Narcissistic self-loathing

[Sideways]

This is a difficult subject for me to discuss, but feeling like I'm ready to try and combat this - still, please be gentle with your replies!

It's come up several times in the course of my therapy that my self-loathing has narcissistic features. I have the (obviously distorted) belief that I have a toxic effect on people, particularly men. So much so that, when I've found men that I've had a lot of respect for getting involved with me and my life, I've deliberately pushed them away for their own good.

Pushing people away for their own good is one thing, but it's been brought to my attention that my belief is narcissistic in its quality (in the psychiatric meaning of the word) because when you break it down, I essentially believe that my "evilness" is so all-powerful that it will be toxic to any guy, no matter how good he may be.

Has anyone come at this sort of self-loathing from the perspective of it being 'narcissistic'? How do you tackle that sort of deeply-held belief, when they seem to be saying that it's pathological?

Urgh!

 

[EveHarrington]

I have those same feelings but I do not believe they should be twisted to fit narcissism.

Much like in the same way that people will try to twist any effects of trauma into PTSD.

Essentially I feel it would be a glossing over of the true issue at hand.

 

[Sideways]

@EveHarrington - True, although I think it has been raised with me in that context in the past to try and show that the beliefs are very distorted, rather than to twist things into something they're not. I did have one psychiatrist diagnose me with type 2 Narcissism, but my working diagnosis is just Mixed Personality on Axis II (the personality axis in the dsm - at least I thjnk that's how it works).

The preoccupation with a very distorted view of the self, and the degree of dysfunction that causes, is more the crux of it. With the more typical self-loving narcissist personality, it causes a distorted and dysfunctional view of that person's place in the world and their relationship with others, and I think what my pdoc is trying to get at is more: do you realise that your self-concept is just as distorted and dysfunctional...?

Like, if my pdoc were to say to me, "You have a pretty bad opinion of yourself", I'd just nod and assure her that I know myself pretty well and it's all very rational. But when it's put in the context of "Do you realise you're bordering on having a full blown personality disorder here?", it kind of amplifies the degree of distortion going on. Because it does seem rational to me, even though obviously no person could ever really be so pervasively toxic to others by their mere physical presence.

The self-loathing is something that you kind of get used to, you know? It's hard to step back from it sometimes and assess it objectively, and I guess I'm having a hard time separating from it.

 

[scout86]

Someone I respect once asked me if I really thought I was "that uniquely bad". As in 'worst person in the known universe' bad. I'd never thought of it like that. It came as kind of a surprise. And, I had to admit, I'm not even that good at being 'bad'. :( :confused: Which doesn't mean I don't see the wisdom in pushing someone away for their own good. (You don't have to be the worse person in the world, just bad enough, you know?)

I suppose you could see your version of magical thinking (because it's that too) as 'narcissistic'. I don't know how useful that is. Do you think that idea was thrown out there because people think you're a narcissist, or to try to get you to pay attention to how extreme (and unreasonable) your belief in your "evilness" is?

How do you tackle that sort of deeply-held belief,

Good question! What do you think?

 

[Suzetig]

My T has asked me what's so special about me that I get to not be cared for or loved or accepted, from the viewpoint that I genuinely believe all people deserve these things except for me. So there must be something unique about me that sets me apart from others - which could stretch to fit narcissism if I was so inclined.

My sense is that these core beliefs are changed very slowly, as we sit with people who challenge them and help us challenge them in ourselves. I don't think it's ever a case of waking up one morning and feeling our rightful place in the world, more like a gradual scraping away.

 

[Tinyflame]

Idk, but I think perhaps more beliefs +/ or experiences?

For example

what's so special about me that I get to not be cared for or loved or accepted, from the viewpoint that I genuinely believe all people deserve these things except for me.

I believe in an ideal world that is so, but my experiences say 'how' I am have a diferent end result, including FOO, so it must be 'me'/ my behaviours, even when they've seemed ~'ok'?

If that makes sense- must run to work! :confused:

:hug:

 

[Deleted member 541]

I believe that thee is something beautiful and unique in/about all of us. Everyone on this planet serves a purpose that will serve/help/connect to another human being for a special reason. We will do something very small perhaps, that will live on as a fond memory for that person.

@Ragdoll Circus I'm guessing that this self loathing was either driven into your brain by someone or you started to believe this because of your trauma????? If so, it's a learned thought, and can be unlearned also. You tackle it like everything else..... Small steps. Find something, no matter how you think that you feel, there must be something special, unique, lovable, kind, or a physical feature that is good about you, and focus on that.

