Other Let's talk about torture.

[Jade-]

I'm not sure I belong in this thread but here I am.

As a young child, I think the worst was my abusers using pliers on my clit, pulling yanking and stretching . I didn't even know what a clit was at that age. I was told something was wrong with me and it needed to be removed.

I wasn't held against my will physically but I believe mentally I was, with threats. Which I won't go into right now.

There were many other things that were done to me. I guess although I knew they felt torturous I never really considered it as torture but it was.

As a side note, I wrote a note to my mom and asked what a clit was after the first time that happened to me and slid the note under her bedroom door. She wrote a note back that said "it's purely erotic". I had no clue what that meant at that age.

 

[Weemie]

Every-freaking-day is a struggle.

I hear you. News articles are the worst for me. It has become imperative at this stage of my healing to avoid reading the news because it is almost always filled with violence & conflict.

As a young child, I think the worst was my abusers using pliers on my clit, pulling yanking and stretching .

I am very sorry that happened to you. As it's my thread I say yes, you certainly belong here. You may gain some useful information out of researching a phenomenon known as Non-State Torture. This is whereby torture is inflicted as a definition of extreme actions, rather than a definition of who inflicts the torture ("under the color of the law" as defined by the TVRA).

 

[Freida]

T and I were talking last week about the loneliness that comes with surviving torture. How it's something you have to hide because you know that the people around you would never be able to handle hearing about it. How it sets up a cycle of shame because it seems so unreal, so big, that you doubt your own mind, so talking about it to others isn't an option. How guilt drives you into a hole, because you believe you can never be redeemed for what you did or didn't do to survive.

The whole "we don't compare traumas' thing came up and surprisingly t said, well, sort of.
It's not that trauma A can't be compared to trauma B.
It's that trauma has it's own categories. A child victim of sex trafficking has a different experience than an adult victim of medical malpractice, who is different than a survivor of a terrorist attack. All are traumas, all have similar symptoms, but the background of the traumas may need to be treated differently.

Her opinion is that torture has it's own category in the traumasphere. While it's true that two torture survivors shouldn't compare "who had it worse," torture as a whole IS separate from other kinds of trauma. It has different parameters and different treatment paths. Which I can sort of see now (Yay! Freida catches up with the rest of the class!!) because since I've accepted that label she has changed her approach. Not in huge ways, but it's noticeable. Or maybe finally accepting that label has made it easier to talk to -- to her.

But at the same time it has also made the loneliness and isolation so much more noticeable. Because I can see how it separates my own traumas into categories. One category I'm ok with talking about, ok with sharing. But the other? Can only be spoken in hushed voices or closed rooms. Must be hidden, and I'm not even sure why anymore.

I had someone ask me recently, "now that you have gone to these retreats does it help by letting you hear other's stories? Y'know, the whole "wow I didn't have it that bad" thing?"

I looked at her and said, "not really. Usually I'm the one they are comparing themselves too." And it kind of pissed me off. Because she has no idea what my stories are, but she automatically assumed that they weren't that bad. And yet if I had replied "well I'm the one who survived torture" it would have completely changed our relationship dynamics.

Because people don't understand the concept of torture. Hell I barely understand it.

No idea where i'm going with this...
Maybe its all just back to loneliness. Just wanting someone to hear, even though I know I can't tell.
Feeling like a freak because I don't fit in anywhere unless I keep quiet.
But, then I remind myself, I'm on the island with y'all. So there are people who get it. Which make me so sad - for all of us

 

[Weemie]

Maybe its all just back to loneliness. Just wanting someone to hear, even though I know I can't tell.

Sometimes I wonder if this in and of itself is a PTSD response. Like no, I can't tell. But that's not where I want to be. Someday I would like to be open about my experiences to my community. To be able to stand up and name them and show the statistics and provide the resources and speak the unspeakable.

Because people don't, and I've always been a lifelong contrarian. People don't and the silence suffocates and like, f*ck that? But we were told over and over again, don't tell. Don't tell, don't tell, don't tell. We experience over and over again the harsh and negative and punitive realities of telling.

Just look at where we are with rape culture and sexual assault and #MeToo. It took a generation of women coming forward for this shit to become somewhat more normalized. Well, maybe it's time we start #TortureToo. Well, or something that sounds less feckin' stupid. Heh.

 

[Freida]

ya -- I couldn't decide where to put this because it fits this thread, the dehuminization one and my own diary

So I put it here to see if maybe y'all can relate?

How he "looked "at me is really bothering me today.

The curious look. Like I was an interesting bug or something. Not an object, not a human.
Just something interesting to watch and see what it does when you poke it or burn it or hurt it. No interaction at all, just studying me to see how I respond to things

The smug look. Usually found with forced compliance, when I finally gave in to demands or followed instructions. He was always so pleased with himself for making it my "choice"

The blank look. Like I wasn't even there. Usually came with "your an object play time" but it freaked me out every.single.time. Made me question my actual existence.

