How Do I Beat Alcohol?

[anthony]

I think that is exactly on the money actually Awakening... use, abuse, dependence. There is nothing wrong with using alcohol, as long as you keep it in moderation, being no more than 2 standard drinks daily, 2 alcohol free days a week. Then most will abuse at some points, parties, special occasions, etc, as we know it, binge drinking. Dependence is the only worrisome one... that is where intervention must be placed at some point, and the core of the issue found. 99.9% of people who are alcoholics are not addicted to alcohol, its actually quite a myth, and in fact there is an underlying issue as to why dependence is sought. Poverty is one reason, people living in poverty want the numbness... change the poverty and suddenly they change the requirement to be numb, hence remove dependence on their own / with help.

AA works for some, it causes more problems overall IMHO, because it promotes abstinence vs. learning how to be responsible with alcohol. Abstinence only promotes cravings and desires, so if someone has a really bad day, week or month, and it will happen because we all have those periods in life, then instead of using alcohol they "fall of the wagon" as Americans say, and go from abstinence to abuse, and even back into dependence again if left unchecked.

This brings around a whole bunch of negative feelings, such as remorse, guilt, shame, etc, all of which are not warranted at any time because the person should not be feeling negative about something they can learn to use in moderation vs. now they have obtained a negative thinking pattern of all or nothing (abuse or abstinence). This model is proven to be extremely dangerous, yet AA use it and promote it prolifically as a positive, when in fact it has always been a negative behavior pattern.

 

[dsantos]

"Alcohol by itself is not addictive, it is purely behavioural."

Alcohol can be very addictive. That is why some severe abusers go through the DTs (delerium tremens) when they detox, or are unable to get a drink. Sometimes DTs can be fatal, as with other addictive substance.

For some people, alcohol is not a problem. For those who become psychologically dependent, then behavioral modification might be effective. For others, they become physically dependent -- which can be a result of the psycholigical dependence leading to the physical addiction. People who are physically dependent may need medical support through withdrawal depending on patterns of use. You can google for more info.

Alcohol has an effect on every system in the body, and abuse destroys the liver (cirrhosis), as well as promotes chronic kidney problems.

It is more toxic to the body than cannibis.

 

[anthony]

Hi,

You failed to actually state any evidence within your response. Alcohol by itself is not addictive, it is purely behavioral, as stated by evidenced testing and studies. Pick a study...

Please name the chemical or component that makes alcohol addictive? There isn't one. It doesn't matter what alcohol a person who becomes addicted drinks, beer, wine or spirits, all of which are made from different components, it is the effect, it is the act and feeling obtained, which is behavioral (psychological).

Nobody to my knowledge has debated withdrawals, but withdrawals are irrelevant to addiction. Addiction to substances varies for many reasons, some are physical, some are psychological. Alcohol has no physically addictive properties, hence it is a psychological addiction of behavior, not a chemical dependence within the alcohol itself, as an addict will drink any type of alcohol, as long as it keeps them drunk, which obviously becomes normal for them.

Any addict will endure withdrawals, whether physical or psychological.

Nicotine has chemicals that make "any" system crave it, aka. addictive. Alcohol does not.

Please provide supporting evidence to the contrary, as the above already within majority literature, journals, studies, etc is fact. I am unaware that they have suddenly discovered an addictive chemical in alcohol itself.

 

[dsantos]

Alcohol itself is the component acting on the brain's reward center. So the chemical properties that make alcohol addictive for some people are the chemicals in one's brain acting in response to the alcohol.

Studies by Mary McCaul at the John Hopkins Department of Psychiatry and Behavior, indicate that alcohol acts on neurotransmitters in the brain that release serotonin, and dopamine. Even opioid-receptors are stimulated when alcohol enters the bloodstream. When the reward center is repeatedly flooded with these chemicals, brought about by the presence of alcohol in the blood stream, a physical dependency can result. There is not physical withdrawal, such as delerium tremens, without a biological dependency. Even a hangover is a type of physical withdrawal.

Not all people who drink develop a problem due to the fact that they find it possible to control their drinking behavior. I think it is still unclear how some fall victim to addiction. It is not one isolated component, but a mixture of the environment and biology.

There are a lot of studies on alcoholism and its effect on the nervous system. The pattern is complicated, because behavior and environment are other factors involved. In the article, "A Liberal Account of Addiction", by Bennett Foddy and Julian Savulescu, review positions on alcoholism/addiciton. 'The Disease View' is most popular with neuroscientists. 'The Willpower View' is older and held mostly by psychologists and philosophers. 'The Lay View' posits that people are hedonistic pleasure seekers and must take responsibility for curbing their appetites. Not all views are incompatible, and isolated, each is not quite enough to give complete answers.

