do you want from your new friendship from her? What is acceptable for you and what is not.

You seem like a caring and good friend. Remember ti take care of yourself too!
 
As a child I learned to rely on myself, which (as self-indulgent as it may sound) is what has made me resilient and enabled survival.
Hyper independence is a very classic 'symptom' so many of us share, in my very non expert opinion it seems to swing both ways. Either people that need constant reassurance, connection, 'togetherness' to the point in having very little self motivated to help themselves with their own lives, or the people that are so hyper independent that the very thought of asking someone for a light favour sends them running in the opposite direction. All the insecure attachment stuff playing out in the here and now.
That said, at the time I was not seeking long-term readjustment to trauma but immediate, tactical, current crisis support, something that in my experience therapists aren't good at because they are looking at the long-term, strategic big picture.
Your previous experience with therapist sounds awful, I'm sorry you had to go through that whilst trying to find support. There are different therapy modalities, some are very good at the here and now skill building stuff, and some are better for depth trauma. If some Ts know you have trauma history they'll run with that even if you only want the here and now stuff. Some Ts are more prepared to work with reducing symptoms.

When I went into therapy for the first time I wanted here and now immediate 'help me solve this problem and I'll be out of your hair by the end of the month' type therapy. Nah, they could see my difficulty was as a result of complex trauma, and no amount of sticking plasters was going to hold it. The depth stuff does help, but it's not quick...
Can you tell me how they come across as being on the back burner? I ask because I feel my declining the plea for sanctuary from my female friend or partner or ex-partner from a violent criminal male predator, even amid her debilitating health conditions, was me setting a boundary and taking care of wants of my own to the point of utter heartlessness.
I think you did really well with maintaining a sense of self and remembering your own needs here. It's definitely not heartless, why do her needs and wants trump yours? You have provided so much emotional and practical support, you cannot be everything to one person.

In general how I read this thread is you being so very aware and understanding of your friend/ ex's needs to the extent of self abandonment. That's not a healthy dynamic and will result in you being even more exhausted.
 
maybe she wants me to rush to the rescue.
It's been my experience that there are people out there who use this as their primary way of making their way through this world. They are adept at finding people who they can use to meet their needs. What they give back, as their part of the relationship, is the feeling that you're helping and are, therefore, important. The first time I ever walked away from a person like this, I was really worried that they'd crash and burn without my help....... And they found another person to use as a resource so fast it was amazing. It's gotten easier to walk away, believe me. Maybe these days I'm too cynical, IDK. And, I guess it's possible I'm wrong about your friend too. Reading through your posts, I can't help but wonder how accurate her various diagnosis are. My ex-husband was such an accomplished liar it took me years to realize I had no way to know if he was being truthful without independent confirmation of the facts. I've become a big fan of "independent confirmation of the facts".

You mentioned her brother got off the phone pretty fast and never called you back. Obviously I don't know him any more than I know your friend, but I'd like you to at least consider the possibility that he's not a jerk he's just tired of her. My brother's second ex-wife is a clinical social worker. She's told me she's really sure he's got narcissistic personality disorder. My own T, who never met my brother, said the same thing. If someone called me today and asked me to help my brother somehow, the first thing I'd do is warn the person that my brother is good at presenting as a nice guy, until he's not. The best way to deal with him is to not deal with him at all. No way would I involve myself in his life again. Maybe there's a situation where I might try, from a safe distance, but I doubt it. Never up close, absolutely not. Sounds to me that all you know about your friend's relationship to her family is what she's told you. If that's the case, it could be she's lying. Or, spinning things to suit herself. (I'm not sure narcissists think of it as lying. Seems more like they feel their own version of the truth is most important and facts and alternative views shouldn't matter.
I had about three or four solo sessions with two different therapists, each with different schools of treatment. I talked through all my memories, traumas, and survival methods, without exception, to these therapists
That's covering a lot of ground awfully fast. I saw my T for a number of years and there was a lot we didn't talk about. In fact, at least once he told me there was stuff he didn't WANT me to try to talk about because he felt it would just be re-traumatizing at that time. Don't give up on the idea of therapy. Sounds like you were dealing with people who weren't very good at their job. It IS hard to find a good T. Sometimes maybe impossible, but such a thing exists and can be a lot of help. It can be very helpful to work through ways trauma is effecting your life now and how to handle things better, even if you don't talk about the past very much at all.
As a child I learned to rely on myself, which (as self-indulgent as it may sound) is what has made me resilient and enabled survival.
My T used to say there weren't just people who are independent and dependent. That some of us are what he called "anti-dependent". That brings it's own set of challenges. I kind of suspect that one of those challenges is that anti-dependent people are very appealing to narcissists. Think about it "I don't need anybody, i can take care of myself just fine." So, the narcissist doesn't have to worry about being asked to give anything to the relationship other than their own needs and wants.
 
