News Human Rights For Sex Offenders

[trytothinkdeep]

I do not agree that "wrongful conviction" should not be taken into consideratin when deciding to make punishments more harsh. In fact, that is one of my points in posting here. There are so many inmates in prison who are innocent which has been demonstrated by the Innocence Project, that to for anyibody to recommend that punishments be more harsh, or that human rights should not be allowed, these people are harming the innocent people who are inmates and labeled "Sex O;ffenders."

 

[trytothinkdeep]

P.P.S. Oh yes, and then, by their very own definition, they aren't humans... they are animals, hunters... So that's really Humanist to protect animals.

I'm sorry, but getting the electric chair, or the firing squad, or the poison, is far more humane than what these perverts do to their victims. So no, it is not stooping to their level, I'm sorry you can't tell the difference.

<quote only and following post merged by Nicolette>

No, Jimmy Joe, they are humans. Most inmates incarcerated for sex crimes are not even charged with rape, but with indecent liberties, which is "touching" inappropriately. If you wish to have this punished by the electric chair, or a firing squad, or poison, that is so sick. Animals are more moral than some humans, they kill to eat, not for the thrill of it as some humans advocate.

 

[Hashi]

This has gone off topic. This thread:

- Is not about what defines a sex offence
- is not about innocence or guilt
- is not about possible wrongful conviction
- is not about possible failings of the US legal system (or any legal system)
- is not about what's constitutional in the US
- is not about sentencing
- is not about whether certain offences are harmful, or to what extent
- is not about the treatment of dependents or loved ones
- is not about the effect on dependents or loved ones.

If anyone thinks the above things ought to be discussed, then speaking as the OP I ask you to start your own thread. Please don't take this one off topic.

As far as this thread is concerned, the law is a given. That's not the question in this thread. The question is about a personal ethical conflict - believing deeply in human rights but, having got PTSD from trauma including sex offences, struggling to maintain that belief in the case of sex offenders.

Please, no more off topic posts. You can always start a new thread if you want to talk about other things.

 

[billie]

Definitely not human in my eyes and never will be. The only place for pedos is a great big hole in the ground.

 

[Falvaduran]

Firstly, no one is trying to say that sexual offenders do not deserve punishment. However, they do deserve the right to serve their prison sentence without the threat of being murdered simply by going into the general population in the prison or stepping into the wrong crowd at the prison yard. All humans have value, all humans should have rights, and all human criminals should be seen as rehabilitated and their behavior corrected upon getting out of prison. After all, in the United States, the organization in charge of the prison system is called the Department of Correction, not the Department of Letting Bad Guys Rot and Get Beaten and Raped. If the jail system in place is not doing everything to correct and rehabilitate each and every prisoner, then that system needs to be shut down and another, better system should be created with that focus in mind.

Lastly, I see a lot of threads here saying that sex offenders cannot be rehabilitated, and other posts stating that most sex offenders reoffend and abuse more children upon being released; however, in the USA, the aforementioned Dept. of Correction recently released a report stating Sex Offenders have a recidivism rate of only 1.8 percent. For those who don't understand what that means, sex offenders have the lowest rate of recommitting a crime than all other criminals. Murderers are more likely to murder, thieves are more likely to keep stealing from you, and drug dealers are more likely to keep giving illegal substances to your kids. However, no one wants a registry of where murderers and drug dealers live, instead they are too focused on protecting themselves from the one and only type of criminal who truly wants to put their mistakes in the past and live a quiet and peaceful lifestyle.

Anyway, that's just food for thought. If you continue to do your research, I believe many people will understand how truly cruel and unjustly sex offenders are treated even after they've served their prison sentence.

 

[Muzikluvr]

I see I'm a little late to the discussion, and I didn't read through all 76 responses.

I am reminded of Sam Harris' speech on the Illusion of Free Will, which I understand from my own trauma recovery. When I recovered my trauma memories, they all came back from the perspective of my abusers and enablers who all blamed me. My guardians blamed me for making them miserable with my misery, and blamed me for seeking out more occasions with the abuser. The abuser called me gullible, or eager. I was so filled with shame for being victimized repeatedly that I could hardly look at myself. Until I stopped reliving what happened through the perception of my abusers, my enablers, and my present self... and started considering my age at the time, my experiences before each trauma which contributed to my perspective, my typical attitude toward others, my expectations of others, and why, why, why I think the way I do and did during those particular events.