 

[anthony]

Not debating alcoholism, all very real. You still didn't answer the question, what is addictive in alcohol?

There is no debate about how alcohol interacts with the human body... but that does not make alcohol addictive. Alcoholism is a psychological response. Why do you think alcoholism is being dealt with in a psychological and behavioral department for? Exactly as I stated in the first place, alcoholism is behavioral... it physically does not have an addictive property within alcohol, making the substance of alcohol, not addictive.

You are arguing and providing all the facts backing my statements, yet arguing against them. Unsure why?

 

[dsantos]

I am arguing because I think you may be mistaken. Arguments do not preclude common ground. I think you and I agree on certain aspects of alcohol abuse. I am not arguing with the fact that alcohol use is psychological. I am arguing with the word "purely". I am arguing about your denial that there is any biological/neurological factor involved with alcoholism.

Since our discussion surrounds the use of the term "psychological" -- it may get confusing, because our psychology resides in our brains, influenced by our environment and our neurotransmitters firing messages around. So purely psychological is a misleading term. When you say "purely psychological", I think you refer to behavior, and the notion that alcohol use is a moral decision. You are saying that willpower and moral reasoning are sufficient to overcome the urge to use alcohol. Is this right?

I am looking at the neurological reactions in the reward system of the brain and how they powerfully influence behavior. I am arguing that alcohol is not something one can just choose to stop using once the neural pathways have been so altered as to cause a grave state of toxicity and the danger of fatality in the absence of the substance.

When any property acts on the reward system in the brain, there is a potential for abuse and addiction. The brain is not a "purely" psychological organ...it is our biology -- complete with chemical reactions going on all the time. That is certainly not "purely" psychological. Perhaps we are splitting hairs, since our psychology really is our brains. So I will use social/behavioral I would agree that the initial decision to drink is a social, or behavioral/environmental one. What happens after that is largely variable, with some people exhibiting an overpowering influence of their biology/chemical reactions over their psychological/behavioral actions.

The addictive property of cigarettes would be nicotine. Nicotine acts on the reward system, making it addictive. The addictive property of coffee is the caffeine. But giving up cigarettes and coffee won't give you DT's.

The addictive property of beer, wine, whiskey, vodka etcetara is alcohol. Alcohol is the addictive component of alcoholic beverages because of the way it acts on the reward system in the brain. If you'd like the scientific name for the property that is acting on the brain, that would be ethanol -- (C2H5-OH). People who become physically dependent are having a very real physiological response to withdrawal and may get DT's in response to the absence of ethanol in their bloodstream.

I am actually surprised that nobody on this board has challenged you on your claim that alcoholism is "purely" behavioral. Can you give any support that delerium tremen's is "purely" psychological?

 

[becvan]

I know this is from wikipedia but... hey its my first stop for info.... I did chop up the article badly.. lol

Delirium tremens (Latin for "shaking frenzy", also referred to as The DTs) is an acute episode of delirium that is usually caused by withdrawal from alcohol, first described in 1813.[1][2] Benzodiazepines are the treatment of choice for delirium tremens (DT).[3]

Withdrawal from sedative-hypnotics other than alcohol, such as benzodiazepines or barbiturates can also result in seizures, DT and death if not properly managed. Withdrawal from other drugs which are not sedative-hypnotics, such as opioids, marijuana, cocaine etc. do not have major medical complications and withdrawal is therefore not life threatening.[4] Withdrawal reactions as a result of physical dependence on alcohol is the most dangerous and can be fatal. It often creates a full blown effect which is physically evident through shivering, palpitations, sweating and in some cases, convulsions and death if not treated.[5]

When caused by alcohol, it occurs only in individuals with a history of alcoholism. Occurrence of a similar syndrome due to benzodiazepines does not require as long a period of consistent intake of such drugs. Benzodiapines are relatively safe in overdose when taken alone however if the overdose includes the use of other sedative drugs especially alcohol, it could lead to dangerous side effects.[6]

In the U.S., fewer than 50% of alcoholics will develop any significant withdrawal symptoms upon cessation of alcohol intake, and of these, only 5% of cases of acute ethanol withdrawal progress to DT.[1] Unlike the withdrawal syndrome associated with opiate dependence, DT (and alcohol withdrawal in general) can be fatal. Mortality was as high as 35% before the advent of intensive care and advanced pharmacotherapy; in the modern era of medicine, death rates range from 5-15%.

