How Do You Feel About Patriotism?

[sun seeker]

I feel pride for what I've personally done; I feel guilt for what I've personally done. That keeps me busy enough. Feeling it for a whole country is beyond the scope of my energy.

 

[Ronin]

Darn, @sun seeker, where is the button of 'likes it forever'. I'm in dire need here.

 

[Deleted member 28812]

It is a popular misconception that if the state did not provide, then there would be no provision at all.

Could you give an example of who is going to provide the provision for the weak if not the state? Only private charities?

 

[Ronin]

Question, @Lemontree - do strong communities that are cooperative with one another need outside help?
Also, what do you mean when you say 'weak'? I have a vague idea but I disagree any group of people but abusers are weak. Disability and different levels of abilities are all something that can be worked with if there's a will to work with it and respect for people as people. That concept of weakness (I was tempted to say 'steals souls') .... is itself limiting.

 

[Neverthesame]

Billy Connelly said once in a television show he was in. "These people are more Scottish than the Scottish". He was visiting Nova Scotia Canada, during the annual Highland games. He surmised that the reason a whole bunch of Canadians had latched onto the identity of a country most of them had never been to, was due to the short history, as well as the enormous cultural diversity which makes up Canada.

While this may sound like a bad thing. Having a specific cultural group to call ones own, can actually make people more accepting of different cultures sharing the same space.

There are of course examples of this cultural attachment becoming a bad thing. The Serbian Bosnian conflict, Sudan and Rwanda just to name a few.

Patriotism therefore can be viewed as healthy socialization between people who otherwise not interact with one another. Providing a common ground with which to interact, learn, appreciate and grow.

As for my thoughts on it. I appreciate where I am from, I appreciate where I am. England is a special place with a long and interesting history. Canada is also lovely. So big, yet quiet. Nice people, a rich cultural diversity. I like to say I have met someone from everywhere, without leaving the neighborhood. The only thing I dislike about Canada is the damn winter. -50°C should never exist, anywhere. Brrr.

I am also not a fan of St. Patricks day. Not because of the Irish, or the Catholics. But because it is just a day people use as an excuse to give themselves alcohol poisoning, break things and act like all around jack-asses. Or ASBO's (Antisocial behaviour order) if you like the UK definition.

 

[Anarchy]

Could you give an example of who is going to provide the provision for the weak if not the state? Only private charities?

Certainly.
despite the predatory pricing operated by the state sector, and it's violent attacks and smearing of private sector provision as "vigilantes" and "taking the law into your own hands" - as though law were capable of being stolen or owned

There are some very good examples of private sector provision of defence (bear in mind that present day state sector policing was modelled on the colonial "Royal Irish Constabulary" via former colonial governor general of Ireland, Robert Peel's Metropolitan Police of 1829, before that, states generally were not interfering in provision of defense).

Traditionally, defence and dispute resolution services were provided via insurance. How that was organized varied from place to place, for example in Anglo-Saxon Britain, by neighbourhood and via common law, In Medieval Ireland (under the Brehon system of law) people who cooked and ate together mutually insured, and under the still extant Somali Xeer system of customary law (please do not confuse the traditional Somali system of law with the remnants of the soviet client Barre regime, who currently operate as parasitic warlords in the Mogadishu area), it is usually descendants of a common great grandfather who mutually insure, although in each case members were free to seek to join another insurance group.

In each of those systems, justice was compensatory rather than punitive, and the injured party received compensation even if the miscreant was incapable of paying themselves or had absconded.

The defence aspects were also highly effective, as illustrated by Collumkille's (he gets called St Columba in Scotland) defence group defeating the Irish high "king"'s army.

In a modern day setting, defence and dispute resolution and insurance are most likely to be via competing "for profit" organizations, although that certainly does not preclude other arrangements, such as church, fraternity, or other community structures.

Here's a present day American example, from the decaying statist chaos that is Detroit:

“We’ve been hired by three of the most upscale neighborhoods in Detroit to provide 24/7 security services,” Brown proudly informed me during a telephone interview. “People who are well-off are very willing to pay for Lamborghini-quality security services, which means that our profit margin allows us to provide free services to people who are poor, threatened, and desperate for the kind of help the police won’t provide.”

“Unlike the police, we don’t respond after a crime has been committed to conduct an investigation and – some of the time, at least – arrest a suspect,” Brown elaborates. “Our approach is based on deterrence and prevention. Where prevention fails, our personnel are trained in a variety of skills – both psychological and physical – to dominate aggressors without killing them.”

Police typically define their role in terms of what they are permitted to do to people, rather than what they are required to do for them. Brown's organization does exactly the reverse, even when dealing with suspected criminals.
To illustrate, Brown refers to an incident from a security patrol in which he encountered a black teenager “who was walking in a neighborhood at about 3:00 a.m. dressed in a black hooded sweatshirt, doing what is sometimes called `the drift’ – it was pretty clear he was up to something.”

Rather than calling the police – who, given their typical four-hour response time, wouldn’t have arrived soon enough to be of any help, as if helping were part of their job description – Brown took action that was both preventive and non-aggressive.
“I told him, `There are criminals here who might rob you, so you’ll get free bodyguard service anytime you’re in the neighborhood,’” Brown related to me. “I also asked for his name and personal information for a `Good person file’ that would clear him with the cops next time he decided to go jogging in a black hoodie a three in the morning. He didn’t have to give me that information, of course, but he told me what I needed to know – and we’ve never seen him there again.”...

