Childhood Recovering from chronic bullying

[Ecdysis]

I'm very sorry for what you went through. IMO there's way, way too little acknowledgement of how psychologically scarring bullying truly is. I don't think society's quite ready to go there, because it's still too much of a popular tool, used in so many places. Society is just starting to truly grapple with childhood trauma and not even doing very well with that. If society has to admit that bullying is abuse and totally unacceptable... Umm, then a heck of a lot of people won't know what to do cos bullying is their daily modus operandi.

There's a book about bullying by Jodee Blanco called "Please stop laughing at me" that's really good and Brene Brown has got some amazing resources for overcoming shame from things like bullying.

 

[Thund]

Thank you, and thanks for the response. I do read some books Body Keeps The Score, and Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving
I don't know why there is such a stigma that bullying is something not part of PTSD society.

Person on this topic answered: "It is exceptionally rare to develop PTSD from bullying, as 99.9% of bullying doesn’t come anywhere close to meeting the threshold for PTSD.",

But this is far from the truth. It didnt took me long to discover that doctor and trauma specialists do not think like that.
Here is good article about PTSD and bullying (and I found many more like that from various PTSD organizations):
Causes of PTSD: Bullying – PTSD UK

Here is a great quote:

Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) is a condition that some people develop after experiencing or witnessing a traumatic event. The defining characteristic of a traumatic event is its capacity to provoke fear, helplessness, or horror in response to the threat of injury or death and therefore can affect anyone, including victims of bullying.

Studies have shown that ‘experiencing bullying is the strongest predictor of developing PTSD symptoms. This surpassed physical abuse, neglect, and exposure to community violence. Another literature review examining 29 relevant studies on bullying and harassment found that 57% of victims scored above the threshold for meeting PTSD criteria.’

‘When you are a victim of bullying or harassment, you can experience a wide range of emotions, ranging from mild embarrassment to extreme fear as a result of being in danger where your safety is compromised. Bullying is a distinct social stressor because it represents a systematic form of interpersonal aggression coupled with intense feelings of powerlessness and defencelessness’ – a ‘perfect storm’ for PTSD to develop.

‘When a person is repeatedly bullied or harassed, they experience continued negative reinforcement, systematic abuse of power, and ongoing intimidation and emotional pain. And those who are bullied as children tend to have a greater risk of being bullied in their adult lives. The characteristic symptoms that develop as a result of bullying (feelings of powerlessness, helplessness, anger, fear) are also strongly correlated with that of PTSD, making it more likely that a person who was bullied would develop the disorder.’

It’s worth noting too, that PTSD can also be caused by an ‘accumulation of many small, individually non-life-threatening incidents’ – which is sometimes the case with bullying – and this is often referred to as Complex PTSD (C-PTSD). ‘With complex PTSD, victims are “held captive” by their situations. Children who are subject to regular bullying may not have any way out of what they perceive as a trapped situation. Reporting incidents to teachers or other authority figures can be a daunting prospect, as this sort of “tattletale” behaviour is so apt to exacerbate the bullying instead of halting it.’

I think lots of people have wrong perception what bullying is, and that most bullying is the same. While most of it is actually mild, some can be so brutal and psychological like the feeling you are in war camp, or prison, and cannot get out of it.

Also, it is very important enviroment at home. Some parents know about abuse, but dont want to get involve and protect a child. If you are being brutally abused and parents are unable to protect you, you abandon all hope and become a prisoner.

Experts agree that bullying generally entails three key elements:

• an intent to harm
• a power imbalance
• repeated acts or threats of aggressive behaviour

In my example, my parents refused to protect me, because they were living under the glass bell, trying to be isolated from the world (like they are in shelter and outside is nuclear war) and thaught me that if you just endure and do nothing, everything will pass. Once I came home with broken finger, and person who did that lived in same building. I thought he will go there and talk to parents, protect me, but my father just freeze.