The angry look. Made me want to curl up and cry. Why I hate football -- when the game made him angry it meant someone had to be punished. Or if I disobeyed. Or I was too noisy/not noisy enough/fighting too hard/not fighting hard enough. Or if something in the universe pissed him off in general. Didn't see it a whole lot - I think he felt like it meant he was not in control.
But, of course, that pissed him off even more so....punishment.

The happy look. Holy f*ck. That one came up when everything worked like he wanted it to. Makes me want to puke

I don't know why this is suddenly a thing for me. I mean, maybe I just didn't expect someone who tortures to have that many emotions? In the movies they are always so stoic right? You don't see them giggling like little kids with a new toy, so maybe it's just so unexpected?

Anyone else got thoughts on this?

 

[prynne]

ya -- I couldn't decide where to put this because it fits this thread, the dehuminization one and my own diary

So I put it here to see if maybe y'all can relate?

How he "looked "at me is really bothering me today.

The curious look. Like I was an interesting bug or something. Not an object, not a human.
Just something interesting to watch and see what it does when you poke it or burn it or hurt it. No interaction at all, just studying me to see how I respond to things

The smug look. Usually found with forced compliance, when I finally gave in to demands or followed instructions. He was always so pleased with himself for making it my "choice"

The blank look. Like I wasn't even there. Usually came with "your an object play time" but it freaked me out every.single.time. Made me question my actual existence.

The angry look. Made me want to curl up and cry. Why I hate football -- when the game made him angry it meant someone had to be punished. Or if I disobeyed. Or I was too noisy/not noisy enough/fighting too hard/not fighting hard enough. Or if something in the universe pissed him off in general. Didn't see it a whole lot - I think he felt like it meant he was not in control.
But, of course, that pissed him off even more so....punishment.

The happy look. Holy f*ck. That one came up when everything worked like he wanted it to. Makes me want to puke

I don't know why this is suddenly a thing for me. I mean, maybe I just didn't expect someone who tortures to have that many emotions? In the movies they are always so stoic right? You don't see them giggling like little kids with a new toy, so maybe it's just so unexpected?

Anyone else got thoughts on this?

I definitely relate. The happy and smug looks especially make me nauseous. I've been thinking about it for a while and I can't explain why other than because it's so f*cked up. Yeah, in a way because it's unexpected. No normal, safe human being responds to someone else's severe pain and terror with happiness. When someone does that our brain panics because it knows something is very wrong and this person is a danger to us.

I don't know. I hated knowing that I, or specifically my suffering, was the reason they felt good. It's just f*cked.

Angry looks stick in my head because I know that seeing that look means I'm in danger. I'm always looking out for it.

I think the running theme may be about the messages the facial expressions told us about ourselves. Curious = your pain is entertaining, blank = I don't care about your suffering and you don't exist, angry = you're in danger, happy and smug= your pain is entertaining and you did exactly what I wanted to do/I am in control of you. We remember the expressions and internalize what they told us about ourselves the same way we do with their words

 

[Weemie]

maybe I just didn't expect someone who tortures to have that many emotions? In the movies they are always so stoic right? You don't see them giggling like little kids with a new toy, so maybe it's just so unexpected?

Anyone else got thoughts on this?

I actually have an answer for this if you're looking for one. I think it's because most people don't actually understand the nature of psychopathy and sadism. We expect that these people lack emotions altogether, but they don't. They just lack empathy. They still have an emotional experience, it's just entirely self-focused.

It's probably more muted than our emotional experiences (and probably more muted than yours since my empathy is less developed than most people's) because empathy contributes to emotionality in general, but yeah! He's having emotions, he's feeling pleasure or self-satisfaction or anger.

Those are all legitimate feelings, they're just happening because he's gaining pleasure from harming you. I'm sorry that's not exactly an empathetic response of my own, but maybe the information will assist in some way. In terms of relating? Yeah, absolutely.

Particularly the the sense that you're being studied like an experiment. It contributes to that feeling of dehumanization because to them, you're not a whole, thinking, feeling person. Like I mentioned in my OP on the dehumanization thread, it's what happens when your sentience and individuality is completely disregarded.

 

[Freida]

We remember the expressions and internalize what they told us about ourselves the same way we do with their words

yikes. I think you nailed it.

@Weemie that was brilliant. Self focused. yep. wow.

 

[Ice_Fire]

Hi everyone,

Hope it’s okay to resurrect this thread?

