Don't know how to help a friend, ideas welcome

[Applecore]

Just checking in here as I had another distressing call from her last night (Saturday). I am able to cope, and feel that writing it out here may help clear my mind.

On Friday she had texted to say how depressed she feels again. I sent her a pic from the summer in which she is happy and smiling, then realised my good intention might not have been the best thing to do. It could have been 'emotional rescue' co-dependency (per Drama Triangle) or invalidated her current sadness which it may be healthy for her to go through.

I am unusually swamped with work and have to do it so as not to lose my main client. I had to not take a call from her earlier in the day yesterday (Saturday). By text, I cancelled a provisional idea I had to take her to the cinema. I told her all this by text. Instead of rescuing her from her mood or trying to get her out of it or invalidating it I texted to say I understand she is sad and that I want her to take as long as she needs to feel what she feels, and that we'll have another go at getting to the cinema next weekend. This was self care, I didn't want her mood to disrupt my work.

She called in the evening and I took it as I'd finished my work for the day. She was in an extremely distressed or dysregulated state. Yet again she says euthanasia is her only option left. She says she is still too exhausted and depressed to tidy her apartment after a year of trying. Let alone get a washing machine and a bed to sleep on. She can't get a job and has run out of money. Wouldn't hold down a job anyway as she can hardly function due to constant exhaustion and cognitive problems such as brain fog. Can't afford therapy and has no family or state support. Her father's mental state and a court case they are in continue to distress her. As does her lawsuit against her stalker, who she will meet in court in about 2 weeks.

She got so agitated it was to the point of almost shouting about not having any energy to do anything. Yes, I noticed the irony. Angry with me for not making time earlier in the day. I asked her what she thought us not being together would look like, given it was her decision to move out almost a year ago and had been talking about it for years before that. She said I should make time to give her a hug. I agreed to briefly meet up with her today, I will put a time limit on it due to workload.

She has certainly tried everything: therapy, medication, self improvement courses, and has attempted to commence work many times. In her own words, nothing works.

If anyone out there has some wise words, I will eagerly read them.

 

[Midnightmoon]

I'm sorry it continues to be so difficult, for both of you. It sounds like you are more able to create space for yourself though which is really lovely to read.

Did she contact social care, it's what's continuing to jump out at me in all of this? Or via a GP to get any form of support involved?

 

[Applecore]

@Midnightmoon

Thank you so much for your kind words. It really, really helps and means so much to me. You are a friendly stranger and I hope I can reciprocate or pay it forward.

One of the very few things I did ask her last night amid her monologue of doom was whether she did approach the social care website I sent her a link to. She dismissed it as a useless idea, given that one of the therapists she'd paid in the past had given her such lousy advice. (Namely trying out dog walking to earn a little money - while she has a masters degree in economics from a top university, her peers have stellar careers, and her medical costs will not be met by dog walking.)

I am now considering telling her that I understand her legitimate feelings of sadness and despair, and I will not diminish them; but I cannot rescue her from them. I am also going to reduce the complaining in my life for the reasons explained here:

Complaining is Bad for Your Brain | M1 Psychology

Studies show complaining is bad for you - regardless of whether you are the one complaining, or just listening to it! Brisbane Psychologist Tara Pisano explains.

m1psychology.com

I am tempted to engage further, and to say that her diagnoses of inflammation might benefit from attending to what she says herself is her emotional dysregulation:

Loading…

www.google.com

 

[Midnightmoon]

Some of the skills learnt in DBT she might find really useful if emotional regulation is such a difficulty. I know therapy isn't an option with cost ATM but online might be worth a look....

Ultimately though, she has to want to be open to the possibility of trying new stuff, of moving towards something that's healthier than her current lifestyle. In many ways it feels like she's not, she says she is, but then emotionally attacks you when she's distressed instead, the intensity dies down, she goes back to 'normal' until the next time when the cycle repeats and repeats.

whether she did approach the social care website I sent her a link to. She dismissed it as a useless idea, given that one of the therapists she'd paid in the past had given her such lousy advice

Sometimes, if we're starting at a really low point it's excruciatingly hard to take the baby steps because we just want it done and over with ASAP. The therapists suggestion might have been more about getting her out of the house, responsibility, engagement etc rather than the end goal of reliable work at this stage. The baby steps might feel useless to her or even slightly insulting but it's part of the process, we all start somewhere but avoiding the start isn't helping her in the slightest.