School was very much for me like a concentration camp. I couldnt escape mentally and somehow I got attached to my abusers. They made me do choirs for them, going to the store to buy them meal and similar stuff, and if I refused they would just beat me or psychologically terrorized me. This happened for 4 years every day of the high school. It scarred me for life. Their power over me was so strong that if I wanted to spit in their food and they wouldnt notice it, I couldnt. Also, they stripped me of any self-respect and dignity. I was certain I was total crap. They could do anything to me, if they wanted. Im sorry to people who survived rape, but it really felt like they raped me every day. This sound to me so right.

So nobody really takes me seriously when I talk about having traumatic experience during bullying, and its not helping my growth and healing at all. Plus its very shameful, childlish. I feel so much shame talking and thinking about it.
Also, I should mention, there was war in this country (Yugoslav Wars). Lots of fathers went to war or came with PTSD, and Im sure that affected those children who were abusers too.

 

[Friday]

@Thund I’m not sure why you keep quoting that one line, out of context, and then linking articles that in zero ways disagree with anything I wrote.

The context of what I wrote was comparing getting PTSD from bullying is about as infinitesimal as getting PTSD from marriage. If there’s physical/sexual abuse/assault? Then one is talking about physical/sexual abuse/assault. No longer “just” bullying or “just” marriage. Which is why there are few if any resources on getting ptsd FROM bullying/marriage, but tons of resources on abuse, assault, sexual assault, & domestic violence; as well as tons of resources for the often profound and tremendous consequences of bullying (which are in no way limited to the teeny tiny narrow little range contained within PTSD). Even the articles you linked are quite clear on that second part.

Research has shown that 40.5% of girls and 27.6% of boys show PTSD symptoms at the time of being bullied, and approximately 20% of people who have been bullied experience some kind of mental health problems later in life, and an increased risk of suicide and substance abuse.

Google GAD+Bullying, Social Anxiety+Bullying, Depression+Bullying, Mood Disorders + Bullying, Phobias+Bullying, Eating Disorders + Bullying, etc.?

You’ll find virtually the same quote across all articles; paraphrasing “It’s common to show symptoms of X at the time of being bullied, and apx 20% of people who have been bullied experience some kind of mental health problems later in life.”

Some kind of mental health problems later in life. = Correlation, not causation.

These brief little articles are part of several ginormous series, written from a patient-education standpoint; whether it’s assisting in directing people where to get help from during the event(s) -or- helping individuals parse various aspects of childhood adversity, and other common mileposts/life events/stressors, & their mental health diagnosis. The majority of the articles is these series are focused on Disorder X & Adversity Y.

Meanwhile? There are whole textbooks written containing both an overview of the spectrum of responses, results, influences, treatment models, etc., (whether childhood adversity, or any other often influential event or time of life)… in addition to …Disorder Specific texts (the one for PTSD is over 700p) that examine the spectrum of responses, trends, etc. contained within that disorder, alone.

 

[Thund]

Ok, but thats the point. Why physical/sexual/psychological abuse + assault is so much dissociated with the term bullying? Doesnt term bullying means abuse in school? Should I have that dissociated?

Being abused in jail or being POW have much heavier meaning, yet in some circumstances are sometimes the same. Children's trauma is just as heavy as adult trauma.

I agree that articles on internet cant be reliable, I took this from some UK PTSD charity organisation in mind it maybe could have some heaviness.

 

[Charbella]

Ok, but thats the point. Why physical/sexual/psychological abuse + assault is so much dissociated with the term bullying? Doesnt term bullying means abuse in school? Should I have that dissociated?

Being abused in jail or being POW have much heavier meaning, yet in some circumstances are sometimes the same. Children's trauma is just as heavy as adult trauma.

I agree that articles on internet cant be reliable, I took this from some UK PTSD charity organisation in mind it maybe could have some heaviness.

While I completely agree child trauma is as bad as adult. Worse in a lot of cases as the element of being unable to remove oneself from certain situations. You are saying you were bullied. Generally this means harassed with words maybe pushed around some. It isn’t generally associated with being molested nor assaulted because then you should say I was assaulted many times a day by my peers.