With all due respect you might want to exercise some boundaries with you ex. It's all fine snd good to stay friends after break-up but how can you have an honest friendship if you already secretly wonder whether she is looking to make you essentially her servant and keeper? Of course if you both want the same then that's your business. If you are not looking arrangement like this you might still need to work out your feelings regarding your break-up, what let to it, and what do you want from your new friendship from her? What is acceptable for you and what is not.

You seem like a caring and good friend. Remember ti take care of yourself too!


That's partly the issue: it's not clear that we are still partners or if we are now exes. What has happened is that she chose to move back to her apartment and some couples do live like that. It also felt practical because I work from home and she is also at home due to illness, which sometimes makes solitude preferable. Our places are just a walk away from each other and I even know people who've told me the arrangement sounds ideal. We hug and kiss and don't have sex and some couples do live like that. We don't have sex with other people, let alone go on dates with others. We still tell each other we love each other. We speak a great deal, and we are each others' confidants about almost everything. We still experience joy together in each others company. We are kind to each others' families as always. We talk about future trips together and other dreams of the future. It's a very blurry kind of relationship indeed. Some may say we ought to draw a line somewhere, some people may say we don't have to.

You ask a great question: how can I have an honest friendship if I already secretly wonder whether she is looking to make me essentially her servant and keeper. My answer is, I do wonder but I can't be certain that is the case. Most couples seem to wonder about money issues, expectations and motives. Especially outside the Anglophone/Germanic world (and we are located outside it), I believe many women expect men to be their provider, not least because their salaries are lower due to workplace sexism. She does have unemployment, inability to work due to debilitating illnesses, lack of familial or state support, and impending running out of money; I am certain she would prefer to have her health back and to have a fulfilling career again. But I also know that she doubts that outcome is even possible, and I am starting to also. In her shoes, it would be natural for any of us to hope for a miracle in the form of a rescuer. I have never been her rescuer. In fact I could be accused of having been neglectful and a failure in the socially expected man's role of being a provider.

Thank you for asking me to take care of myself. Part of the issue is that I wonder if I have cared too much about myself and too little about her. At the same time, I feel I have legitimate issues with some of her responses to me, especially her anger (which is also one of the stated symptoms of her illness). This I am very eager to protect myself from, and thank you for reminding me to do so. Living apart but very nearby already helps with that - providing some healthy distance and personal space, in my view.
 
Last edited:
Hyper independence is a very classic 'symptom' so many of us share, in my very non expert opinion it seems to swing both ways. Either people that need constant reassurance, connection, 'togetherness' to the point in having very little self motivated to help themselves with their own lives, or the people that are so hyper independent that the very thought of asking someone for a light favour sends them running in the opposite direction. All the insecure attachment stuff playing out in the here and now.

Your previous experience with therapist sounds awful, I'm sorry you had to go through that whilst trying to find support. There are different therapy modalities, some are very good at the here and now skill building stuff, and some are better for depth trauma. If some Ts know you have trauma history they'll run with that even if you only want the here and now stuff. Some Ts are more prepared to work with reducing symptoms.

When I went into therapy for the first time I wanted here and now immediate 'help me solve this problem and I'll be out of your hair by the end of the month' type therapy. Nah, they could see my difficulty was as a result of complex trauma, and no amount of sticking plasters was going to hold it. The depth stuff does help, but it's not quick...

I think you did really well with maintaining a sense of self and remembering your own needs here. It's definitely not heartless, why do her needs and wants trump yours? You have provided so much emotional and practical support, you cannot be everything to one person.

In general how I read this thread is you being so very aware and understanding of your friend/ ex's needs to the extent of self abandonment. That's not a healthy dynamic and will result in you being even more exhausted.

Thank for the very supportive and wise input. At 48, I believe I have now hugely improved my situation over the years through various means, one of which was a bit of therapy now and again. I have an open mind, although I am a bit sceptical, about whether therapy is what I need right now.

