Meditation Off Limits?

[DogwoodTree]

So my Ts have been encouraging me to add new elements to my recovery efforts, like yoga or acupuncture. Today I went to a meditation class that's offered for free by a local psychiatrist at the same place where I do yoga. I sat through the whole hour, no problem, relaxed, mildly amused by the experience of relative quiet in my mind...watching thoughts go by...noting emotions but not overwhelmed by them. It was kinda nice.

Only two other people there today because of it being an off week for the center where the class is held. But both of the other people there, including the leader, fell asleep at some point during the hour. She had said up front it's okay if that happens, but try to come back into the meditation.

So afterwards, I asked for more information about the purpose of meditation...She said it's to quiet the louder mind chatter so you can hear the more subtle messages inside. So I asked, are you supposed to focus on going inside, or focus on staying fully present to your surroundings? She said it's more of a going in. So I asked what the real distinction is between dissociation and meditation. She said dissociation is not controlled, and eventually said that if I have to ask that question, then I really shouldn't be doing meditation.

I told her I was wanting to pursue this so I can learn to tell the difference between dissociation and meditation...trying to find the real distinction in my internal experience. But she basically said I should take it up with my T and not come back to her class.

I feel like an idiot. Was her feedback accurate? Like...I really thought meditation would be a GOOD thing to pursue...a way to become more present and grounded. But she said I shouldn't even try meditation until I'm already very well grounded and centered. So now I'm really confused and embarrassed and ashamed. I thought meditation was supposed to help getting grounded and centered, not be off limits until after those goals are reached. I wasn't there to get "treatment" or to fix things...just to experience meditation and get some exposure to other people pursuing that kind of presence. I feel like she was saying I'm just too screwed up, which is a very familiar message already...She was nice about it, but dang that stings.

 

[scout86]

So now I'm really confused

Me too!

I thought meditation was supposed to help getting grounded and centered, not be off limits until after those goals are reached.

Me too. And I can't imagine how it would hurt anything.

I've tried it, but have problems sitting still and keeping my eyes shut. (Probably a combination of ADHD and hypervigilence.?) But, I HAVE tried it and nothing bad happened. I think a fair number of members here do it.

She said dissociation is not controlled, and eventually said that if I have to ask that question, then I really shouldn't be doing meditation.

THAT makes no sense at all. It seems like a perfectly reasonable question and "if you have to ask you shouldn't meditate"? I'll bet most "normal" people don't even know what "dissociation" IS, so they'd have to ask too!

Sorry! I think, once again, the biggest problem you've got here is your "help" not your self.

 

[DogwoodTree]

Thanks, @scout86, that helps to know I'm not the only one surprised by her response.

I've tried it, but have problems sitting still and keeping my eyes shut.

I didn't even try to keep my eyes closed...knew I'd fall asleep from sleep deprivation lately. But sitting still isn't a problem if I "space out"...thusly my questions about what I'm really trying to accomplish during meditation so I don't just conveniently dissociate, instead of putting the time to good use.

She did have one helpful point of distinction between meditation and dissociation...that dissociation is a fragmentation, whereas meditation is an integration. Gotta think on that one...

I think a fair number of members here do it.

That's what I thought going into this, and I read some of @anthony 's old posts about how to meditate...was wondering if maybe I just missed a critical point somewhere, somehow. Is meditation really that "advanced" of an activity, that only the healthiest people should do it? She compared it to...a healthy person would benefit from a 5-mile run, but someone with scoliosis is going to struggle with just walking around. So a mentally healthy person can learn meditation, whereas a mentally unstable person should stick with just grounding and centering exercises, like progressive relaxation.

(If the other lady there is an example of a mentally healthy person, I don't think I'm interested, actually. That woman looked like she was big-time drugged up on meds or something.)

I think, once again, the biggest problem you've got here is your "help" not your self.

Yeah, I'm slowly guiding myself to that landing place with this. She's a psychiatrist, and says she's been doing meditation for several years. I kinda wonder if she's just been using that as an excuse to take a nap when she's "meditating." But then...maybe I'm just looking for excuses to make her out to be an idiot so I can feel better. I'm sure she's a smart lady...just not someone that's helpful to have in my life right now.

 

[scout86]

I'm just looking for excuses to make her out to be an idiot so I can feel better.

My T keeps commenting that I cut other people WAY more slack than they deserve. Maybe you do the same thing! :)

I actually heard something kind of cool on the radio the other night. They were interviewing the guy who directed the movie "Inside Out". He said that emotions have jobs. (I never would have thought of that!) He said the job of "anger" is to make sure other people don't run over the top of us. Wouldn't have thought of that either! I tend to think "if I'm angry, I'm wrong." So, maybe you're right, this woman is just some kind of idiot. LOL And, maybe she's just looking to use this as a way to feel, somehow, superior. Who knows? I don't think you can go too far wrong following Anthony's suggestions. It might be interesting to hear what your T has to say. Mine says our brains won't deliberately hurt us. So, I'd guess the worst that can happen here is "nothing".