I teach we call bullying a kid harassing another with words either in writing or words. We DO NOT take pushing around a classmate nor molesting nor punching and call it bullying even when the classmate has been bullying their peer. Because one is detrimental and taken seriously and the other is breaking the law.

I’m so sorry that you were tortured as a kid. It’s sucks that adults didn’t protect you because they should’ve.

@Friday may be trying to tell you that currently a PTSD diagnosis doesn’t include bullying, what that means is not that you don’t have it but that you will not find a lot of resources if you search for them under PTSD. It’s not to say what you went through isn’t terrible. But you’re either going to need to call it what it is or assault, or search separately. For instance if I search molestation and PTSD I won’t find much. However if I search childhood sexual abuse and PTSD I’ll find a ton. I’ll also find a ton of I search rape and PTSD.

Just my two cents, I hope it helps.

 

[Nixx]

Ok, but thats the point. Why physical/sexual/psychological abuse + assault is so much dissociated with the term bullying? Doesnt term bullying means abuse in school? Should I have that dissociated?

Being abused in jail or being POW have much heavier meaning, yet in some circumstances are sometimes the same. Children's trauma is just as heavy as adult trauma.

I agree that articles on internet cant be reliable, I took this from some UK PTSD charity organisation in mind it maybe could have some heaviness.

Can I tell you something? Low level harassment over a long enough timeline can still f*ck you up as much as big events like physical violence or rape. I've had BOTH kinds at the same time. I think in my case they can compound each other. If you are forced to preform a sex act on a peer and then everyone knows about it and they drop rude hints about it for a month, you wanna know whose voices i hear more often tormenting me about my abuse? The peers who gave me hell about it. My abusers voice I can scream back at and silence (for a time) because over time Ive come to know they are evil and deserve no pity from me. But the guys I met while I was locked up? They are the ghosts that haunt me more day to day. Maybe its not the same as PTSD, but it can still haunt you and cause pain that is unbearable.

 

[Thund]

@Charbella
It helps. Also it helps as I would present this to my therapist or psychiatrist.

When I grew up during 90s I dont recall there was a word bullying, it started to be more commonly used at the beginning of new millenium, at least in this part of the world. Growing up in war zone surely is different than growing up in safe place, and I cannot say did it messed up my abusers (it didnt messed me, I was very young), but afterwar did messed a lot of households and families. It was different times.

Five years ago, during psychological evaluation young, in mid-20s psychologist asked me about my experiences at school. Just asking that I had emotional flashback and much pain and shame. I mumbled I was abused, and after evaluation passed on the test said briefly: "being teased at school." I was so angry.

Its hard to talk about this, being open, and yet in the same time getting properly diagnosed. Worst problem is I cannot recall most part of it.

But thx for response though

 

[Thund]

Maybe its not the same as PTSD, but it can still haunt you and cause pain that is unbearable.

That sounds really rough, Im sorry that happened. You mention maybe its not the same as PTSD, why do you think that? That could easily qualify as PTSD or C-PTSD.

If narcisist parents abuse child and say he's worthless, and peer abuse child and say he's worthless, I dont see it at all different. Its the same trauma right there.

 

[Sideways]

Low level harassment over a long enough timeline can still f*ck you up as much as

Absolutely true. But it effectively the brain in a different way, which gives rise to different forms of mental health issues. Not better/worse, harder/easier - just different.

Specifically, Criteria A traumas can impact the amygdala, which can give rise to ptsd. Other types of trauma effect different parts of the brain.

Getting diagnosed correctly isn’t an assessment of how bad the trauma was, it’s about how it effected the brain.

Why physical/sexual/psychological abuse + assault is so much dissociated with the term bullying?

This probably depends on where you are. Because…

they would just beat me

This is also physical abuse, and a Criteria A trauma that could give rise to ptsd.

 

[Nixx]

That sounds really rough, Im sorry that happened. You mention maybe its not the same as PTSD, why do you think that? That could easily qualify as PTSD or C-PTSD.

If narcisist parents abuse child and say he's worthless, and peer abuse child and say he's worthless, I dont see it at all different. Its the same trauma right there.