If you are familiar with the Young/Schema diagnosis, with my last therapist around 3.5 years ago my result came up as the so-called "happy adult" type which seemed to have impressed the therapist. I doubt I would have had that result ten years ago. On the 'Big Five', for what that's worth, so-called "neuroticism" about 12 years ago was my highest trait, and now it is my lowest. I have been through all of my experiences with several people and I know my triggers for rumination and intrusive thinking, which had became so torturous that suicidal ideation became the fantasy relief.

Somewhat humorously, I liken having to talk a therapist through it all again on a drip-feed of one session per week for a few months would be like telling a successfully non-drinking alcoholic to go back to the bar and have one shot per week for a few months.

I am uninhibited and do not hold back: I could binge an account of my life story, warts and all, in a single 12-hour session. (In fact, this is probably one of the reasons why the that "silent treatment" therapist mentioned above couldn't cope.) I'm not saying that I know it all: I'm signed up to the idea that none of us can see the back of our own heads, which is what good therapists and friends are for.

why do her needs and wants trump yours?

Only in the sense and to the extent that the needs of a genuinely ill and genuinely vulnerable and incapacitated person trump a relatively healthy and relatively robust and capable person. Most of us are surely happy to be kind and helpful to those in need to a certain extent. And that boundary is the important one here, I guess you'd agree?

In general how I read this thread is you being so very aware and understanding of your friend/ ex's needs to the extent of self abandonment. That's not a healthy dynamic and will result in you being even more exhausted.

I am glad you have alerted me to this and it makes me think. I want to ask myself to what extent am I flattering myself in my self-presentation here. I mean for example, I have not paid a penny of her vast medical bills. I did not get involved with the renovation of her apartment. I've done nothing to help her father, who is in as much trouble as she is. I've focused on my lucrative job, and self-care like strictly regulating alcohol and physical exercise. Although I paid for one long-haul for her this year and took her to another continent in order to lift her spirits, I do also go ahead and travel by myself when she cannot. Of course I have my reasons for all this. I am now trying to portray for you my unflattering or 'shadow' side, very deliberately.
 
It's been my experience that there are people out there who use this as their primary way of making their way through this world. They are adept at finding people who they can use to meet their needs. What they give back, as their part of the relationship, is the feeling that you're helping and are, therefore, important. The first time I ever walked away from a person like this, I was really worried that they'd crash and burn without my help....... And they found another person to use as a resource so fast it was amazing. It's gotten easier to walk away, believe me. Maybe these days I'm too cynical, IDK. And, I guess it's possible I'm wrong about your friend too. Reading through your posts, I can't help but wonder how accurate her various diagnosis are. My ex-husband was such an accomplished liar it took me years to realize I had no way to know if he was being truthful without independent confirmation of the facts. I've become a big fan of "independent confirmation of the facts".

I agree with you about people like that and there's a perfect portrayal in the character of Blanche Dubois in A Streetcar Named Desire. But the diagnoses here are real as I have seen the documentation myself. I've also seen the vomit in my toilet, as a consequence of her bulimia; an illness which causes brain damage and is associated with Borderline PD and various other issues. I assume her many physical illnesses are mainly a consequence of what bulimia has done to her body, including her brain. She says she has stopped vomiting; I cannot know whether that is true or not.

Rather I think maybe she wants me to rush to the rescue because she is now in extremely deep trouble and actually doesn't know how to help herself. She's tried, and spent much of her savings of therapy, personal development courses and private healthcare - but it hasn't worked out.

I also think she doesn't now how to help herself due to gigantic lack of self-confidence going back to a lack of love and support from her parents. I mean literally she believes her now deceased mother never wanted or loved her, and didn't even hug her let alone play with her as an infant - and yet oppressively controlled her every move and forbade her any freedom. It's tragic, but one of the things I am truly proud of, and feel loved by her for, is her comment: "Before I met you, I didn't know how to be affectionate or how to be funny." And she became capable of a genius wit, capable of being full of hugs and loving phrases which have made me feel loved.

That said, you are on to something about the fear of letting someone find their way by themselves, because we think they're unable to. On balance I think she would work something out, but in that scenario she would never forgive me for what she would perceive as my abandonment in her time of need. From her point of view she is dying, broke, and has a stalker (who broke into her home and left her arms bruised, the court case continues) - all at once.

