News Gender identification - when to start the conversation

[Neverthesame]

A few centuries ago straight men wore makeup and false wigs (talking about Rokoko) and all ballet dancers were male.

And actors. Women used to be forbidden from taking the stage. All roles were played by men back then.

Let's not forget Corporal Clinger. He wore a dress for years just to get kicked out of the army.

@shimmerz Totally agree with you that going behind the parents back is disgusting. What a great lesson for children to learn.
Hey kids! Don't like the rules your parents set out for you?
Just go behind their backs and do it anyway. It's ok, the government said so.
They know what's best for you. After all, your parents are paying to live in this country, so they should just shut up and take their medicine.
Go Canada!

 

[Friday]

First, in case anyone's interested, I really hate being called "hon". People can call me what they want, their choice, but that one always rankles unless it's coming from a waitress in a southern cafe. It strikes me as condescending, at best. I usually let it go, because I figure the odds are 50/50 between "I'm right about that" or "I'm being too sensitive".

Apologies. I was relaxed, because I like you, rather than the reverse. That's a me-thing though, I was raised with honorifics attached to names a few different ways, and I'm sorry it landed badly.

I actually didn't think I was talking about how PARENTS should be treated at all. I thought I was talking about how KIDS should be treated.

You had said that @Suzetig sounded like an ideal parent, ie could be trusted to raise her own children, and make decisions based on their best interest, but didn't think most parents would be like her.

How do you find out -roughly- how many parents are good parents? By looking up the stats on the number of bad parents (abused & neglected kids) and looking at the other side of the equation.

When you're talking about whose right & responsibility it is to RAISE children, and make decisions for them? You're talking about parents. That's whose job it is to do that.

 

[scout86]

but didn't think most parents would be like her.

That probably wasn't the best way to say that.

I actually don't think most parents WOULD be like her. I think most parents believe they own their kids until they escape out the door and they think their job to make the child fit what ever mold they believe the child should fit, rather than help the child develop into own best self. But, I'll freely admit, we have veered off into PTSD land, for me. This is an area where my T is forever saying stuff that makes me go, "What? You're kidding! That's the way most people work?" I have occasion to watch families interact kind of often. The people who respect their kids as people still surprise and deeply move me. Probably they always will. But, right or wrong, in my version of reality, the typical parent thinks they have the right to try to fit the kid they got stuck with into what ever role they want filled. Like it's all about the parent, not all about the kid.

We're probably going to have to agree to disagree on whose responsibility it is to raise kids. I think kids are like horses in that they are learning all the time, whether we're aware of it or not and everyone they interact with has a responsibility to do right by them.

Apology accepted on the "Hon" thing. (Interesting! I just found out I hate that so much it was hard to even write it. LOL Weird!)

 

[Justmehere]

This is an area where my T is forever saying stuff that makes me go, "What? You're kidding! That's the way most people work?" I have occasion to watch families interact kind of often.

Since I was a kid, I have been around and involved in families other than my own. I watch children and parents who are so different then mine where there is like consistency and predictability and no violence and despite all my years being exposed to other families... I still find it amazing. So amazing. And too forgien. I was just having a conversation with some older adults last night and they were saying what parents do with their kids... like all parents do it. I just stood there and eventually awkwardly blurted out, “not all parents. Mine didn’t. I didn’t even get this. Can you help me understand more?”

It was a rare moment of vulnerability for me. They told me what it was like to parent a wayward kid with race and trying to do the best they can... damn it. I nearly started crying.

Like that exists? That kind of love?

I try to remember when considering these issues the weight of all those families who are what is clinically called “good enough.”

But I also really recognize the weight of one parent getting it wrong for one child. I know that reality very well.

All my teachers knew I was getting abused. They told me so as an adult. Not one reported it to CPS. They thought they and my uncle could handle it (he was part of the abuse.)

If teachers can’t get it right on reporting child abuse... I don’t expect they will get this right either. It’s not like they go through decades of training on how to help kids and families. They don’t. It’s two years of grad school max, maybe 4, and they are not taught to be therapists or parent replacements.

I worry that when teachers try to be too many things, they won’t call in other folks when needed. When they try to be social worker and advocate and etc and etc. They end up failing somewhere. For me, it nearly cost me my life as an 11 year old who needed someone to say this was beyond them and pick up that damn phone to report the abuse.

Now this education program so wants teachers to be so many things they want the school to hide that a child is trans from the parent?

Think about why.

Some will advocate that they are concerned about safety or rejection issues at home. If that is the fear, that there would be safety or other home chaos issues if the parents find out a trans child is trans, the solution is NOT to just hide that the child is trans from the parents. But that’s what this program offers to do as the solution. Like what even is that? They are going to teach trans inclusion while teaching math but if the parents inquire, don’t tell them the kid goes by a different gender at school? Huh? I get so well how trans kids can be so badly rejected and hurt by unaccepting families and that it needs to be handled with care - that seems like a pull-in-a-social-worker or something moment. Not s keep secrets from the parents moment.

It can be dangerous when teachers try to be everything for a student.