Delirium tremens are most common in people who have a history of alcohol withdrawal, especially in those who drink the equivalent of 7 to 8 US pints (3310–3790 ml or 5.83–6.66 imp pt) of beer or 1 US pint (473 ml or 16.65 imp fl oz) of distilled beverage daily. Delirium tremens also commonly affects those with a history of habitual alcohol use or alcoholism that has existed for more than 10 years.[10]

The exact pharmacology of ethanol is not fully understood; however, it is theorized that delirium tremens is caused by the effect of alcohol on the benzodiazepine-GABAA-chloride receptor complex for the inhibitory neurotransmitter GABA. Constant consumption of alcoholic beverages (and the consequent chronic sedation) causes a counterregulatory response in the brain in attempt to regain homeostasis.

This causes downregulation of these receptors, as well as an up-regulation in the production of excitatory neurotransmitters, primarily glutamate, and also such as norepinephrine, dopamine, epinephrine, and serotonin, all of which further the drinker's tolerance to alcohol. When alcohol is no longer consumed, these down-regulated GABAA receptor complexes are so insensitive to GABA that the typical amount of GABA produced has little effect; compounded with the fact that GABA normally inhibits action potential formation, there are not as many receptors for GABA to bind to — meaning that sympathetic activation is unopposed. This is also known as an "adrenergic storm"; the effects of which can include (but are not limited to) tachycardia, hypertension, hyperthermia, hyperreflexia, diaphoresis, heart attack, cardiac arrhythmia, stroke, anxiety, panic attacks, paranoia, and agitation.

This is all made worse by excitatory neurotransmitter up-regulation, so not only is sympathetic nervous system over-activity unopposed by GABA, there is also more of the serotonin, norepinephrine, dopamine, epinephrine, and particularly glutamate. Excitory NMDA receptors are also up-regulated, contributing to the delirium and neurotoxicity (by excitotoxicity) of withdrawal. Direct measurements of central norepinephrine and its metabolites are in direct correlation to the severity of the alcohol withdrawal syndrome.[11] It is possible that psychological (i.e., non-physical) factors also play a role, especially those of infections, malnutrition, or other underlying medical disorders, often related to alcoholism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delirium_tremens

I know here in Canada, most treatment centres require a person to detox first, usually at a detox center. Personally I don't know crap about this... biological vs. psychological stuff. Just found this and thought I would add it as I do know that DT's are a real life threatening situation.

bec

 

[anthony]

Hi Dsantos,

Again, I agree with what you are saying, but you have completely rediverted away from what you argued, and gone off on a completely different tangent in relation to the effects of alcohol on the human body. I am not arguing this, as what you stated is pretty much spot on, with the exception of ethanol being addictive. You are confusing, people become addicted to alcohol vs. alcohol is addictive. Your evidence backs my actual statement, which is the statement from the experts on alcohol, also which you cite, yet your interpretation is completely skewed at a rough guess.

Withdrawals, all very real, and are a biological response to a psychological problem, being alcoholism. Why do you think alcoholism is a psychological disorder? Chain smoking is not a psychological disorder, because it physically contains an addictive property to ANYONE who uses it, not a select few who it interacts with for a feeling or intended purpose.

Please stop diverting into irrelevant, non-challenged areas, which I am not debating or disagreeing with you.

You challenged one statement, that alcoholism is not behavioral. That is it.

Again, why do you think that it is a psychological disorder not a medical disorder? Why do you think it is studied by a department of psychological and BEHAVIORAL science? Because alcoholism is a psychological behavioral disorder, as alcohol itself DOES NOT contain any addictive properties. Select people become addicted to alcohol, alcohol itself is not addictive.

Some people have claimed to have genetic susceptibilities to become addicted to some things in life, food, alcohol, etc. By your skewed interpretation, you are also saying food is addictive, because there is a minority who become behaviorally addicted to food and will eat themselves to death through obesity.

I think you need to lookup what addictive means by definition, because you are completely missing what is, and what is not, classified as addictive within any good.

I am also not arguing that it is easy to change, and in fact, behaviors are proven extremely difficult to change, but this does not negate the facts, alcoholism is a psychological behavioral disorder, and alcohol itself is not by itself, addictive, as you claim. There is zero evidence that alcohol is addictive because it does not contain any one property that makes its such.

Even the wikipedia itself states clearly, people become addicted to alcohol, not the other way round. A person becomes addicted to something through behavior typically, and whilst some geneticists hypothesize that some have genetic predispositions to alcoholism, the same claims they make for PTSD, they find fore and against this argument, which dismays any proven outcome that genetics have a role, and science is very clear on this matter, that no such answer is clear for genetics and addiction. They have good theories, but they are only theories, not empirically evidenced.

As for why nobody has challenged alcohol being addictive, is because you are the only one challenging it. I have no idea why... considering you are going against the entire DSM itself if alcohol itself is addictive vs. people become addicted to it due to behavior. The DSM must be wrong, along with every psychological and medical expert on this planet, and you must be right!