You can't be her solution for everything, which is her current strategy... There are other options out there for her to at least investigate (like social care, at least worth a email/ phone call) but until she's willing to try those out this will just be more and more entrenched....

 

[shimmerz]

“I love you dearly. It’s just the extent of the help I need, and that I am not getting, is what makes me so very upset. I am totally helpless.”

She is telling you right here what she wants from the people she feels owe her help. Do you want to be a part of that?

I have been totally helpless. Somatic trauma replaying will do that to someone. Run of the mill things had my body respond in crazy ways. I couldn't go out on my own for 8 years. Someone needed to hold my hand in case I bolted if a young child cried. I used to drop on the ground, frozen. Outside. Anywhere. It was a horror.

But here is the thing. A person still needs to try. Small steps. She apparently is handing all the people she knows responsibility if she takes her own life. That is a horribly abusive thing to do. Do my laundry, clean my apartment, come out with me because I need to talk to you even though you have your own things you are dealing with?

Sounds to me like straight up manipulation.

(Namely trying out dog walking to earn a little money - while she has a masters degree in economics from a top university, her peers have stellar careers, and her medical costs will not be met by dog walking.)

Is this entitlement?

 

[Applecore]

Yesterday my friend's lawyer quit from the lawsuit against the man who stalked her, broke into her home and physically assaulted her leaving her bruised, of which there is photographic evidence. This is one week from the first courtroom hearing (in which her attacker has the right to cross-examine her, a further opportunity for abuse), which the lawyer has been paid for and will therefore be present at, after which the lawyer says she will cease cooperation. The lawyer refused to prepare my friend for the hearing without additional fees.

Naturally my friend is severely traumatized, shaking, and is having a relapse of systemic inflammation. I gave her a hug and brought her a hot lunch yesterday as she still doesn't have a kitchen, let alone a washing machine. She ate it on her makeshift mattress on the floor as her place is still a mess. I advised her to take action, pointed her to a women's help centre, and she has been calling around for legal advice. Nobody can help.

The reason given by the lawyer for resignation is that she feels she can't meet her client's expectations. That sounds like an adversarial and spiteful explanation to me. I am aware that my friend had many disagreements with her lawyer over the past few months, and their relationship was very uncomfortable. Apparently there was zero empathy or solidarity from a fellow woman with power, on this matter of a male attacker.

My friend's decision to choose this lawyer was hasty, perhaps made in desperation and perhaps also a consequence of her state of mind. It may be that my friend's symptom of irritability was a factor in the lawyer's conduct, though it's no excuse. And so may be the fact that my friend explained she is broke, and doesn't have the resources for a drawn-out case. Still, the lawyer was getting paid a lot already.

Googling around the subject in English, it appears to be extremely controversial for a lawyer to resign amid a case. And just before a victim gets cross-examined by her attacker? To my mind that's barbaric. But as I have mentioned a few times before, unprofessionalism is rife in this non-Anglophone country and is far worse here than in the US/UK.

I am shocked and have awoken in the night with insomnia. The best I can think to say to my friend later today is that repeated disasters happen, and even then we can find peace, rebuild and grow back stronger. Although that doesn't help he with what to do about the hearing just five days away.

And before anyone asks again, yes she is asking for help. Constantly. With the information that she is penniless, unemployed, unsupported by family or state, physically unwell, mentally unwell.

To my mind, I am maintaining certain boundaries. According to the theories about co-dependence, am I supposed to abandon her?

 

[scout86]

The reason given by the lawyer for resignation is that she feels she can't meet her client's expectations

That sounds like an adversarial and spiteful explanation to me.

Or, maybe it's the truth and was given out of frustration.

I really and truly don't know, and have no way of knowing. But, your friend DOES sound like a pretty challenging client where it might be impossible to meet her expectations. After all, you have trouble meeting her expectations too.

