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Eliminating Exposure To Ptsd For Others' Sake?

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It would just crush me to try and change that which I cannot.

Dear SoL, I didn't mean to suggest you hadn't tried, in fact I suspect you've 'tried' yourself blue! :(

What I meant but didn't express very well was, to 'try' to accept something is 'ok'; that is, for example, trust other's words and go with that, do not allow yourself to default to how you see yourself or even think of yourself. (If you are like me it will be very hard not to. That is what I mean by 'new'. 'New' compared to what you are thinking, how you reason.

I understand, hope terrifies me. I personally don't equate an expectation to (the results of) trying (if I can help it), that helps me dodge some of the fear.

I hope when I die I won't be asked why I didn't do what I could, with what I had. Even if I don't think it's good for much or anything at all. They say 'love is the one thing that can't harm your neighbour'. They didn't say a disclaimer that that doesn't apply if you have PTSD. I hope its ok to say, try to go easier on yourself if possible, beating yourself up is not as warranted as you may feel- God doesn't make junk and you don't deserve to punish yourself. It's a 'PTSD lie', I think. Not to mention, when I 'meet' someone who has a lot to overcome, I know they do accomplish so much (already), by their nature and self- otherwise there wouldn't be such temptations to throw (that) away. JMHO.

You're a good soul SoL. And a tough cookie (I mean that in a good way). :)
 
Junebug,

Feeling like there's something wrong with us that is harmful to others is part of long-standing PTSD. It is a symptom, but a function of constriction due to fear of getting re-victimized.

"The basic interpersonal orientation of the DESNOS (Disorders of Extreme Stress, Not Otherwise Specified) patient is passive in nature, characterized by a duality of avoidance and revictimization. For example, these patients often engage in prolonged periods of self-inflicted social isolation and avoidance of intimate contact. At other times, however, they report abruptly discovering themselves to be in the midst of an intense emotional relationship that feels unsafe or out of control. In fact, when DESNOS patients do enter intimate relationships, it is often as a result of being the target of victimizing others who have been drawn to these patients’ emotional vulnerability, underdeveloped capacity to identify danger cues, and tolerance for violence and boundary violations as an inherent component of intimate relationships. DESNOS patients are often observed, to the chagrin of their therapists, to reenact their interpersonal traumas, repeatedly finding themselves helplessly playing out the role of victim, or, alternately, compelled to victimize others in ways similar to those experienced in their own history of childhood traumatization.

DESNOS patients not only tend to fear and believe themselves to be unworthy of meaningful relationships with others; they are generally incapable of imagining a future for themselves in which they can love and be loved in a relationship that is free of abuse.

Given this pessimism about the potential for positive interpersonal connection and general distrust of others, DESNOS patients are not surprisingly somewhat less likely than patients with BPD to engage in boundary violations and intrusiveness with their therapists at the outset of treatment. In contrast, they often present as apprehensive, guarded, and at times hostile toward new treatment providers. The establishment of safety and trust is perhaps the most important component of the initial phase of treatment with these patients."

Source: http://www.traumacenter.org/products/pdf_files/DESNOS.pdf

There are plenty of toxic people out there don't care about their effect on others. The fact that we feel like we're toxic is only a feeling, and feelings aren't facts. When we begin to feel better about ourselves and have a more accurate perception about ourselves as compared to others, this feeling goes away.

(((((Junebug)))))
 
There are plenty of toxic people out there don't care about their effect on others. The fact that we feel like we're toxic is only a feeling, and feelings aren't facts. When we begin to feel better about ourselves and have a more accurate perception about ourselves as compared to others, this feeling goes away.

Aw Dear Bloom, thank you, I hope so. I had no idea this is common with long-term ptsd. It definitely increased in the last few years. To be clear, feeling like a "time bomb" I think is more a fear of 'if ever' at some point I imploded and caused others suffering, not a daily occurence, but just once (if ever) would be too much. On a daily basis, I guess its more the regret (and knowledge) of the degree of accomodation (my) ptsd requires, compared to someone without ptsd. At least in my mind, anyway. Which mght not be entirely accurate, as others have said everyone has different sorrows or 'stuff', and relates differently. Though I'm capable of it but I'm not inclined to outbursts or rage in relationships. Though similarly, or equally so, I imagine I would regard it the same way if I had cancer, or something else. Whether I 'learned' that that was inexcusable (and burdensome and to be avoided at all costs) or 'taught myelf', it is very ingrained since I was a child.

Unfortunately I could just about have my picture beside the definition above. Except for the 'victimizing others' part at the end of the big definition. I skimmed through the file (just home from work) but will read it all, wow, thank you. It may take me a while, lol :) . Xox, ((((dear Bloom)))).

