No, I Did Not Violate Your Boundaries

[mamachick]

Bloomin-so well spoken. You have such a gift of communicating with empathy, without sounding judgemental, and getting to the facts. Bless you

 

[CrazyHorse]

BloomInWinter, you make some really valid points and point out a side of therapy that is really important too.

However, FON, you do not stike me as someone who refuses to open up and move away from negative patterns, unwilling to try new approaches to life and puts your no-hat on when your therapist challenges you. You strike me as very intelligent, with a great deal of strength in you. And it seems to me from your posts that you have been working really hard on getting better!

 

[saffy]

damn arrogant of a therapist

I agree, It sounds like she is coming from her ego rather than being empathic and in your own interests.

I think in that case I think a list of questions is a really good idea.

I agree Hashi, I think the more we learn about the therapist we are putting our hopes really on someone we do not know anything about. Why should we trust them immediately or have faith in their motives and actions?
A relationship of this nature must be open and congruent, show unconditional positive regard and have accurate empathic understanding. In my view anyway :)

This is quite a good hand out available to those interested in the person centred therapy. It gives you good insight on the basis of therapy and what is expected from the therapist. I hope it helps a bit :)

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...b8XoGR&sig=AHIEtbQrjodJYjb8JlGAsyxc9KovnmIR0g

She writes that she expected me to withdraw like that and that she finds it problematic because she thinks that this is my relationship pattern:

Then why do IT?? her motives or actions do not make sense in a theraputic setting. She sounds like someone got pissed of at the pub and now wants to talk about it. Ego comes to mind!

Thank God I ended up in psychodynamic by mistake even though that ended badly.

I am glad you found this Abstract and think this also highlights the need to know what types are out there, so you know you have an option if our current therapy is not working. :)

Well said Crazyhorse :)

best wishes
Saffy :)

 

[Abstract]

This is where the 'D' in DBT is so important. There needs to be work for change, but there also has to be acceptance for the things that are not yet ready for change.

I totally agree with this FON and have found the concept very helpful to me too. Is is acceptance and validation whilst working for change. That validation makes all the difference. And there is good reason why DBT works for so many that are not helped by CBT.

I've never regretted taking any of his suggestions.

Bloom,
I have noticed that you seem to find CBT type approaches very helpful. I think that is wonderful. I also think it shows a certain resilience in you. As I said before I know many people who have been very helped by just having their distorted thoughts and unhelpful patterns directly challenged.

I do also think trying hard at something is important too. I just know for me I tried very hard and it harmed me. The change started happening with a gentler approach despite me always trying hard. I do think it comes down to what works.

do not make sense

Well, I actually think pointing out patterns in the way we relate makes total sense in therapeutic setting and can be life changing in a positive way. It is what therapy is about to an extent. Her actions make total sense if these were different circumstances in my opinion. I still don't like how they seem to have been packaged or managed but there you go.

 

[Abstract]

my main problems are coping with the frustration of still being unempoyed (I need to work from home) and dealing with the fear that my husband will start to resent me for living off of his money. I also wish to find a way to no longer get so painfully angry as soon as I think about my p*rents.

Actually I never did proper psychoanalysis (sitting on the sofa and having therapy 4/5 times a week!) but psychodynamic did help me a lot in certain ways that nothing had before that. It was in awareness and patterns of relating mostly but also exposing the abusive relationships in my life, developing assertiveness etc. It achieved changes in my way of relating to others and myself that CBT never did.

But I digress as that doesn't really seem a good match for you (and I won't be doing it again I don't think).

All your main priorities seem to be around emotion management and general functioning at present. I wonder if it would be a good idea to go back into DBT for a bit until you feel able to manage something more.

I know many people who have been very helped by repeating the course over a few times. I think more starts sinking in and a lot of it is practise so that helps too. And in an environment where you get input too. It should also help with the interpersonal stuff at the same time which will help in general but stand you in good stead when you try therapy again.

It seems DBT did help you before. Which of those approaches helped in the past and which didn't? And taking into consideration the skill of the therapist and where you were and are now.

and stuff that's just nuts.

lol. That's good then!

 

[safenow]

What is the difference between DBT and CBT?

 

[BloomInWinter]

CBT is short for "Cognitive Behavioral Therapy" which focuses on identifying and challenging self-defeating (maladaptive) behaviors, thoughts, and beliefs. There's a lot more to it but that's my basic understanding.

DBT is "Dialectical Behavioral Therapy" which is a sub-set of CBT. A skills-based program, it focuses on helping patients learn stabilizing skills such as distress tolerance, affect regulation, self-soothing, and mindfulness.

The skills help patients become empowered to manage symptoms well enough that other therapies can be more helpful.

There's quite a bit of information in this discussion: [DLMURL]https://www.ptsdforum.org/c/threads/dbt-has-anyone-here-gone-through-this-therapy.11150/[/DLMURL]

 

[freakofnurture]

Were you challenging yourself to try to put your feet down on the floor?

Yes. Constantly. For years and years. And the sequence of events has always been as follows:

Initially it's all fine, I'm relaxed, surpised that it went so well, optimistic, proud of myself.