 

[Malaenis]

All I can think is maybe she's had someone who dissociated instead of actually meditating, and I can see how that would be more bad than good... But I personally meditate, or try to, everyday. It's the only way I can stop my mind from getting overwhelmed with the hundreds of problems it wants to solve RIGHT NOW. It helps me focus on what's important, instead of the things that I can't solve right now, or don't know how to solve them yet. That seems kind of crazy to me that she would tell you not to. You're absolutely right that meditation helps you ground and center, it teaches you to do it. You don't know how to do it before you start! I know that discouraging feeling though, that everyone just thinks you're a hopeless case. I feel like I finally get myself out of feeling that way, or convince myself my opinion is what matters, not theirs. But then someone says something, especially when it's someone I consider a professional, and I feel like I'm fooling myself that I can ever get better. But even "professionals" can be wrong. Personally, I think that was HER opinion. I have done a lot of research about meditation for myself and have never heard this before. Good luck with everything and I hope you find something that works for you.

 

[Chava]

I told her I was wanting to pursue this so I can learn to tell the difference between dissociation and meditation...trying to find the real distinction in my internal experience. But she basically said I should take it up with my T and not come back to her class.

You say "basically" so just checking. Did she tell you to go over the issue/question more with your T? (that's appropriate, I think). And did she really tell you not to come back to the class? (seems unfair, but if she got the impression you were just dissociating, based on whatever you said to her, that's maybe an okay suggestion for now too). I can hear the frustration of feeling dis-invited though and not really directed in this, and that's frustrating. Especially if led by a psychiatrist you'd think there could be some ways to look at it, or tips for recognizing what is going on with you. If you felt good, or okay with it, just do it.

For me, meditation is hard for a few reasons. Stillness creates physical pain. Also, trying to go into emptiness of mind IS my dissociation. I totally understand the confusion. Even reading ancient Hindu or Buddhist texts, I really feel like they are describing what I'd like to avoid. But it's not. They are quieting all the chatter and attachments and desires. For those of us who are prone to dissociation, it's easy to get somewhere close to that but just tip into dissociation because our bodies know well how to shut off all thought, connection, recognition of self, etc. The states are different but I feel it to be a slippery slope for dissociative types.

Also, I can't focus on my breathing without a little panic.

This all being said, I've found it helps to have a focus (not just attempts that lead to void or emptiness). For me it is not my body or breathing, but sound (I like singing bowls). The focus and sound does quiet the chatter. It helps me come to a more balanced and present place. It does the same thing that sitting meditation or Zen maybe does for others.

So, meditation isn't an all-or-nothing thing. Yes, there are issues like this for some of us. So it's a matter of finding what feels right for you, what helps you feel present and also connected, not just blank, disconnected, dissociated.

 

[DogwoodTree]

My T keeps commenting that I cut other people WAY more slack than they deserve. Maybe you do the same thing!

Hm, maybe I do. I try to "check in" with my motivation in thinking things about people...and if it's more about how to help me feel better, then I try to back off, even if they "deserve" to be thought about that way.

They were interviewing the guy who directed the movie "Inside Out". He said that emotions have jobs. (I never would have thought of that!) He said the job of "anger" is to make sure other people don't run over the top of us.

Oh I loved that movie! I don't know where I got the insight that emotions have jobs (it was before seeing that movie), but that perspective has really helped me guide my kids through arguments and challenges and stuff lately. To tell my 13-year-old that she can listen to her anger towards her sister, because it's trying to tell her something important...that was calming and empowering for her at the same time.

What is her anger telling her? That her younger sister crossed a boundary and messed up something that belonged to my older daughter. What does the angry one need to do about that? Create a clearer boundary, and hold the boundary more firmly. She recognized at the same time that she didn't want to completely cut off her sister from playing with her stuff, but she did want to make it clearer what her sister can play with, and what she can't. So she did. And we took measures to make sure she can keep that boundary with her sister.

I explained that sometimes anger is saying we're not holding a boundary firmly enough, and sometimes it's saying that someone else is being intentionally harmful towards us, and sometimes it's saying that we have inappropriate or unrealistic expectations of other people. But either way, the anger is a red flag saying we need to do something differently to protect ourselves and to manage our expectations of other people. That whole concept really seems to be sinking in with my kids. Even the 7 year old has firmly and clearly pointed out where his boundaries are in response to his angry feelings, and called attention to times when people are trying to be slick and sneak in boundary infractions.

Sadness has its place, too. Without grief, we can't have true, radical acceptance. These are emotions I wasn't allowed to have as a kid. It's been a real adventure to learn how to experience these things.

It helps me focus on what's important, instead of the things that I can't solve right now, or don't know how to solve them yet. That seems kind of crazy to me that she would tell you not to. You're absolutely right that meditation helps you ground and center, it teaches you to do it. You don't know how to do it before you start!

That's what I thought, too...

I know that discouraging feeling though, that everyone just thinks you're a hopeless case. I feel like I finally get myself out of feeling that way, or convince myself my opinion is what matters, not theirs. But then someone says something, especially when it's someone I consider a professional, and I feel like I'm fooling myself that I can ever get better.

Yes, that's exactly what it was like. My T is very intentional about not using pathologizing labels or attitudes...this experience today really highlights for me how much I appreciate that in him.