You mentioned her brother got off the phone pretty fast and never called you back. Obviously I don't know him any more than I know your friend, but I'd like you to at least consider the possibility that he's not a jerk he's just tired of her.

I don't think he's a jerk, I think he is just as traumatized by his family as she is, but copes in a different way. His style is avoidant (dissociated?) and inhibited except for his obsession with taking care of his own kids, to compensate for not having received enough care himself. In my book, it's a jerk move to say you'll call back and then not do so, but he's generally a nice guy. Yes I can also see he doesn't want to get dragged into looking after his sister when his parents should have, and maybe indeed he's a little tired of the drama. But there is drama and death, and I continue to believe he has the risk of his sister's suicide.

My brother's second ex-wife is a clinical social worker. She's told me she's really sure he's got narcissistic personality disorder. My own T, who never met my brother, said the same thing. If someone called me today and asked me to help my brother somehow, the first thing I'd do is warn the person that my brother is good at presenting as a nice guy, until he's not. The best way to deal with him is to not deal with him at all. No way would I involve myself in his life again. Maybe there's a situation where I might try, from a safe distance, but I doubt it. Never up close, absolutely not. Sounds to me that all you know about your friend's relationship to her family is what she's told you. If that's the case, it could be she's lying. Or, spinning things to suit herself. (I'm not sure narcissists think of it as lying. Seems more like they feel their own version of the truth is most important and facts and alternative views shouldn't matter.

I'll leave full-blown NPD diagnosis to the qualified proponents of the DSM. I'm wary of calling someone 'a narcissist' because the term has become massively over-used in the past ten years or so, just like 'neurotic' became over-used in the 1980s. So many exes, politicians, bosses and spiritual leaders get called narcissists that it almost goes without saying.

My hunch is that narcissism is a spectrum or a bit like an organ that all of us have, myself included, to greater or lesser degree. I think it's more useful to talk about traits of narcissism, and I've mentioned earlier in this thread that I do perceive traits of 'vulnerable narcissism' in her (I would also tick boxes for her having signs of Borderline and Bipolar). I would immediately say that I have probably had traits of narcissism in my life, and in principle I may well do now. My suicidal ideation very many years ago may have had a narcissistic element, in that I was unable to see any hope outside myself, because all I was thinking about was myself.

Who isn't self-absorbed when they are especially ill or unlucky? Who doesn't feel like they've got very special, almost supernatural bad luck when they're traumatized by one tragedy after an other than nobody else seems to have? Isn't it understandable to fantasize about greatness when things get really bad? And what about the experts out there who say that depression and narcissism can be related? Part of what got me out of my personal hell was to ask these questions of myself, and remind myself that in spite of everything I still had legs, eyes, ears, etc; and am better off than those who don't. So I was born into hell and grew up in hell, but a butterfly landing on a flower still makes me smile, and that may have saved my life. And so yeah, I project some sympathy for her.

I do have the experience of cutting someone in my extended family out of my life totally. I don't know if they were a narcissistic, a psychopath, a sociopath, or whatever, but they brought my life into a whole new meaning of hell. Cutting them out prompted them to send flying monkeys at me, so I had to cut those out too. Consequently, I have no contact with my entire paternal family. That had the emotional effect of me having wiped them all out, and it sent me into even further depths of hell. But I got out, and it's alright now.

That's covering a lot of ground awfully fast. I saw my T for a number of years and there was a lot we didn't talk about. In fact, at least once he told me there was stuff he didn't WANT me to try to talk about because he felt it would just be re-traumatizing at that time. Don't give up on the idea of therapy. Sounds like you were dealing with people who weren't very good at their job. It IS hard to find a good T. Sometimes maybe impossible, but such a thing exists and can be a lot of help. It can be very helpful to work through ways trauma is effecting your life now and how to handle things better, even if you don't talk about the past very much at all.

My Christian friend says go to Church. My polyamorous friend says try swinging. I say no thanks to both of them, because I know it's not for me. Long-course therapy seems to have worked very well for you, and I salute you for it, but I must say I remain sceptical about it for me. As said in one of my previous posts, I have actually done a huge amount of work on myself, and part of that process was with a bit of therapy.