Here's their website http://www.threatmanagementcenter.com/
and Will Grigg's article that I took the quote from http://freedominourtime.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/call-anti-police-ending-states-security.html (I've previously checked with Mr Grigg, and he has confirmed that he is happy to have his work quoted at length, so long as it is correctly attributed)

Simillar outfits are very widely present in South Africa, and provide 24 hour armed response.

As an example of volunteer community organizations, I would reference the "Deacons for Defense" who defended poor American black communities (and white civil rights activists) from the depradations of racist predators whether private or state sector (the dividing lines between klan and state sector cop seem to have been very confusing).

and the current Mexican village militias. Again the dividing lines between drug cartel thugs and state sector cops appear to be very blurred, and perhaps only varies according to what time of day or night it is.

Like the American southern black communities' "Deacons" and the Mexican village militias, private sector initiatives often have to operate under the state system's radar, and suffer attacks from state sector cops.

References for traditional insurance and dispute resolution services would include Bruce Benson's "The enterprise of Law"
The Somali Xeer system of customary law is covered by the late Michael van Notten's wonderful book "Law of the Somalis"
George Ayittey's "indigenous African institutions" also covers Somali Xeer and references other traditionally anarchist peoples, the Kikuyu of the Mount Kenya Highlands and the Igbo of the Niger Delta. (Ayittey has at least one TED talk)

There is also some very interesting research going on currently at Newcastle University, into low cost private schools in the third world slums. Again, these are usually flying in stealth mode, under the state sector's radar, but are often preferred by parents, even when "free" state sector schools are available. IIRC, Prof James Tooley has some TED talks discussing his work.

as for anarchy working quietly and peacefully in Europe here are two short essays: https://mises.org/library/anarchy-aachen
and
http://dailyanarchist.com/2015/03/11/the-anarchist-republic-of-cospaia/

 

[Neverthesame]

as you say that you like Germany and you like to be a German - people call you a "Nazi"

Not that long ago I worked with a man from Bavaria (if I recall correctly), he is former Luftwaffa. At some point in conversation, I believe it was around remembrance day. He mentioned how one of the first things he noticed living in Canada, was the way some of the local people reacted to him being German. He said "I just don't understand zis. Vhy do zees people obsess about the var? Don't zhey realize the var ended 60 years ago?" to which I replied (my German is horrible, sorry for butchering this) "Ze Volken Geheirn ist Kaputt."

No idea why that happens though. Always makes me think of that old Faulty Towers sketch, "Remember Basil. The Germans are here, don't talk about the war!"

 

[Anrish]

@Neverthesame : I think I know what you tried so say in German to that man. And I totally agree with you. It's even worse in Europe or in Germany itself. Don't dare to say anything like you expect foreigners to adapt in this country - you're already a Nazi. And when you say something against Jews, because they still claim lots of things based on what Germany did during the war...it's so crazy. It's so long ago, but Germans still have to bow because of that...

 

[Deleted member 28812]

Question, @Lemontree - do strong communities that are cooperative with one another need outside help?
Also, what do you mean when you say 'weak'?

Different groups could be considered weak or vulnerable, such as the elderly who have no children, disabled people, the poor. You speak about strong communities but what about those who are no member of such a community - like the elderly childless widow whose friends died from old age?

 

[Deleted member 28812]

I do understand why the jews are still bitter. There are still jews of the elderly generation who had unspeakable horrors happening to them and there are the children of those and of course they are bitter - how else should they feel?
But one should keep in mind that not everybody back then was a Nazi, there were people who voted for different parties - the majority actually. There were many who bitterly regretted voting for the NSDAP later but then they could not vote them out of power anymore.
There were people who were sentenced to death for opposing the Nazis, there were people who risked their lifes hiding jews.

We must also keep in mind that the people back then had no free information, many believed the lies they were told such as "poland started the war by attacking Germany".

I felt really sad when an english newspaper had an article about the anniversary of the bombing of one of our cities and the commentors just acted like everybody deserved it - including little children - but then that was the Daily Mail. So what does one expect and I do understand that they probably lost family members.

It's difficult for people from other countries to just "forget about the war" because in all honesty I think Germans traumatized them and the elderly who had this happening to them are still around. It happened within living memory.

Sorry for derailing the thread and making it all about Germany.

@Anarchy: Thanks for the lenghty reply. I will have a look at it when I have more time.

 

[Deleted member 28812]

My experience with people from other nations has been mostly positive. I went to Russia and to Poland, very beautiful countries and actually do have friends from both countries and they do not mention the war very much - we joke about communism though.
I like the traditional Russian songs so much, among the most beautiful of the world.

In another thread I spoke about the rapes the Russian soldiers inflicted on the German civvies but I never felt like I hated the Russian people. The Russians I do know are just genuinelly nice guys. I don't like the rapist though but В семье́ не без уро́да. There will always be some black sheep in every country.

I hope that there is not another war on the horizon. How do you all think about Ukraine. I would hate our country to end up in a war with ur Russian brethren.

 

[Fadeaway]

I don't get it at all. The problem is that if you say that you don't have blind patriotism in the U.S. that you hate the U.S. Can't you feel neutral? In the U.S. we have two major political parties. Every one excepts you to be devoted to one or the other. People act the same way about their political party as they do their country. I personally do not get. I just hate that people insist that if I don't belong to their party, I must be one of those evil bad guys that belong to the other party.

There are good things to very country and bad things to every country, plain and simple. "Different than us" does not mean "we are better than them" It means that there are different ways of doing everything and they all have their pros and cons.

So I guess, I do not feel patriotic about a land mass, I do feel loyal to mankind though.