Part of the reason I say that...... I'm a farrier. (I shoe horses and trim their feet, etc.) Over the years, I've had a few people try really hard to tell me how to do my job. I'm pretty good at my job, so that's annoying. But normally I listen, explain what I'm doing and why, and things move along. Once in a great while, someone persists to the point that I can't stand it. Then, I usually offer to lend them my tools, so they can do the job themselves. Sometimes that gets the point across. Sometimes it doesn't. If it doesn't, I leave. Job unfinished and also (usually) unpaid. It's worth it to get away from them. I generally don't return their calls in the future. Why would I?

I don't know that your friend is one of those people, but I can see the possibility so maybe the lawyer has her reasons. Meanwhile, I can see where the lawyer situation is going to make presenting her case a lot harder. I'm kind of surprised she needs her own lawyer though. Seems like the state should be prosecuting someone for stalking and assault & the victim shouldn't have to hire a lawyer.

 

[Sideways]

When a lawyer takes on a client where I live, there are a range of reasons they might have to stop representing them. I’ve had to do it myself. Sometimes, clients make it impossible to represent their own best interests, or to meet obligations as an officer of the court. In those cases, stepping away is the only option you have.

According to the theories about co-dependence, am I supposed to abandon her?

It’s not quite that extreme or black and white.

Sometimes, the most appropriate support is to listen, without trying to solve.

 

[Friday]

Googling around the subject in English, it appears to be extremely controversial for a lawyer to resign amid a case. And just before a victim gets cross-examined by her attacker? To my mind that's barbaric. But as I have mentioned a few times before, unprofessionalism is rife in this non-Anglophone country and is far worse here than in the US/UK.

From knowing a few too many lawyers? (Mostly stateside, a few internationally)

Lawyers (USA) can, or legally must (or risk being disbarred, and/or brought up on charges themselves), fire a client when the client is engaging in fraudulent or criminal activity, refuses to be truthful, consistently ignores legal advice, demands unethical actions, fails to fulfil financial obligations, or when the representation becomes unreasonably difficult, or dangerous, due to the client's behaviour.

Here in the US I don’t know that there’s any controversy in inability, or failure, to pay… except that it’s considered unethical to bleed a client dry, knowing they cannot afford you, and continuing to bill hours anyway. But that’s still commonly done, just looked down upon.

Where there’s a LOT of confusion/controversy here is Hollywood vs Reality. In reality, career criminals are usually very careful not to put their attorneys in a compromising position (as officers of the court, they’re pulled in 2 different directions, when clients make them aware of illegal activity); but Hollywood has most lay people thinking attorney-client-privilege is a blank cheque to talk about all kinds of ongoing, unrelated, or proposed/planned illegal activity… even to the point of attempting to rope their lawyers into brainstorming how to get away with their revenge-fantasy, or how to perjure themselves more effectively, to get the results they want in court. Nope! Demanding unethical actions? Doesn’t fly.

So that’s my own background/basis of understanding.

The reason given by the lawyer for resignation is that she feels she can't meet her client's expectations.

That sounds very diplomatic.

Also fair.

If you hire someone wanting ABC, and they tell you they cannot do ABC but can do XYZ, or 123? Agreeing, and keeping them on, but still expecting/insisting on/coming back to ABC? The right thing to do, after you’re certain they’re not hearing you, is to let them go. Because you cannot do ABC. It’s not going to happen. To keep them on, billing them for something they do not want, is ultimately unethical.

Whether ABC is a court outcome (like criminal charges in a civil case), or an emotional one (most lawyers I’ve known have had at least one or two clients who want to be “friends”; or want unbilled therapy, calling all hours of the day/night to cry/vent/need to be talked down; or who are unrespecting of privacy/boundaries. <<< A BIT of that is in the job description; holding hands of nervous clients, being available during emergencies, being personable, providing the occasional reality check (you are NOT crazy, you are a good person, and this was wrong)>>> But just like following a therapist home to continue the discussion you were having in your session is… wrong? Even though it’s “their job” to listen to you, and talk things through with you? That doesn’t mean it’s their job 24/7/365, anyplace/anywhere, for free. It’s their job during the time slot you’ve booked.