Part of the explanation is that my deceased father was a therapist, so I was around it my whole life. He was also emotionally abusive, and had many unresolved issues of his own, to the extent that he de facto turned me into his therapist as a child. A year ago I met with his boss, who confirmed for me what I already knew: "For your father, being a therapist was his preferred mode of treatment."

I believe most therapists are in it for that reason, and that is no bad thing at all. Rather what I am saying is that with pretty much every therapist I meet, they get very uncomfortable about how much I can see of them right away. One was unable to cope with the potential transference of my therapist father being one of my abusers, before we had even got started. But the main point is that I feel that I have effectively been through a lot of it already, and I have found other routes to relative contentment also.

My T used to say there weren't just people who are independent and dependent. That some of us are what he called "anti-dependent". That brings it's own set of challenges. I kind of suspect that one of those challenges is that anti-dependent people are very appealing to narcissists. Think about it "I don't need anybody, i can take care of myself just fine." So, the narcissist doesn't have to worry about being asked to give anything to the relationship other than their own needs and wants.

This is an utterly brilliant, dazzling, profound insight that you have made here. It is something I have never thought of: that because I am rather emotionally self-sufficient it could be a perfect match for someone who lacks empathy. Thank you. I have much to think about here.

To be fair, she has made so much effort at self-improvement over the years in the realm of therapy and personal development. There are times when she certainly does try to connect with my emotional needs in an certain way. It's sometimes noticeably in an analytical, perhaps even quasi-professional or intellectual way. It's at odds with the anger, hostility, complaining and blaming when she is at her worst. It's different to her affection, playfulness, supportiveness and lovingness when she is at her best.
 
Last edited:
A few weeks ago @somerandomguy and @Movingforward10 rightly cautioned about going to the brother of my troubled friend to confer about her situation (against her wishes) and to encourage him to get more involved (a lack of family support being one of her fundamental grievances about her life).

In the meantime, I've been thinking through further comments on this thread that I ought to consider psychotherapy myself, and I've responded that while I'm a believer in therapy in general I'm sceptical that it's necessarily going to be particularly helpful right now for me.

Since then I've recalled that response from @somerandomguy and @Movingforward10 to the idea of approaching her brother was the same as my response to the person who advised me to go to her family, back in March. Because indeed, I had not come up with the idea myself.

The irony is that it was the advice of a psychotherapist. This person was my late father's colleague and has over 50 years of professional experience, was a close friend and disciple of one of the pioneers of psychotherapy who most of us here have probably heard of, and he wrote the book on it that most psychotherapists will have read.

His advice to me stemmed from my question to him about how one can help someone we care about to stop being so angry. He said that ideally the angry person needs to want to change, because usually they are getting some kind of validation out of that emotion. But then he added what the anger usually comes from is a lack of feeling loved, especially by parents, so if that feeling can be reversed then the anger can decline.

He then specifically suggested I go to my friend's father to tell him he might change her life by robustly communicating and demonstrating his love for her at long last.

I replied that she would be furious with me for going behind her back, and I myself would feel it would be a kind of betrayal of trust. I also explained that her father seems to be a lost cause, and may well be incapable of understanding the idea. That's let alone him participating in it even if he did, because it would for him be a sort of admission of blame or responsibility for her feeling of being unloved, which he is probably unable to make. It was then some weeks later that it came to my mind that her brother might be able to help instead.

I can see here the important element is that ideally the angry person needs to want to change. But I am now struck that the psychotherapist's advice could easily be misinterpreted as encouragement of codependence.

In turn, I can see that this observation could be interpreted as my own egocentric self-flattery because it selfishly serves my stated scepticism about psychotherapy. In my experience, most psychotherapists say they are not there to give advice or make choices for other people should do, and then go ahead and do so. That said, this was a social meeting not a therapy session. And now I am irritated by my own smartarsery, which is one of my my flaws, along with token self-deprecation and failed attempts at humour.

Oh well. She came round last night offering a hug, having brutally bitten my head off twice last week, once storming off and once hanging up. That was a peace move which I accepted and thanked her for and said it was heroic. I told her that I cannot tolerate her rage any more because it makes me feel so bad, and asked her to try to be a hero next time before she expresses her rage: that saying she is calmly walking away for some air would be better for both of us.