 

[scout86]

These are emotions I wasn't allowed to have as a kid. It's been a real adventure to learn how to experience these things.

I don't know if I wasn't allowed or just didn't, but I get this. What you're doing with your kids sounds amazing! And, I think looking at it as "they have jobs" is going to help me a lot. (Up till now it was kind of "what's the point?". LOL)

 

[DogwoodTree]

You say "basically" so just checking. Did she tell you to go over the issue/question more with your T? (that's appropriate, I think). And did she really tell you not to come back to the class? (seems unfair, but if she got the impression you were just dissociating, based on whatever you said to her, that's maybe an okay suggestion for now too).

Yes, she said to take it up with my T. And at first, it sounded like that's where she would leave it, which was okay. But then she kept talking, and ended up saying more clearly that meditation just isn't for everyone, and that some people aren't healthy enough for it, and that's when she gave the example of the 5-mile run. She didn't say, "Don't come back," but she did say something like, "I don't think this is the right place for you" (can't remember the exact words, but that's the essence of it as clearly as I can remember).

I didn't outright tell her I was dissociating. I asked about what the difference is, and said I was trying to figure out the distinction between the two so that I can steer myself in the right direction as I'm getting into meditation. I did tell her that "my experience with dissociation is that it can also be a 'going in' kind of experience" so I wanted to make sure I understood what I was aiming for here.

Usually my Ts are very encouraging of this kind of question. They seem to appreciate how deeply I'm processing the ideas, and how my questions help all three of us understand the concepts more clearly.

trying to go into emptiness of mind IS my dissociation.

She was saying it's not really an "emptiness" as much as just quieting the louder "chatter" so you can hear the underlying wisdom and thoughts that most people never notice. But I do this all the time...I'm constantly digging under the obvious thoughts to lower layers of thought and impressions and ideas. One of my Ts this week said, though, that the way I do this (with so many layers of different kinds of thoughts going at the same time) is actually a form of dissociation. So now I'm even more confused...if digging for subtler layers of thoughts is the goal of meditation...and is a form of dissocation...then I really, truly don't know the difference. And I was asking to try to clarify it from someone else's perspective.

it's easy to get somewhere close to that but just tip into dissociation because our bodies know well how to shut off all thought, connection, recognition of self, etc.

Yes, I know this shutdown experience, too...completely distanced from anything and everything. If the two experiences of meditation and dissociation are so closely related, then how is asking about the distinction between them such a strong indication of mental illness that disqualifies me from attending a meditation class where I didn't cause any sort of disturbance at all, where I asked honest and thoughtful questions afterwards about the experience, and really wanted to learn from her? So then I start questioning if maybe I came across in ways that I'm completely unaware of...which is frightening.

Also, I can't focus on my breathing without a little panic.

Yes, me too. I have to focus on something external if I feel panicky. A bright color, a strong line, something like that. Focusing on my breathing makes me feel claustrophobic. So any time someone says to do that during a relaxation exercise or at the end of yoga class or whatever, I choose an alternative focus and just don't tell anyone I'm doing it differently.

So, meditation isn't an all-or-nothing thing. Yes, there are issues like this for some of us. So it's a matter of finding what feels right for you, what helps you feel present and also connected, not just blank, disconnected, dissociated.

Seems like a meditation class would be an ideal place to explore this issue...oh well.

 

[DogwoodTree]

I don't know if I wasn't allowed or just didn't, but I get this.

Yeah, I don't remember that my parents ever screamed at me for feeling sad or angry or whatever...but there were repercussions for having negative feelings. Sometimes we'd get in trouble for being angry, but mostly it just destabilized the whole family system so much...it wasn't worth it. People, including my parents, would get offended and pouty and withdrawn. Actually, my step-dad would get furious if we had any emotion he didn't overtly approve of in the moment (which could change without notice).

And now as an adult, if you feel a negative emotion, the enmeshed family system tries to jump to your "rescue" because those emotions are still not allowed in their version of reality...must.be.fixed.

 

[Friday]

If you google meditation & disassociation... You'll see there's actually quite a lot of debate about whether or not they're one & the same durn thing.

It seems to me that most of the debate is like listening to whether daydreaming & maladaptive daydreaming are both... Daydreaming :p

It could be that simple: one is coming from a healthy place on purpose, & the other is a trauma response that is causing problems. Or it could be like the fundamental difference between sex & rape; even though the mechanics are the same there is a chasm of difference between the two.

I don't know.

 

[DogwoodTree]

If you google meditation & disassociation... You'll see there's actually quite a lot of debate about whether or not they're one & the same durn thing.

Yeah, I tried to explain to her that my background in dissociation is extensive enough that there are many layers of the experience for me...so to define dissociation strictly as the experience that happens when one is in a car wreck, for example, misses the complexity and depth of the experience...there are many, many types and layers of dissociation, and it's not always just a quick, survival-type response in an immediate instance of danger. But...it's like that explanation went straight over her head, and she got this psychiatrist-distanced look on her face that I've seen a few times before with people. At which point I start concluding that I'm too screwed up to be around normal people...