Then I slowly start to tense up. At first, my skills, relaxation methods etc. still work, but eventually me trying to relax will only cause me to feel even more scared.

In the end I cannot stand the situation any longer and flee.

After a few months of recharging, the same thing starts all over again. Initially it's all fine, but then the fear starts to creep in, no matter which methods I employ to keep it at bay, and no matter how hard I force myself to not give in.

I think I am justified in saying: This approach does not work for me; I have to find another way to deal with my anxiety.

Which doesn't mean, though, that I don't still practice all the stuff I've learned when I have to go out. Encouraging self-talk, detached, non-judgemental obeservation of my emotional and physical reaction, as much relaxation as I can manage without triggering my fear, and distraction, once my anxiety has reached a level which - as I have learned from years and years of going far beyond that point again and again - will only increase further if I don't remove myself from the situation one way or the other.

As I said before: I really, honestly, genuinely, totally worked the shit out of this issue and it brought me abso-f*cking-lutely nowhere.

IntoTheLight really helped me with this by asking me to ask myself if I thought that my therapist was basically a decent person with good intentions.

Most people are decent and have good intentions. That doesn't keep them from being misguided, biased and deluded in all kinds of ways and on all kinds of levels. You know the story with the frog and the scorpion?* A decent, well intended scorpion is still a scorpion, just as a decent, well intended human is still a human.

I've never regretted taking any of his suggestions. They were painful at the time, but every one I 'tried on for size' did help stabilize my life in some very fundamental ways.

I always considered all suggestions, no matter if I had heard them ten times already; maybe I just missed something the last ten times? I considered and I tried, regardless how often I had failed already. Because who knows, maybe this time it will be different.

But it never was different. The result was always the same. And frankly, I'm pretty insane, but not insane enough to keep smashing myself into a wall that has only gotten bigger since the first time I did that.

That's really the thing about keeping all of my 'self' to just a few people I deemed 'worthy.'

I'm sorry to hear that you had to go through such a huge loss.

With me, it's not so much about me deeming people 'worthy'. It's that most people don't care about the things I am interested in while I don't care about the things most people are interested in. I'm not one for humoring people I have nothing in common with, on the odd chance that they might be there to help me, should, by some cruel coincidence, all my other friends die at the same time.

You are perfectly allowed to set whatever boundaries work for you. Mine were so bizarre even friends couldn't get through. Opening them up has been incredibly difficult and rewarding.

I'm not strict when it comes to my boundaries, at least not in therapy.

When I first reinforced the boundary my conflict with my ex-T was about, she overstepped it during the next session already. I let her do it because I thought "She knows that I have this boundary there; she'll have a good reason to overstep it. Maybe she has some new ideas or insights?" Turns out she just didn't understand my boundary and didn't hav anything new to say.

I played this game a number of times already, and now I'm fed up. If I'm not able to explain my boundary to her in a way that will keep her from overstepping it without any good reason, then we might just not be meant for each other.

I took a leap of faith that he wasn't wishing me ill and just might actually be trying to help me.

Good intentions don't prevent people from being dead wrong and severely hurting you.

However, FON, you do not stike me as someone who refuses to open up and move away from negative patterns, unwilling to try new approaches to life and puts your no-hat on when your therapist challenges you. You strike me as very intelligent, with a great deal of strength in you. And it seems to me from your posts that you have been working really hard on getting better!

Thank you :)

What pisses me off a bit right now is that I'm playing that game again in this thread, where I have to prove to people that I really really really really REALLY am trying to get better, that I deeply think about and do what my Ts tell me, even if it hasn't worked for a million times already.

Won't someone *please* just take my f*cking word for it?!? Goddamnit. Just trust me that I know what I am doing.

Then why do IT?? her motives or actions do not make sense in a theraputic setting. She sounds like someone got pissed of at the pub and now wants to talk about it. Ego comes to mind!

The more I think about it, the more I feel like going back would actually be the repetition of a negative relationship pattern.

I'm so used to thinking "Give them another chance. They just didn't know better. You can deal with their shortcomings. Maybe there is something in it for you after all." and wanting so much to find something helpful and worthwhile in the other person, while taking on all of the responsibility for the relationship's success. I exhaust myself giving the other person chance after chance after chance instead of walking away as soon as I begin to dread talking to them.

Which of those approaches helped in the past and which didn't? And taking into consideration the skill of the therapist and where you were and are now.

I benefit most when I'm with a T who accepts what I say as correct enough, and then offers their opinion without letting us get into an argument about it. I don't do well when I feel pressured into adopting another person's views or justifying/defending mine. I need to be allowed to handle my therapist's perspective like one of many that I can take or leave just as I feel is right.

I adopted so many new perspectives and ideas from Mrs W, just because she allowed me to feel completely free and not pressured about it.

This has a lot to do with my traumata, I guess. Everything that makes me feel like I'm not being seen/heard and like I have to justify my thoughts and feelings (instead of just explaining them to someone who's interested in understanding my perspective) cues me to shut down and ramp up my frustrated defensiveness.
———-
* Scorpion asks frog to carry her across the river, promises not to sting; in the middle of the river scorpion stings frog, both drown, moral: I'm a scorpion, what the f*ck did you expect?