All that self analysis led me to understand myself, and accept myself, and eventually to place the blame appropriately where it belonged. I don't have to hate anyone involved in order to see what each of us are to blame for and whether that blame should still carry shame with it or not. My mother laughed at me when "I got myself raped again". I was a child. I could hate her for that, but I understand her childhood enough to know why she did most of the things that she did.

So, with these personal experiences of trying to understand why, for instance, I seemed to have volunteered to be raped when I was in college, I can absolutely agree with Sam Harris when he says that if he were to trade places with a pedophile.... then, he'd be a pedophile. He couldn't bring his current understanding, DNA, life experience, sensibility, etc... with him in the trade. He would have a pedophile's DNA, life experiences, understanding, sensibility, etc... and he couldn't make a different choice than the one he traded places with if he wanted to because he wouldn't have the resources to make a different choice. Hating someone for what they do is pointless. Hating what they do is beneficial. Punishing someone for being who they are is destructive to society. Punishing someone for what they do is beneficial to society.

Our brains present thoughts to us. We don't think for ourselves. We choose from the thoughts which our brain presents. Our choices are limited. When asked to name our favorite country, we don't think of every country in the world. We think of some of the ones we're familiar with, but how many times are you asked to name a favorite something, and afterwards you hear a better answer than the one you gave... you just didn't consider it until someone else mentioned it? Your brain limits your choices.

When you make choices, thoughts pop into your mind about what you value. I can't tell you how many times I've made a choice out of fear. Fear of being humiliated. Fear of losing face, being shamed. And, I've just done some really stupid things to avoid that... well, if you know my life story, you can draw a direct correlation from my traumas to why I keep making that mistake over and over again. I have a better handle on it now that I've become self-aware, because I can head it off just as soon as the fear pops into my brain. I can recall that the fear was created under special circumstances, which are not happening now, and set aside the emotion long enough to open myself up for more creative choices to come to mind.

That's the value of self-analysis, of reliving the past and recreating one's core beliefs and values. It offers your brain the chance to offer different choices before you go off half-cocked. But, what do we offer pedophiles? If they come forward and ask for help? How many feel comfortable explaining what they're going through and safe enough to re-evaluate all that may be contributing to their impulses? Once they're caught, and sentenced, and serving time.... we take out all our anger on them. We justify ourselves to hate them. We announce it everywhere. We say, raped in prison? Good! Every day, I hope! And, all those young pedophiles listening to us understand that they have to hide themselves... even if they want help. They're not going to get it here.

By considering your own decision making process, you might find more compassion for those who are struggling with things you are lucky enough to never understand. Check out how limited you are in solving your problems before you impulsively make the same mistakes again and again. And then, contribute some solution based ideas to make our justice system about reformation of individuals and protection for society's sake, and nothing about vindictive revenge.

Maybe start with other criminals... figure out how to treat them like human beings... restore their humanity... see that it benefits us all if they don't feel like animals or outsiders... admit that most of the good stuff in your life is there by chance and opportunity which you were capable of seizing because of your DNA, and history... notice that most of the bad things in your life are there by chance too... in the wrong place at the wrong time... an easy mark for some reason. Be glad you're not a pedophile, hate what they do to others, but where do you get off self-righteously stating that you're better than them when you are just lucky not to be one of them? Life is certainly about choices, but how were your choices limited in your life?

That said, and now no need to hate them as humans, I believe we need to respect their humanity while protecting any possible future victims from crossing their paths. If that means life sentences for some, how do we determine which ones? If any are really capable of being rehabilitated, how do we do it, and where do we test that they can be trusted? What drives pedophilia? What motivates pedophiles? Do you see how the conversation is able to advance when you stop thinking that you did something right by not becoming a pedophile?

Shame and revenge have no place in our justice system because neither improves the welfare of our society as a whole. We all suffer when we shame someone, or seek revenge on someone. Instead of working toward positive solutions, we tear down a person as if we're not all connected somehow to that action. You don't know what your negativity will create in this world. Shame is a destructive concept.

Sexual assault has been used in war for centuries to destroy a society's family ties. African boys are being forced to rape their sisters before taken by rebels to be trained to wield assault rifles in other villages against other boys and their families. Muslim women who are virgins are not allowed to be punished by death in a court of law, but their guards are allowed to rape her, and once she's not a virgin anymore, then she can suffer the pain of death for whatever crime she committed.

Anyone who supports the rape culture in prisons is part of the problem, and needs to get out of the way so we can create a solution.