I told her that I believe she is addicted to complaining and raging; it is no longer 'letting off steam' to someone who'll listen, but rather the production of steam that is burning her. I reiterated that anger is what killed my father and that I experience my father in her. As much as I adored him, I couldn't live with his anger; as much as I adore her, I cannot live with her anger. I reiterated that I believe she is angering herself to death, and that for me my self-care has to come first. In the conciliatory mood she happened to have been in last night, she accepted it all. Until the next time.

I confessed to not getting communication right, too often. I can come across as a smartarse, blunt, harsh, patronizing, defensive, prickly, flippant, judgemental, disrespectful. I should learn to package what I am trying to say more tactfully.
 
Last edited:
I can come across as a smartarse, blunt, harsh, patronizing, defensive, prickly, flippant, judgemental, disrespectful. I should learn to package what I am trying to say more tactfully.
I don't know about the packaging. Maybe a reasonable place to start would be to wonder about the reasons you come across that way in the first place. Is there a reason that some part of you feels the need to project that image? I truly don't know. Sounds like it might be a defense of some kind though. (Unless you really ARE a patronizing smartarse & it doesn't sound like you see those as a good traits.)

Here's my own concern about involving people's families if you don't know the family really well. It's easy to make assumptions based on limited information. And our own, personal experiences (which might not be relevant at all) are going to bias those assumptions. be (I'm a little taken aback that an experienced therapist wouldn't be wary of making assumptions about families.) For example, expressing to her father that it would help if he showed her he loved her is a fine idea. But what if he doesn't love her? What if he doesn't want to help her for some reason? Or what if there's something else going on & he's been expressing his love forever and she's rejected it? Or something else entirely is going on? Getting to the truth of what's going on in a family isn't always simple and straightforward. It can be a bit of a minefield.
 
Here's my own concern about involving people's families if you don't know the family really well. It's easy to make assumptions based on limited information. And our own, personal experiences (which might not be relevant at all) are going to bias those assumptions. be (I'm a little taken aback that an experienced therapist wouldn't be wary of making assumptions about families.) For example, expressing to her father that it would help if he showed her he loved her is a fine idea. But what if he doesn't love her? What if he doesn't want to help her for some reason? Or what if there's something else going on & he's been expressing his love forever and she's rejected it? Or something else entirely is going on? Getting to the truth of what's going on in a family isn't always simple and straightforward. It can be a bit of a minefield.

I concur. I just chalk it up to the list of every single therapist I have ever known to not precisely walk the talk. They're humans like all of us, we're better off seeing them as "good enough rather than perfect" to use their own advice. As I say, the veteran therapist in question is a mainstream published authority who was close friends with the founder of an entire branch of it, which he proselytized. He has a conviction about the somewhat supernatural power of love to heal almost anything. In our discussion I suppose he was grasping for a place where a miracle could be found. He is right that her feeling loved by her father would help immensely; you are right that my encouragement of that could go wrong. I think he does love her, and that he doesn't have the means to show it because he was not given an example of it to learn from himself. Still, I think if it went well it could save his daughter's life, which attracted me to the risk of trying with her brother (now on the back burner).

With my friend, on some occasions I can inadvertently be reactive and touchy, on others I can come across to her as a patronizing smartarse and I don't like it at all. She very easily interprets feedback or advice from anyone as patronizing, but I want to own it. I'm trying to be self-aware rather than blame her for everything and expect her to change rather than me. In my family we all answer each other back in a kind of banter, and speak our minds forthrightly. It is the way of our little micro-culture which I grew up in. Added to that, I have experienced so much injustice and abuse that perhaps I am quick to perceive it (confirmation bias) and then immediately call it out. For people from other families in which there is a microculture of not speaking one's mind it can come across as overbearing. I have a campaigning personality type (ENFP https://www.16personalities.com/enfp-personality) and I guess for some people our enthusiasm can come across as presuming to know better, which we don't mean at all. I hope I have adjusted this in 30 years of adulthood. I sometimes slip up, so I wanted to give her that. I still believe packaging communication and tact is one of my tasks, per David Burns, Feeling Good Together: The Secret to Making Troubled Relationships Work. You are right that a big part of that is to think where it comes from, and thank you for reminding me.
 
Last edited:

2025 Donation Goal

Help Keep MyPTSD Alive! Our annual donation goal is crucial to continue providing support. If you find value in our resource, please contribute to ensure we remain online and available for everyone who needs us.
Goal
$1,600.00
Received
$470.00
29%

Trending content

Featured content

Latest posts

Back
Top