 

[Gamera3000]

I am a sociologist, and I left graduate school and finished my degree at home because my professor suggested in class that my then fetus might someday be genderqueer or transgender. I was like shut up. I couldn't say that out loud, so I just left. My son is a "CISgen" white male, now a toddler. He is also unusually large and strong. I frequently have to step in and steer him away from influences that tell him that binary gender identities are wrong, and that being a strong male is wrong. It is rampant in children's education these days. It disgusts me, frankly.

It also intellectually disappoints me. Any mass of human beings will quickly decide what is normal, or what is the majority. About ANYTHING. That majority will make judgements about other issues and put values on those issues. From that, minorities will form. This is why we have males as a majority even though they are not a physical majority. We as a mass have judged them to be "normal" and females to be a deviation from normal. Females could be better or worse, that really doesn't matter, but we judge females as they compare to males.

This is normal human thinking. If we were not this way, we would have different bodies and would be able to survive physically not in groups. We don't have sharp teeth, claws, psychokinesis, cheetah speed, or anything else notable, except our social strength.

So this deconstructing of gender is bizarre. Social constructionism is a form of philosophy. Not useful, really, for anyone in regular life. It is used by us guys sociologists for stroking our chins and stirring our chai teas, having deep thoughts. There are some really good, but dense books written about it. If you get to truly studying it and understanding it, you can see that social constructionism, when welded correctly, can be extremely dangerous. A taste of what I mean is that the idea of "family" is a social construction. So is "money". Yes, "gender" is a social construction. But if we are dancing around with tearing down gender, than we should spare a few minutes thinking about what would happen if we stopped using currency. Just burn it up right now. Also, imagine that you lost your memory and your family meant nothing to you. You didn't recognize your children or parents. So tell your four year old to go get a job. Find her way to the sea like a little turtle, because she's nothing to you anymore. That's what it means when we turn our back on a social construction.

Grown adults who truly have gender dismorphia have a real problem and deserve concentrated resources, varied options, and as much acceptance as possible. Confusing our already built ideas of gender will only further hurt people with gender dismorphia, instead of help them.

 

[anonymous]

@Gamera3000: I just went anonymous, because I discussed the topic with a few friends of mine before and I am a bit paranoid and do not want them to find me here and read details of my husbands PTSD.

I am the mother of four young children and do not understand why there must be so much black and white thinking.

Some people seem to believe that all men must be knightly, strong, brave, whatever, while all women must be „damsels in distress“, soft, nurturing and so on.
Of course there are men who are very alpha, strong, confident, knightly but that is not ALL men and even those who are are not like this 100 percent of the time. What bad things would actually happen if we admit that there are boys who like dancing or decorating the house with flowers far better then playing with their toy soldiers?

My oldest who is five says he wants to be contradancer or a medieval knight when he grows up. Apart from the fact that contradancer is not a job and medical knights do not exist any longer... You would probably tell him he can be a knight, but not a contradancer, but why? Feminists would tell him contradancer is okay as a job but Knight is not... again I cannot understand why...

My husband, a former professional soldier, likes to dance, to cook and to sew and he is still straight... at least I hope so.

Why are human beings not allowed to be multidimensional?

 

[shimmerz]

Why are human beings not allowed to be multidimensional?

Because that doesn't fit into the rigidity of the current system. I honestly believe that this is part of the reason that there are so many 'identified' students these days. You know.... the one's that don't 'learn right'.

 

[Upside Down Eagle]

*clears throat*
*steps on box*

Nah, forget it. But I am transitioning. So maybe I can provide a perspective from that point of view. Important to keep in mind, in that regard, is that I am generally more conservative than the trans population. I´m a liberal-leaning moderate. In my experience, the T in LGBT tends to be liberal.

I have lived most of my life in anguish. It was PTSD+, but I never quite understood what + was. To be honest, I thought that PTSD had screwed me up far beyond recognition, and that´s why I felt so uncomfortable in my own skin. I had no idea what transgenderism really meant, and my image of trans people was limited to jokes about transwomen on comedy shows.

I was 27 when I found out that trans people experience dysphoria, and I realized immediately that it applied to me. My general idea of what transsexuals were, was so limited, that before that day I did not even know that individuals who were assigned female at birth, could feel like men. Which was my situation.

So here´s the thing. I am Pro- More Information. Since we live in an age where transgender issues are constantly in the news, I´m not sure that necessary anymore. I´m not even sure if all this negative attention is good for the community (by which I mean constant debate over mundane things, like toilets).

For me the whole toilet thing is a no-brainer. I look like a man. I think like a man. I behave like a man, and I talk like a man. Do women want me on their toilet? Nope. Do guys think it´s weird when I go to the men´s room? Nope. Why not have a toilet for both genders and be done with it? That´s just my approach to that. I understand some people would disagree.

It would have been nice for me to know that transgender individuals aren´t f*cked in the head back when I was smaller. I would have liked to know that sometimes, people born as females do not feel female. I don´t mean not-extremely-feminine. I mean really-not-female. Perhaps I could have transitioned earlier, like all these kids (teenagers) today.