Clients in distress, whether it’s the law or mental health or any other specialty, are noooootoriously bad at boundaries. A certain degree of that is expected, and easily managed, in most cases. The exceptions? Want things one cannot give.

If your friend has been treating her attorney anything like how she treats you? I would find it more strange if she kept her on, rather than removing herself from the case.

But regardless of whether or not her lawyer was right to fire her, or unprofessional in firing her? The situation sucks, for your friend to be in.

To my mind, I am maintaining certain boundaries. According to the theories about co-dependence, am I supposed to abandon her?

There’s no golden / “right” set of boundaries, everyone’s are going to be different. If you’re happy about where your boundaries are, and how you enforce/maintain them? When she does A, you do B. When she does C, you do B or D or E or F. When she does G, you do B or F. ((Boundaries are not about changing anyone else’s behavior, boundaries describe our own behaviours in specific circumstances.)) Then you’re happy with how you’re managing problems as they present themselves. If they could be better? Try changing them. If that works better for you, keep them, if not, don’t. (Sooooo much easier said than done, amirite?!? But the simplest things usually are.)

Codependence theory doesn’t mean your boundaries have to, nor even “should”, be black & white, all or nothing, my way or finis! Boundaries exist all across the spectrum. For example? hanging up the phone, or leaving the room, or responding by yelling back at them just as loudly, or picking up a book and ignoring them, or going to run errands, or putting in earbuds and listening to music, or telling them to stop yelling at you, or, or, or, or, when someone is yelling at you? Is not abandoning them, friendship over, finis, done! There are 1,000 different actions one can choose to take, when someone else is yelling at them, that means “I will not give my attention to someone screaming at me.”. <<< Conversely? Some people have nooooooo problem with being yelled at. So they don’t have to create boundaries around being screamed at. Instead? They’d create boundaries unique to themselves, around what does bother them.>>>

There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE when an outside party witnesses someone being screamed at, and asks them “Why do you put up with that?” AND THE ANSWERS ARE :
- What? Oh. It doesn’t bother me.
- They’re just stressed. If this was all the time, or they were stressed all the time? It would be a problem, but it’s really rare for them to blow up like this.
- Because it’s my fault.
- Because I’m afraid they’ll leave me if I don’t.
- I’m not just going to abandon them!
- I don’t know what else to do. I’ve tried everything I can think of.
- They keep promising they’ll stop. They’re always sorry, afterward.

Each of those answers has a different sort of need around boundaries. From none whatsoever, to boundaries around timing/frequency, to not accepting the blame for actions others take (just because someone is mad at me? Doesn’t mean they’re in the right, and I’m in the wrong. Much less that it’s my fault they’re yelling, and my responsibility to fix. And vice versa!), to, to, to.

Different boundaries to meet different needs & wants & personalities.

I am shocked and have awoken in the night with insomnia. The best I can think to say to my friend later today is that repeated disasters happen, and even then we can find peace, rebuild and grow back stronger. Although that doesn't help he with what to do about the hearing just five days away.

^^^ This ^^^ May or May Not speak to your boundaries needing a tune-up. It’s completely natural to worry about the people we love, on the one hand. On the other, taking on as much distress as the person living it, making it your “own”, instead of someone you love’s? Would be the codependent factor.

Being interdependent, or independent, doesn’t mean you don’t care, nor drop anyone you do care about that you lose sleep over, worrying about them. It means you don’t own/claim their problems as your own. Nor their successes, when you’re proud of them; nor their failures, when they f*ck up. You still FEEL for the person you care about, you still help as you can, but it’s not your responsibility to, because what they think/feel & how they behave & their victories & defeats? Are theirs.

 

[Lost in the Woods]

Your friend needs to make sure she is doing the basics to help herself, good diet, exercise, fresh air and nature. Those will help her greatly as they have helped me navigate a neurological condition for the last 23 years. I used to practice law and there are many reasons an attorney might seek to withdraw. If the attorney believes the client is trying to perpetrate a fraud upon the court the attorney needs to withdraw but can’t tell the court why. Judges understand what it means when an attorney seeks such a withdrawal. Also if the attorney and client simply can’t work together personality wise or the client refuse to follow to advice of the attonrey. To me she sounds very troubled from what you have stated. What she says may not accurately reflect reality, so be careful on that. I also think you need to look at yourself. The need to rescue should be looked at as objectively as you can.