 

[frosty134]

I'm not sure why I'm posting this, or what I want from replies (if there are any).

I work in the field o...

I know of a corrections officer in Canada, who was a victim as you were, but works in the corrections system to do the work that others won't. He works with sex offenders. If you will, he mentors them, gives them a perspective from the victim, but he also hears what the offenders are saying. He has seen similarities in personality problems within himself and victims, similarities which at a younger age could not be diagnosed and treated. It took guts for him to take the path he did, but he has been at it for several years. He even mentors those offenders who have been released back into society/

 

[Sex Offender]

I am a former abuser and a former sex offender, a former abuser of children, and I wanted to comment.

FIRST, there is a lot of misinformation in this thread. Most offenders have, on average, about 3-7 victims. The ridiculous numbers of victims other sources suggest are wrong, and have been shown to be wrong by studies completed on these studies. Most sex offenders, after treatment, actually have low rates of recidivism. This, of course, does not include those who enacted acts of physical violence during the commission of their crimes. Such persons, be they sex offenders or not, who have demonstrated such callous indifference towards the physical suffering of fellow human being should never, ever see the light of day again. This is a sad but true necessity; we can't have people running around who care nothing for the suffering of others.

SECOND, sex offenders are human. Because we are human, we are entitled to human rights. Yes, there is something to be said for "experiencing the fear that their victims felt" but that does not necessitate invoking that fear and pain on them. What we are talking about is learning empathy; not learning how to be tortured.

THIRD, anyone who says that sex offenders can't be "rehabilitated" are flat out wrong. The correct terminology is that "sex offenders can be cured". In that statement, that means that those afflicted with pedophilia, like myself, can learn to exist in society in a safe manner. We don't "always reoffend". We have learned ways to arrange our lives in such a manner as to reduce risk; we have learned that the decisions we make today (what friends to have, where to go, when to go, where to work, etc) determines if we offend tomorrow or three months from today or three years from today. Those, like myself, will always suffer (and I use the word "suffer" because many of us actually have a conscience) sexual attraction towards children. But we don't have to act on it. We recognize the power that this has over our lives and perceptions, and plan our lives accordingly. So no. We can not be "cured". But most of can be "rehabilitated".

FOURTH, someone mentioned that we shouldn't be put in prison. I disagree. Ill or not, one must be held accountable for their actions. If our actions are harmful to others, we must pay the consequences of those actions.

FIFTH, it is in the best interest of our prospective societies that sex offenders be rehabilitated. Subjecting us unnecessarily to shame and alienation contributes the the very same and negative emotional effects that led to our first offenses. Most nations don't impose mandatory life or death penalties for sexual offenders. As treatment and rehabilitation has revealed positive and encouraging results, such steps are unnecessary and often counterproductive; as it increases the desperation of the offender (raising the stakes of possible violence towards the victim in an effort to silence them) and decreases the likelihood that victims and those who know of a given crime will step forward. As we will eventually be back in society, among women and children, it is imperative that we be offered the treatment that we -- and you -- need for us to have.

If I had my way, I would set up prisons specifically for sexual offenders. We would endure the same punishments as any other criminal within these institutions. But these institutions would also have sex offender treatment programs going on, as well as research. Being around only sex offenders, the offender feels less threatened in discussing their crimes and their motivations. We would be free to talk openly and honestly about those issues that helped us make such atrocious decisions. We could do this without fear of retaliation, which would, I think, be a boon to the effectiveness of treatment, helping us be a substantially lesser threat to those wtith whom we share this world. But that is only my subjective opinion.

FOR THOSE OF YOU who have endured sexual abuse, I can not find the words to express my grief, regret ad empathy. No one should be treated like that. No one. Ever. Not a day goes by that I don't think about and grieve for that little girl who did nothing wrong and only loved me. I think often of my Momma, now deceased, who was a victim of a very cruel and ill man; and how she never, ever fully recovered from that damage this did to her soul. I empathize with your anger and feel it too. I empathize with your disgust and feel it too. I hope beyond hope that each of you find that peace and happiness that was so cunningly or brutally stolen from you.

For my part: I am happy that I was caught. I am happy that I went to prison (so that I could work on my deviancies while posing no harm and threat to others during this process). I am happy that I got the help everyone so desperately needed for me to receive. I hope that maybe, possibly, you may find a small amount of hope and solace in my words.