So yeah, you should tell kids that it´s a thing. But should you meddle with their identity? F*ck no. Don´t try to confuse someone. My parents did not raise me exclusively with Barbies, I had barbies and legos and cars. Mixed. I wore dresses and I wore pants. My parents made a lot of mistakes, but this was something they actually handled well.

They just showed me what was about. I´m not against gender-neutral names, but I think using gender-neutral pronouns for kids is going too far. If your kid has gender dysphoria you will know. Usually they will show clear discomfort with the given pronouns, or with wearing certain clothes, or with playing with a certain toy. And even that does not necessarily indicate a need to transition.

Some people just want to be "less binary". If your kid wants to be "less binary", let them explore. Say you are a Christian and your kid wants to know about Buddhism. Are you going to discourage it, or are you going to foster curiosity in your kid, and allow them to see different perspectives? They will figure out what they want eventually. Give them some credit.

I think kids must be allowed to explore on their own. It´s not good to force gender-neutral pronouns and the like on them. It might just be more confusing. I think, if a kid shows a constant and stable desire to transition, parents should take it seriously. Be supportive. But also be concerned. Transition isn´t a small thing. It´s an exhausting journey and there is no going back.

- end of speech -
Oh shit, it ended up being a speech.

I am a sociologist, and I left graduate school and finished my degree at home because my professor suggested in class that my then fetus might someday be genderqueer or transgender. I was like shut up.

This is an interesting take. Based on what you wrote, we seem to agree. There is a lot of discussion as to whether transgenderism is a mental condition that could be diagnosed from early childhood. Studies have shown that both the brains of transwomen and transmen have a higher match to their "felt gender" than that of cisgender women and cisgender men.

However through time our brain develops, and gender dysphoria is not this constant thing. Just like any other condition, it shows varying degrees over time and in different people. Perhaps - with evolution of science - it would be possible to find an indication that someone might experience dysphoria. Measures could be taken to treat dysphoria - depending on the level of dysphoria they experience.

I for one have and have had a level of dysphoria that I could not mentally tolerate. Transitioning was not an option, it was the only chance I had of living a life free from anguish, and I´m talking a kind of anguish similar to having severe PTSD. However I´m very binary. Plenty of people who are happy to live somewhere between very-male or very-female.

 

[Scarlet13]

@Rad well said!!

 

[anonymous]

Well said, but I don‘t see why showing discomfort when wearing certain clothes must be a sign of trans identity. When I was a girl my parents tried to dress me like a little lady, in dresses and with bows in my hair, and make me behave like a little lady and I hated it.

Once I even cut one of my frilly dresses with a scissors.

Why did I hate it? I think because I associated frilly dresses with boring things like having tea with auntie J and having a boring conversation about the weather, while my father told me to sit straight. While I associated trousers with cooler things like riding.

I grew into a straight Cis women anyway and even grew to like having tea as an older girl... as Long as i don‘t have to talk about the weather... and nowadays I really like bows in my hair. Why? I think because hubby likes it. So I think it is really not about the bow but about what it means to you. At least for me.

 

[Upside Down Eagle]

Well said, but I don‘t see why showing discomfort when wearing certain clothes must be a sign of trans identity.

I did not say that :)

I said it can be a sign of dysphoria. Dysphoria indicates discomfort (in the case of gender dysphoria, with your own body or with assigned gender markers, like clothes or pronouns). Dysphoria doesn´t have to be incapacitating - it can be mild. You could be more of a masculine girl, experience a bit of dysphoria but still be fine with your body.

It´s the sum of all things that can indicate a mismatch between the gender someone experiences they are (like in the way they think and feel) and their biological sex. Not just clothes. Most binary transgender individuals I know (those that transition "all the way") have a deep discomfort not just with clothes, but also with pronouns, and often serious issues stemming from their physical body.

If a kid shows all those signs, I think it would be wise to talk to them. If it were my kid, and they were say seven years old, I would not let them transition (physically). But if they were incredibly unhappy, and in tears everyday, I would talk to them and maybe go through an experimental phase to see if the other gender role/other clothes would be a better match for them.

Only in allowing some space for discovery can you find out if a child is transgender. But physical transition I feel should have an age limit of about 16. Kids that are suspected to be transgender are sometimes given puberty blockers to delay the effects of puberty. This would stop the dysphoria to an extent, and to the age where they (and their parents) can be quite sure that the desire to transition is permanent.

 

[Neverthesame]

Wasn't that long ago they used to teach in these same schools that homosexuality would cause you to become a child molesting paedophile.
They used to peddle that nonsense as fact.

Now they have a new message which is just as backwards. (Gender roles = Physical gender).

This shit needs to stop.
There is no excuse for a school encouraging a child to lie to their parents.

"Don't tell your parents what we're doing here. You'll get in trouble." How many of you have heard this one before, from someone in authority?

Especially when they can't effectively educate the number of kids in the class.
A teacher doesn't have time in a day to spend 2 minutes with each pupil one on one, during regular school hours.
Yet somehow they are to be able to guide another's child through a very serious issue, when they can't spend 5 bloody minutes with a kid who flunked his f*cking algebra test?

How can someone take over (parents don't know remember.) the psychological wellbeing of a child in less than two minutes per day, five days a week for 10 months of ONE year of their lives?