 

[Applecore]

Some of the skills learnt in DBT she might find really useful if emotional regulation is such a difficulty. I know therapy isn't an option with cost ATM but online might be worth a look....

Ultimately though, she has to want to be open to the possibility of trying new stuff, of moving towards something that's healthier than her current lifestyle. In many ways it feels like she's not, she says she is, but then emotionally attacks you when she's distressed instead, the intensity dies down, she goes back to 'normal' until the next time when the cycle repeats and repeats.


Sometimes, if we're starting at a really low point it's excruciatingly hard to take the baby steps because we just want it done and over with ASAP. The therapists suggestion might have been more about getting her out of the house, responsibility, engagement etc rather than the end goal of reliable work at this stage. The baby steps might feel useless to her or even slightly insulting but it's part of the process, we all start somewhere but avoiding the start isn't helping her in the slightest.

You can't be her solution for everything, which is her current strategy... There are other options out there for her to at least investigate (like social care, at least worth a email/ phone call) but until she's willing to try those out this will just be more and more entrenched....

@Midnightmoon

Thank you yes in general you have accurately observed the situation. When you say she has to want to be open to trying new stuff to move to something healthier, the puzzle is that she has been constantly been trying new stuff for years, in order to move to something healthier.

Over the past four years since falling very ill and losing her job, she self-funded several different therapists, self improvement courses (which were very expensive), residential workshops (one of which was a seemingly unprofessional application of Stanislav Grof-inspired psychoactive breathwork that gave her a very 'bad trip'), yoga, horse riding, kite surfing, medication, alternative medicine, breaks away, moving out from my place, starting a renovation at hers, standing up to physical assault by hiring a lawyer, etc.

She's blown all her life savings on new stuff. I encouraged her to reach out for social care, and she did put in a call to the women's group I found most recently. All they could do for her was to put her on a waiting list for a session of free therapy. It's really that in spite of trying, major progress doesn't seem to be made. And the cycles do continue.

I continue to put my own life first and ahead of hers, which means my career which is very rewarding. I sometimes decline to meet or to take calls, or end calls when they carry on too long. In fact she does the same due to her symptom of exhaustion. When necessary, I remind her that being a receiver of complaining, irritability and dysregulation is not what I am here for. Apart from making a contribution to her lawsuit costs (partly for my personal feelings about the cause of combatting sexual abuse of women) I do not financially support her. I occasionally pay for her food, just as I would for any friend. When she asks for advice or opinion, I give it; understanding the dysfunction of rescue, I give ever less unsolicited advice - which she has also said she doesn't want. She recently helped me with local bureaucracy (as my command of the local language is basic) and she often emotionally supports and councils me about my life, family and friends when invited to.

I try to audit myself for co-dependence, and I don't believe I exactly fit the cliché or stereotype. Just yesterday I told her: "You know best what to do about yourself, I don't." A week ago I told her: "I can't rescue you from your mood. That is something only you can fix."

I wonder whether there's a bit of a kneejerk reaction for observers here to perceive a scenario of a person with a problem, and jump to conclusions that the friendly relationship has to be one of co-dependence. Or perhaps, by processing my experience of the problem here on this forum, I have focused on the problems rather what might actually be the positive sides to the situation, thereby presenting the situation as more one-sided or co-dependent than it is. That's despite any co-dependent aspects that there may be. And so I am accountable for the impression of the situation that I have created. I am thinking this through.

Thank you.

 

[Friday]

I wonder whether there's a bit of a kneejerk reaction for observers here to perceive a scenario of a person with a problem, and jump to conclusions that the friendly relationship has to be one of co-dependence.

Weren’t you the one who brought it up, in your update?

It’s not something that enters my own mind, otherwise… along with a shortlist of other issues that people so often struggle with, that I either don’t, or struggle with the 180 version of.

Yep, here it is. In your closing paragraph.

To my mind, I am maintaining certain boundaries. According to the theories about co-dependence, am I supposed to abandon her?