I have a very visceral reaction to the word torture. My automatic response is “well that doesn’t apply to me because it wasn’t state sanctioned”. I wasn’t a soldier or a refugee or anything like that. So my reaction is that my trauma can’t possibly go as far as to be counted as torture because the environment doesn’t qualify.

And yet. And yet…I remember the first time my first therapist said “do you realise you were tortured?” And I kind of snorted and went “nah no sorry I’m clearly exaggerating it wasn’t that”. Well, forced to stand all night, naked, at the end of my bed; Night after night, probably counted. The water boarding I guess does. The…degrading things like being denied access to a toilet. The stuff so sadistic that I still can’t accept it was true, and try to trick myself into thinking that I’m just so messed up I am exaggerating still. Like the vegetable peeler up my you know what. The stuff that is so, this is the wrong words, but bizarre and in some ways, exceptionally creative methods of causing pain/injury/near death.

I can relate to the loneliness. The inability to really be able to explain some of the things. To those close to me who know some of my trauma, the generic I was raped/beaten as a child. But I can never begin to talk about the stuff that is beyond that. Other than here. There’s an invisible line of propriety of what’s acceptable to disclose and that goes in layers depending how close the person is, and/or how equipped they are to hear it but for me there’s always that last layer of things which, I’ve only briefly even talked about in my diary that just seems too out there for anyone who hasn’t experienced the uniquely creative ways people can hurt others to talk about.

My apologies if none of that made sense.

Basically I feel torn over the term. It encompasses a lot of what I would put in my ‘beyond society’s reasonably understood to be true/to happen’ and firmly into the ‘inventive’ category. And yet I still get the major ick reaction to applying it to myself.

 

[Friday]

Hope it’s okay to resurrect this thread?

Always. At least IMO. The same way as if there were only 2 threads involving child abuse or rape, in this forum. Instead of thousands.

My automatic response is “well that doesn’t apply to me because it wasn’t state sanctioned”.

None of mine was.

The state sanctioned thing is weird to me.

Attempting to draw a line between people using it as a Shakespearean metaphor? I grok. Totally get that, and periodically get tetchy about it. But? As? Torturous is different from actual torture. But gangs use torture. Cartels use torture. Individuals use torture. That there isn’t a UN recognized “group” involved? Just sets me to laughing. Because seeeeriously. For f*cks sake. How f*cking naive can someone be?

But? I’ve also heard the Shakespearean version used for cutting in line, delayed test results, and run of the mill (not meaning pointless, the opposite truly, but expected) domestic violence and child abuse.

There’s an invisible line of propriety of what’s acceptable to disclose and that goes in layers depending how close the person is, and/or how equipped they are to hear it

True that.

Basically I feel torn over the term.

IMO?

I’ve been tortured. Both state and NON state sanctioned.

It’s the same act. Same series of acts. Employed with a different level of expectation. Sometimes the non-state is far more practiced. Sometimes they’re idiots with no f*cking clue.

With the same end result. Ish. If it’s for training there’s a distance implied. And, yes. I’ve been trained to withstand torture. I don’t include those experiences in my T-File. Because they’re not. They’re people/groups who have a vested interest in keeping me both alive, and relatively functional, at the end of it. And my first time trained to withstand torture? I’d already been tortured, twice. Once, by people who had no end game except for the application of pain to one who had no recourse, and once in a legit circumstance. As far as legit goes. Meaning they wanted info. As opposed to just getting their rocks off.

There’s more. Which may, or may not help, but I’ve hit a wall and am stopping here. For now.

***

ETA… I feel like I owe an explanation for the obvious contradiction above. That non of my torture was state sanctioned, and I’ve experienced both. I’m not up to that explanation right now. Suffice it to say, both statements are accurate.

 

[Weemie]

I have a very visceral reaction to the word torture. My automatic response is “well that doesn’t apply to me because it wasn’t state sanctioned”. I wasn’t a soldier or a refugee or anything like that. So my reaction is that my trauma can’t possibly go as far as to be counted as torture because the environment doesn’t qualify.

Words and terminology have been the bane of my existence since I could wrap my fingers around these concepts. Since I could even begin to process these experiences.

Because on one hand, using my logical and analytical capabilities, I can say: OK, there is: actual evidence. There is video evidence. There is photo evidence. There is a money trail. There are bodies. There are court cases. Hospital records. There is evidence on my body. There is evidence in all the reports from the time I was 5 years old until I was 14 years old. One after the other after the other after the other. There is a huge mountain of Stuff that pretty much says "this actually happened." (And was not invented in my head, and I am not crazy, and I am not a psychopath or a pathological liar.)

Because there is evidence that it happened, it is real. Because it is real, the next question is -> what is it? Then we work backwards. It's always rape when adults have sex with children because children cannot consent to sex, ever. So I was raped. If there was a monetary exchange, or equivalency/value/trade, it was trafficking. So it was trafficking. Just sex? No, also labor. Chores. Deliveries. This was where I had settled on what my trauma "Was" for a long time. For a good long while I could say "I was involved in a pedophile ring, I was trafficked as a kid."