You've had men in your life, so they must have been attracted to you for your beauty, your intelligence, your sense of humor, your kindness?!?!?!? ? Something!!!! So you can't be inherently evil or bad. Something about you has to be wonderful, find it and cherish it..... just somethings to think about!!!,

 

[lostforgottensoul]

Pushing people away for their own good is one thing, but it's been brought to my attention that my belief is narcissistic in its quality (in the psychiatric meaning of the word) because when you break it down, I essentially believe that my "evilness" is so all-powerful that it will be toxic to any guy, no matter how good he may be.

I have this belief. It is super deep seeded as well. One of which is super hard to dig out.

Everyone carries some narcissistic traits. Does that make them diagnosable for NPD? Nope. It is a widely misused term and NPD is rare. That's just truth. So what if this is a narcissistic trait? That doesn't give you NPD. What does it change if this is a narcissistic trait? Does it change how you challenege it or handle the thought? What does it change for you to say "this is a narcissistic trait?"

 

[ladee]

Well you knew I was going to weigh in on this one.
I have been thru too Much in my life to have people in my life that I don't see a lot of good and loving things about them.
Keeping in mind I am on the outside looking in at your journey.
But easy for me to see how your trauma would make this be a belief!

I have always seen you as a young woman trying to make sense of her life and feeling you don't fit anywhere. Sorry Hon. On that one many of us feel that way. Still.

Is it possible for someone to truly love and respect someone they have never met? In my world that is real.
There are people here I love. People I have got to know. People that have been thru hell, still in hell, but love them for the things that make us human. Strength, integrity, honesty. Beating the odds in our f*cked up brains.
And you have been told many times how much I love you. I know you don't believe it, and you don't have to. I know who I choose as my traveling partners on this journey. And you are one of them. A very special one of them.

Yes..your vision of how toxic you are is borderline. Not in the traditional narc sense, but you Not realizinging some can see thru your pain and see YOU. I have 'sat' with you for a very long time. Even not hearing from you. I was still there. Because I believe in you and see the things your trauma has blined you about.
I will never have regrets for loving you. No matter how hard you are on yourself. You have allowed me to set with you Rag doll. And I continue to love you regardless.
Every single word is from my heart and you know that.
Its just so simple..I just love you. You know why? Because I can!

 

[Sideways]

So I've given up trying to multi-quote!!

Depending on which pdoc you ask, then yeah, I have been diagnosed with NPD. Although that's the self-loathing version, rather than the more common self-loving version, because of how irrational, pervasive and dysfunctional the beliefs are. My current pdoc has simply diagnosed me with complex ptsd and DID, and prefers to see it in that context, because a morbid self-concept is synonymous with complex ptsd, even if it does take on a bit a life of its own, and I like that approach mostly because it dispenses with the shopping list of diagnoses that I end up with otherwise.

So it definitely comes from my trauma, which unhelpfully included a lot of psychological programming about my special (albeit v evil) quality, but also I think that like a lot of people with csa, it's perpetuated by a fairly immense amount of shame. Shame is something I find hard to nail down and deal with in a warrior-survivor kind of mindset.

NPD on the other hand? It is kind of helpful to me to have been told that. When I was told I had BPD traits (also synonymous with cptsd), it was something I could more objectively identify and, of course, throw a heap of dbt at. It was kind of like not just being told "This is how far your self-concept deviates from the norm", but also, "Do you realise how much damage this is doing to your experience of life? "

I think when a pdoc tells you that you have a personality disorder, it's something that you pay attention to. When you get given that diagnosis you tend not to be so quick to say, "Yeah, it's because of my trauma", or "Yeah but it's ok because it's the self-loathing version, not the Make-Way-For-Hero-Ragdoll version..."

But unlike BPD (which I haven't ever been diagnosed with), I can't just DBT it out of my system. And I think that's partly perhaps because the underlying shame continues to feed it, even when I know logically that I can't possibly have this toxic evil super-power. I don't know how to come at that.

@ladee - just sitting, trying to keep breathing with you, and so incredibly grateful to have met you:)

 

[ladee]

And same to you. I have had evil people in my life Hon. And you are not one of them. By no means.
I do like the question do you realize how much damage this is doing to your life experiance. You have come so very very far RD...and we will continue as we have been. Breathing and setting. We can do That. Love you.

 

[scout86]

In all I've read about NPD, I've never heard of a self loathing form. I get that there's a way to think you're SO bad that it makes you "special", but self loathing seems to be the opposite of NPD. My T once said that he thought my mom was a passive-aggressive narcissist and my brother is "just an aggressive one". I've read a little about those variations, but never have a heard of a self loathing narcissist. You're sure that's a thing?