My life has been a combination of healthy choices and trauma-influenced ones. On a positive note, I finally have some idea (specifically) why ptsd kicked in (only took 28 years to figure out! :eek: ). I think I am a compassionate person, though selfishly I wished I worked or was somewhere I could regroup on my own, instead, at this point in my life. At one point I would have thought that awful (for me), but now I wish for the opposite . I think logically part too of lacking feeling of a purpose corresponds or inter-relates to not being needed. But that is independent of overcoming the feeling 'we' need to justify being on the planet! :rolleyes: :( That does seem characteristic of ptsd, too.

And I think a large part of ptsd that goes under-recognized is the sheer physical toll it takes on one's body. And to be able to 'feel' the changes and know cognitively they don't have a basis, but still they are almost always there- so draining! For example, I did this silly but simple test ("Dr Oz", who I normally never watch, said look at the inside of lower eyelid-'cul de sac'- white is anemic,vs red, mine is white now). Well, have described it ( to myself) as if I felt I've given blood- guess I have (the equivalent)! Lol. It's a relief to know it's (the tiredness) is maybe not just 'me'. So I think many of these things all come in to play: symptomology, distorted thinking, healthier choices, past experiences (good and bad), etc.

Its taken me a long time to view anything past as qualifying as traumatic, or even 'empathisable' (especially as per applying empathy to myself), and even less understandable as to how others could bear 'it' or 'me' (as they have a choice where as I do not, as per myelf). I really don't understand that part. However, I know I try to give a lot of compassion to others, but as I said, given the opportunity I'd seclude myself more, so I feel like a bit of a fraud, or at least worn out. It's like having to be extroverted for a lifetime when it goes against my grain. Similarly, I have no desire for abuse in relationships, but neither would I have made a very good "Domestic Diva", lol. Oye, that would have been awful for my type. In a healthy way (true to myself) I never wanted "cheese sandwich" relationships ("take-it-or-leave-it"), but just like they said above one ends up open to abusive types. I find accepting ptsd hard, or perhaps lonely, as evidenced by how difficult it is to explain to others. That's where or how I fear hurting others, I understand the implications or depths of the implications, where as they can't.

But I would rather accept as you said that that might be a heightened 'feeling' in me, and at least try to think differently (or to not think). I heard something today that people can receive help, even without thinking of it or asking for it (voicing it). I don't mean an expectation that it doesn't take work, or that anything will passively improve. But I know for myself, much of this (originally) came about when I was actively trying to seek help for someone else, as well as to bear it myself, and help them. Though it had nothing to do with ptsd. Yet in the process I've received it. It's just that it's been painful to dig up. Did you find the same sorrow and upheaval and uncertainty first?

I also heard a man say today, he lost the use of his right hand (dominant), he's learning to use his left, he can write a few words and it's not as painful now, either. Maybe there's a lot of wisdom in that.

(((((Sweet sweet Bloom :inlove: )))))
 
One thing that makes me a little sad, is that I wish I knew then what I know now, as regards ptsd, it sure would have explained a lot! I would have probably made (most) of the same decisions, but at least I would have known why I had to or was inclined to. But I am more thankful than sad. I guess, too, knowing things differently now, I don't have to respond the same way as I would have then.

I can't recall the exact quote, but there's one by either Rumi or Hafiz that goes similar to, "Fear is the cheapest room in the house, I'd like to see you living in better conditions". :)

:hug:
 
Eiy, Dear Bloom, the article- is this supposed to be seperate (independent of, on top of, or even instead of) the ptsd? I don't think I exhibit BPD characteristics, either, though they say DESNOS has similarities, and they quantify it as having the presence of dissociative episodes, also. Thankfully for the most part that's not my key challenge. :( And not quite sure how ptsd causing incident(s) are not in and of themselves examples of 'extreme stress'? Oh my, I'm totally confused. :( Though again I've only skimmed some. Have I got this right Bloom?

I suppose however it's a bit of progress in regards to myself, to not just 'read it and fear it', that is automtically presume there must be even more wrong with me than I first thought! Oye.

I was going to say though, I think I can say (finally, for once) the traumas 'past' are 'past'; that is, 'past' to me. I think that's HUGE. (Though I won't break any progress-speed-records, lol. :) ) Maybe for once I can get my body/mind/heart/soul all on the same page in the present. I'm sick also of thinking of myself, or having it weigh (at all) on others. (This time I mean that in a more healthy way, not a self-bashing one).The present is the place I'd rather focus. (With the caveat of course of symptom management- emotion regulation etc, self-awareness, practise).

Thanks Dear Bloom :hug: .
 
I think what I understand, is when my dad died I never understood after about the effects- flashbacks and such. And then, all the 'lousy' coping attempts-I felt 'wrong' and 'weak', as to why I couldn't handle it. Despite the no-warning and such. But the death alone was not all of it, at all. Seeing him get 'knocked off', as it were, and most specifically not doing anything to stop it, or saying anything, it was like I was complicant in murder. I failed to protect him- my responsibilty to as I was the only one there. And one part of me didn't want to see him suffer, even if it meant his death and all that implied, including for my mom. But his death would not have been (as) 'imminent'- he had just made a will about 4 hours earlier, etc We were checking out liver transplants. I know from my work experience, it would not (his death) have occurred like that were it not 'unassisted'- he was having a conversation (fully 'there') and 10-20 minutes later dead (following the injection). But I knew that even then. And then I kept that terrible secret. No wonder I was a mess.