 

[Pietro]

@Sex Offender:

I give you credit for having the courage to create your above post. Very enlightening, and a difficult, but important, perspective to know.

I have one issue with what you wrote, under your "THIRD" point, regarding self-disciplining. I understand that this is possible, but, at the same time, there's always the potential for returning to the behavior. Unlike an addiction, where "falling off the wagon" may be hurtful only to the addict, the same cannot be said for a sex offender. Thus, how do we protect society from that possibility? How can we feel comfortable allowing rehabilitated sex offenders into our neighborhoods knowing that there's always a possibility that they might revert?

This is a difficult situation. As a society, we should want, and applaud, the commitment of a sex offender towards rehabilitation. As you said, they too are human, and have often suffered terrible abuse themselves. But, at the same time, we also need to protect our children. How to reconcile the two? I don't have an answer to this, myself.

 

[InvisibleSun]

I think my problem is that I don't see them as human. I feel that they chose not to be. If it didn't suit them to be human then, why should they suddenly be allowed to be human now?

I don't see them as human either..I guess since they are technically human beings they should be given food and water but that's about it. If we even have to keep them alive. I personally think all sex offenders deserve to die, because the minute you chose to violate and sexually degrade an individual is the moment you lose the right to live in a civilized society. It is a crime against humanity and you surrender yours when you commit such a vile act..a true crime against the human spirit These people are scum who will almost always re offend..I have no compassion for how they are treated in prison. I think protecting them is ridiculous. Release them into the lions den..let the predator become the prey. And suffer as much as their victims did...some may say I'm just an angry sexual assault survivor. Your damn right I am..and I should be.

I live in a country where 98% of rapists walk free..mine did. A society that embraces rape culture and perpetuates blaming the victim. She asked for it, she was drunk, she shouldn't have worn such a short skirt. I, personally, was humiliated and traumatized at the hands of the American legal system.. yet he smiled as he walked out the courtroom. My pain was made a mockery of. I was just there to pad the pockets of the judicial system. Sell a little bit of weed and you're in jail for 7 years, rape someone, and you're out in 3. 1.5 on "good behavior." It's a f*cking joke. There is no true justice for rape victims..none for those who didn't have a choice..

So why should there be justice for those who rape?!

 

[joeylittle]

How can we feel comfortable allowing rehabilitated sex offenders into our neighborhoods knowing that there's always a possibility that they might revert?

It's a fair question. Just to say, though, where does one draw the line here? We are currently comfortable allowing convicted rapists into our neighborhoods as well. We release many people from the prison system, after they've spent the years that the legal system required - I am hard pressed to argue that releasing a heroin dealer is less dangerous than releasing a sex offender, when the heroin dealer has equal potential to destroy an innocent life. Before anyone jumps on this - I'm not so much trying to compare crimes and their potential damage; rather, to point out that we have a system whereby people go to prison, and then they leave prison. The drug dealer, the pimp, the rapist - the efforts made towards their rehabilitation are grossly small compared to the efforts made towards (and by) sex offenders.

Just a different dimension to that question.

 

[InvisibleSun]

This is such a fascinating thread and I've come back and read several different perspectives that have really been interesting. So many larger societal issues at hand than just human rights. So many more important questions to pose. In a world that has taken the love out of sex, replaced it with porn, objectified our women, and sexualized our children, it should be of no shock that our world is rampant with sexual deviants. This is not their fault.

@Sex Offender, I also give you credit for sharing your perspective on such a controversial subject. There are two sides to every coin and it's important that society have a better understanding of what's going on in the mind of people who offend. My feelings are no different about sex offenders, but I now have a better understanding now of how one might feel.

Yes, there is something to be said for "experiencing the fear that their victims felt" but that does not necessitate invoking that fear and pain on them. What we are talking about is learning empathy; not learning how to be tortured.

Empathy is the capacity to understand or feel what another person is experiencing from within the other person's frame of reference, i.e., the capacity to place oneself in another's shoes. I cannot understand how one can feel empathy for another person without having a first hand understanding of their experience. I can sympathize with a war vet, but I can't truly empathize with them because I've never been to war. Rape goes well beyond fear..and into feelings that you can only understand if you have been assaulted. You may be angry, or sad, or stricken by our pain...but you will never be able to empathize..

I don't want to invalidate or diminish your feelings..just trying to make a point. Thank you for sharing your perspective and I hope you are able to find healing.

And most importantly, I hope we are all able to find peace.