I think you may be a little misguided on definitions and statements, which you may want to review on that aspect of your statements. You seem to be on the money for everything except your perception on alcohol being addictive vs. becoming addicted to alcohol due to behavior. Everything you have said so far, besides this one point, is exactly the same as I have learnt, and seems well researched and stated, and is empirically evidenced. Again, I think you just need to review with some experts on your understanding of becoming addicted to something vs. something being addictive, as you are not going to find that here.

 

[ronin47]

If withdrawal doesn't define addiction then what does!?!?!

 

[anthony]

Food can have withdrawals. An SSRI is not classified as an addictive substance, yet they have withdrawals.

I think it is easier if you read the opening to the wikipedia page on addiction, as it crosses many areas, and has nothing really to do with withdrawals, but is about behavior and the psychological response any substance can have on an individual basis, which can then promote a biological response to the product.

Anything that gives a feeling of numbness, enjoyment, can be classified as more addictive, however; the product itself does not necessarily contain a specific property or substance that is addictive.

A property or substance that is addictive, is something that is injested / taken, and makes a majority of users addicted to it, which has nothing to do with behavior, it is purely because it reacts with the bodies properties to create instant cravings. Nicotine is such a product, as it doesn't matter who injests it, the majority of people who take the substance will become addicted to it, regardless how they injest it (smoking, chewing, patch, etc).

Alcohol does not contain such a property, but it is the feeling it provides of being drunk, that creates a behavioral addiction to continue consuming it.

You will find people who are addicted to exercise. They will become aggressive (withdrawal) if they cannot maintain their regular exercise routine, and feel good within themselves upon completion. People actually die of over-exercise, those who particularly become addicted to it. People say, but exercise is good for you. Yes... but it is good in moderation, it can actually be lethal if addicted, yet no substances are consumed, it is purely a behavioral addiction that has caused the same psychological response to produce a biological reaction in the brain makeup to make them aggressive (withdrawals) if their routine is not maintained and/or they have told themselves they have done good enough in that session.

Being addicted to something vs. something containing addicted properties, are very different things. The first, is typically a minority who become addicted to something, the second, if given to any person, a majority will become addicted. Valium is a good one, it contains a physical property that if given to a group, a majority will be addicted to it. If you gave the same group constant alcohol, only a minority would be addicted, as the property itself does not contain an addictive substance. SSRI's contain no addictive substances, as each are vastly different in their primary ingredient, yet each will promote a withdrawal upon the bodies chemical composition, creating what we see as a withdrawal, usually via mood swings, behavior change, etc.

Hard drugs will create a much worse withdrawal, hence why they are illegal, as they contain physically addictive properties that will send the body into massive withdrawals and heighten the risk of death.

There is a vast difference between how one uses the terminology for addiction.

Everything Dsantos stated is correct to my knowledge, except their interpretation between those two facets, addictive properties vs. becoming addicted to something due to psychological behavior.

 

[AngelaMarie]

Alcohol has been an issue for many in my family. The real truth is, it has been trauma in every situation. It has been a way to numb the physical and mental issues that couldn't be dealt with. I really truly believe that as I deal with the traumas and become stronger I will not feel the need to "run" away so much. I think that I am scared now and feel the need to numb, but I also am seeing progress. I do not like being dependent on anything. Alcohol is an issue for many, weed and drugs are an issue for many, prescription drugs are an issue for many. In the end I just need to figure out how to deal with reality better and care enough to not hurt myself. I do not truly believe any one is an alcoholic, drug addict, etc. I believe it's an inability to be able to deal with painful issues. It hurts to see the potential that some of the members of my bio-family could have had but lost because they couldn't óvercome the pain.

 

[dsantos]

Anthony,

I kept to the topic of why alcohol is addictive for some people. I named the addictive property, which is alcohol, or ethanol as I originally stated. I attempted to explain how it acts on the reward systems of the brain. I cited an article published by the John Hopkins University, as you requested. I am not contradicting myself. Neither am I generalizing. I am actually sticking quite closely to the specific fact that ethanol acts on the reward systems of the brain, creating, for some -- not all, a physical dependence that, at its worse, may create a need for medically supervised detox. In other words, the alcohol itself will not kill the person addicted, the withdrawal will. This is true and documented fact.

Here is a link that supports my statements regarding ethanol and delerium tremens.
http://www.bma-wellness.com/addictions/Alcohol.html
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000766.htm

I am not really interested in arguing this further. I am of the belief that it helps to know the facts. I didn't state any untruths. It is important to stay open to the revision of facts as new knowledge comes about, which I am sure it will in the case of addictions of all kinds.

Best,
dsantos