I don't know 'what', if anything (or everything??) this has to do with this thread, but it sure would explain why I am afraid I coud be harmful to others and am (feel like) a horrible and harmful person. :(
 
I think it's a fallacy to believe just because I think I'm toxic I must not be toxic as other truly toxic people don't think they're toxic.

Well, for me anyway.
 
I think it's a fallacy

SoL, of course any generalization is a fallacy, but equally so would be one wherein you say you are all 'good' or all 'bad'. For the vast majority of us, the response to that is "yes"! (Just speaking for myself of course). Much of that being dependent on what we choose, what we justify, the chips on our shoulders, in a negative fashion on not being respectful to others, or not thinking of others. Think that's what was meant- self awareness and trying not to harm others (no matter how unsuccessfully we think we're accomplishing that, or rather miserably feel we are 'failing'), is bound to be (potentially) less toxic than running wide open with no thoughts as to our impact on others whatsoever.

In fact, I'd say this (all of this) sounds much more like extreme (black-and white) thinking, not as logical as the mind tries to say it's so. Perhaps evidenced by how difficult self-care or being kind to ourselves is. Human beings are not always logical. But they also *can* be forgiving, feeling, follow their gut, have different things they like and don't, different deal breakers. If someone thinks you are as you feel you are, I stand by what the others said here- they'll let you know.

All I can say is for myself, I am taking a big step. I know what set off the ptsd (now I know), as surely as if had been a car accident (but it wasn't), the moment that changed everything, not something that was as complex as I thought, or requires deep thought- just the bare truth. And I have been my own judge, jury and executioner- and I mean that deadly literally. But, it's not been unfounded, it applies. My friend is going to help me to get it out, do something I need and should do, though the facts remain and will remain what they are. In fact, though my friend can help me professionally I doubt there wll be much friendship left, because people can only digest or accept so much.

However, I am sick of the BS in my life- or as regards myself, I'd rather live honestly, and actually 'live', even if I don't know how. The guilt I've earned I also deserve. And for what is not my guilt, or done to be by others, not mine. But all there is is this life, and I for one, one-way-or-another don't want to be thinking or talking or interrupting 'life' (The Big Picture) any more by my *'trauma'* thoughts. Yes I have needs and so does everyone else, life will go on no matter whether I'm in it or not, or anything else as regards myself. No more than I would want to focus on losing a leg after it's gone.

It's not 'getting over it', but it's up to me to be responsible, lay the stuff on the table for what it really is, not logical (or illogical) arguments in my own head but the Truth. Thinking of others too, as having difficulties and sorrows as great or greater than mine. I don't know how to explain it- maybe another way of saying it, is to be acutely aware of what or how I am 'yes', but look for what others need too, that maybe they feel that way too. Yes to realize it can cause others grief to stay, and also grief to them to 'protect them' from me, to know I can give good or bad, and all the in-betweens. Speaking ONLY for myself. Because I have been y own judge, jury and executioner, it's determined virtually every major decision in my life. Including what I am 'entitled' to.
 
I guess what I'm saying is, "Am I bad or am I good (for others)?", and the answer is "yes". There can be a degree to which concerning myself to be so 'harmful', that in an attempt to protect others (from myself) I cause them more pain. And it can also inadvertently preclude gratitude for them, for their patience or forgiveness or choices, for kindnesses or breaks or help I don't deserve but nonetheless have received or am receiving as evidenced by their response. It may be well-intentioned, but it is not kind to not let others think for themselves. Them being able to 'overlook' or accept or tolerate much of ptsd says oodles about them, me discrediting it etc says a lot about me (none of it good).
 
Thank you Abstract.

Ya, it's funny I always thought that the ptsd symptoms dictated my choices through life. But it was I who dictated the choices, the ptsd symptoms just came along for the ride. My internal knowledge or beliefs dictated it. Explains so much though. Easily.

Even now, I wish there was another way, to 'ignore' it or forget it, but no, it's the truth to which I'm responsible to face.

I even wonder if that's where ptsd 'comes' from, the mind's or heart's attempts to 'wish' different decisions had been made or different realities were so, personally or existencially. Because I see that repeated on the forum: "if" we had been stronger, driven a different road, been more 'lovable', been born to a different family, not trusted who the person did, etc etc. Different stories, same end result (ptsd).

My biggest problem is, I'm afraid ('know'??) I'd react or respond now as I did then- that to me is wholly unforgiveable, and that's what causes me fear. Not just what I've done, the past cannot be changed, and I did it- it was 'me'. And this is the 'me' now, that wonders and has the fears and reservations I do for that very reason. I cannot imagine there is solution to that, I can hope to not be placed in that postion again but it's a whole other thing to know that I would posibly repeat it, and fundamentally hence what that says about 'me'. :( But its the truth.
 
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