When I was eight, though, I was picked out of a line-up along with 3 other kids and we got extra lessons. We were special. We were Recruits. What was I delivering? Drugs. It was always sir and ma'am, but now I'm a recruit. So I can call you Frank. Because I have the privilege of using your first name because I am special, because I am a member of your family. Because I am a part of this group. This non-state group that commits crimes, actions that are illegal and are at odds with the police.

But not always. The police are our enemies and they tear apart our homes and shoot our loved ones but they're also our clients and our friends and money greases the wheel. So it's complicated. And now we're into that fuzzy-grey area of "a few bad apples" but technically, I was threatened with jail and death and I have been interrogated extralegally by uniformed officials, so now it's even murkier. And Parker says, "you realize that's actual torture, right?" Like what, last year? Last year I realized I was legally, literally, tortured.

When I was sixteen years old, I told my therapist about the time K threatened to cut her head off with my machete, (mine, like a lover) and f*ck the stump where her head fell off unless I shot her. So I shot her. When I was nine, they didn't need to yell and scream nonsense, they told me to cut off Tomas's fingers and I did. It takes more than one try, especially because I'm chicken-armed and terribly frail. So WJ wrote the words "child soldier" in my report, and broke confidentiality (because my mother has this report, and it's still in our house).

Terminology has that way of wrapping around your throat. Like a piano wire. Because we all know what happened to us until we don't. And trauma lives in the places where words rarely form congruently, and I'm the guy -> the f*cking pedantic guy, the "that's semantic" guy. Jung calls it introverted thinking, which is to say that my brain classifies things and breaks them apart and shuffles them around and orients them and tries to slot them into place. But you can't do that with torture. Because the trauma is beyond our biological capacity to fathom.

I can't really hear those words and think "that's me." Even though, when I was sixteen, WJ got me into a program that was specifically intended for children who had been coerced, indoctrinated, or even voluntarily joined armed groups and committed armed violence. Even though I understand the law as it's written, logically and very plainly says that it doesn't matter where you are. It's not about what kind of group it is. Gangs, cartels, the mafia, cliques, whatever you want to call it.

At the end of the day I tell this to lots of folks all the time and it's true for me and it's true for you. Our brains are a survival mechanism. Our brains have one job and that's to keep us alive by any means necessary and our brains are extremely, extremely good at that job because they have been bred through millions of years of evolution to do that one, single job. To stay alive, to keep moving and keep breathing. And part of that means that when bad shit happens to us, our brains try to shrug that off. It wasn't that bad. It wasn't really torture. I wasn't a child soldier. I wasn't raped. I wasn't hurt. It's fine.

My only real advice? Try not to see those thoughts as evidence of anything. They're not, they're just your opinions about shit. And they're opinions that have kept you alive for this long, so your brain is doing its very best to take care of you, even when you're berating yourself and minimizing your experiences like this. Even in that very moment your brain deserves commendation for its strength and focus to put you where you are today. And opinions are transient. Everything, ultimately, is transient. In two million years none of this will be here. The universe will be a vastly, wildly different landscape beyond our comprehension.

What matters is that you were harmed. In some way, you were harmed, and you are trying to heal. And there's a point that comes where the terminology is important to acknowledge and own and speak into and breathe life and viscerality into it, and there's also a point where sometimes all we can do is just say, who f*cking knows? I was harmed. I got hurt and I'm trying to f*cking live. Wherever you are on that spectrum is exactly where you need to be.

 

[Ice_Fire]

a line between people using it as a Shakespearean metaphor?

heard the Shakespearean version used for cutting in line, delayed test results, and run of the mill (not meaning pointless, the opposite truly, but expected) domestic violence and child abuse.

Yes, this is an important distinction I suppose. The Shakespearean version (love that description) is the applicable part but yet it is used so commonly, has lost so much of its meaning that it feels like an exaggeration because it is used as an exaggeration. Like, literally, it applies given the types of harms I was made to endure. But precisely because it’s used as a way of emphasising the irritation/upset of more common occurances, that in itself waters it down. But then I react to that and go ‘grrrr no it is a lot worse than that stop using that word when it’s not what you actually mean. I know first hand what that actually means’. And then I get the ick at the realisation of that thought and go back to minimising it. thanks brain.

If there was a monetary exchange, or equivalency/value/trade, it was trafficking.

Because we all know what happened to us until we don't

All of this I think I need to make another thread about or put in my diary because you’re making my head hurt. I’m thinking thunking things that I’m now having to reshuffle and wonder if they need recategorising. Semantics!