 

[BloomInWinter]

((((((FON)))))))

You owe nobody any explanations, including me.

Your journey is totally up to you. You don't need to 'prove' anything. I do assume you are doing all you can for your recovery. That's a given. I also assume you are the expert on yourself.

I shared my experiences but also prefaced them with a 'feel free to reject' so please, feel free to reject everything I have said if it's not helpful. You don't have to explain why.

You did post presumably, asking for feedback.

Based upon the information from the first post, I shared what I thought. That doesn't mean I have all the info or that it's correct. It's only an opinion about what I think your therapist might have been trying to help you with.

By 'worthy,' I meant worthy of my trust. There used to be few I felt that way about. Thankfully, I have a lot more people I feel are validating and trustworthy.

I'm sorry that you seem to feel you were being attacked. That was not my intention.

You have made your point that you've tried everything and nothing with this therapist works. I won't attempt further feedback on your thread here since you've clearly outlined that my shares are not helpful to you.

I wish you well and am glad you've found a way that is working well for you.

Regards,
BloomInWinter

 

[Abstract]

that I'm playing that game again in this thread

It did occur to me. I know how it feels when even others who are my peers are saying the same things that have been unhelpful to me from therapists. So I can understand why you feel defensive just as I understand that all is said with no attack and care meant.

It always comes with great care. And it is just when we have done it to death that it rankles I believe.

 

[freakofnurture]

I shared my experiences but also prefaced them with a 'feel free to reject' so please, feel free to reject everything I have said if it's not helpful. You don't have to explain why.

I noticed that preface and I didn't feel attacked, it's just...

You know, all your concerns are valid, and the points you brought up, and it's like I want to honor your input with more than a 'Thanks, but no thanks' while at the same time I'm so frustrated, mostly about the need I feel to acknowledge other people's offers of help and support in great detail, even if it wasn't helpful for my particular case.

I guess I'm pretty scared of being misunderstood and seen as dismissive - which usually happens when I'm short and don't go into detail about why I reject this or that suggestion. I just cannot take for granted that people will understand me the first time I explain something, and I can't make them responsible for my lacking ability to get my points across. I can't also assume that people just didn't read my previous explanations; it would be insulting to assume that they're not genuinely interested in understanding me.

And at the same time I just despair about this fact. I feel like I'm incompatable with other people. I cannot give them what they need in order to be able to give me what I need.

By 'worthy,' I meant worthy of my trust. There used to be few I felt that way about. Thankfully, I have a lot more people I feel are validating and trustworthy.

Everyone deserves to have such friends :)

I'm sorry that you seem to feel you were being attacked. That was not my intention.

I'm sorry I came across as feeling attacked by you. I can see how this happened. I lash out in my frustration, not because I feel like you're doing something wrong; you - and brat also - were just being thorough, offering your own insights in the hope of helping me overcome my problems.

I feel like whatever I do, it's always wrong and leads to conflict. I want people to understand me, but in trying to explain I just make myself feel frustrated and give the impression that I don't sufficiently appreciate other people's good intentions or even feel attacked by them. And if I don't explain myself, of course people perceive me as being dismissive of their efforts; how else are they supposed to interpret what essentially *is* dismission?

I'm sorry I couldn't bring across well enough that I do appreciate your concern. I feel like I need something from people that they can't possibly give.

 

[Hashi]

EDITED TO ADD - I was writing this while you were writing your post above. It's not responding to what you say there - it's referring to your earlier posts and the conflict with your therapist.

I benefit most when I'm with a T who accepts what I say as correct enough, and then offers their opinion without letting us get into an argument about it. I don't do well when I feel pressured into adopting another person's views or justifying/defending mine.... I adopted so many new perspectives and ideas from Mrs W, just because she allowed me to feel completely free and not pressured about it.

I'm with you on this. I thrive on that kind of approach. Other people may thrive on something else.

I think we're all able to reach a point of knowing what genuinely works for us, and what doesn't. Once we reach that point we can trust what we know.

My personal view - which I know isn't always in line with other people's - is that to feel so upset by a conflict like this means we've been suppressing a gut feeling about something. It sounds to me like you've been pushing yourself to continue with this therapist beyond your internal voice telling you it's not for you. I think it's valid to ask - is it avoidance, am I upset because my inner voice is actually telling me to stay with this and push through it with this therapist? - but I think you've already considered that and answered it fully. I don't see a value in continuing to question that.

Is there any possibility of talking to Mrs W about seeing her again?

From your recent post, you've tried a number of therapies. I'm assuming some were more helpful than others. If you're going to begin a new search at this point, my humble suggestion would be to step back and spend some time reviewing what works best for you, where you are right now, what you want to achieve in the next year or two, and what feels most appropriate to get there.

I know you have limitations on who's available for you to see. I'd suggest that you're still picky over the things that are the most important. My personal view (and experience) is that it's worth even a long search and wait for someone who you can work with and move forward with, than a shorter wait for someone else.