Think of it like getting stabbed vs a chronic infection. You can get septic shock from a big enough wound that needs more intense care. Chronic infections might not be bad in the short term but can fester and spread if left untreated long enough. Its not a perfect example i know but its relevant

That sounds really rough, Im sorry that happened. You mention maybe its not the same as PTSD, why do you think that? That could easily qualify as PTSD or C-PTSD.

If narcisist parents abuse child and say he's worthless, and peer abuse child and say he's worthless, I dont see it at all different. Its the same trauma right there.

to add to this, a deep wound might scab over and heal somewhat, but its more susceptible to greater and greater infection later on. That's how I feel my ptsd is. Ive ignored a lot of the big wounds that have scabbed over and are scarred. But if my life gets troublesome, they can get reinfected and cause alot of issues because they are irritated and never truly healed.

 

[Friday]

@Thund Before I reply to you latest, or touch on the whole comparative trauma thing, I want to get this on the table, first.

I am diagnosed with BPD

Have your doctors ever made it clear to you that BPD is a far “worse” than PTSD? It’s a much bigger diagnosis, as all personality disorders are, speaking to having lived through a far more severe situation than the very limited kinds of trauma that cause PTSD.

Im going to a psychiatrist last 12 years and had many diagnoses, but never really PTSD as my psychiatrist doesn't think its something for that diagnosis.

Similarly? Trauma does not equal PTSD. Nor does complex trauma equal CPTSD.

Trauma ≠ PTSD
Complex Trauma ≠ CPTSD

10 people can experience the exact same trauma, let’s say being raped, and go on to have 10 totally different diagnoses. For example:

1. PTSD (since we’re talking about it)
2. Anxiety Disorder (GAD, for example)
3. Mood Disorder (Depression, for example)
4. Specific Phobia(s)
5. Eating Disorder
6. Dissociative Disorder
7. OCD
8. Body Dysmorphic Disorder
9. Sleep Disorder
10. No Disorder (but this doesn’t mean no lasting effects).

That list of 10? Is just a quick off the top of my head, and could be in any order. I could do 20, or 50, and once we start adding comorbid things? As well as symptoms that exist but don’t rise to the level of a disorder in and of itself? <low whistle>

There are a few dozen disorders that can be caused by trauma/stressors/tragedy, and nearly every disorder can be exacerbated / made worse by trauma.

That’s hundreds of possible results. All from 10 people experiencing the same trauma.

All of these disorders? …And many many others… Share symptoms with PTSD. There is not a single PTSD symptom that isn’t found elsewhere.

So when doctors are saying PTSD doesn’t fit? That doesn’t invalidate anything. Your experience was real, your symptoms are real. Your pain & problems are real.

PTSD is also not a pain scale.

It’s not like if it was THIS bad, then it will be PTSD.

Many of the arguably most painful parts of life? Don’t cause PTSD. Because, PTSD is not about how badly something hurt, or how scary it was, or how much effect it has had, is having, and/or will continue to have throughout a person’s entire life.

All 10 people experienced rape, but all 10 people? Have differing results. It’s not like only the person with PTSD was “really” raped, or “really” suffers, or “really” has lasting consequences. They all do. Some far more severely than others, and PTSD is sooooo not at the tippy top of that list. Nowhere near.

The disorder someone develops does not indicate how much pain they are/were/will be in.

A mild case of X & a severe case of Y? Both following rape? Doesn’t make one disorder more valid, or one rape more valid. Including people who do NOT go on to develop a full fledged disorder, whatsoever. Someone can have zero diagnoseable disorders following a trauma, and still commit suicide -or lose their minds in psychosis- they’re in so much pain, and so desperate. Because, again, not a pain scale.

Where does my CPTSD then come from? If 99.9% is not from bullying, am I 0.1%? Why am I still living in fear reliving those moments? I feel lost, beaten and demoralized that this is something so rare.

There are roughly 40 disorders that share those symptoms you mentioned (including BPD, although people with BPD tend to experience more extreme versions of those symptoms than someone with PTSD will, it’s not an absolute.).

It’s not only people with PTSD who are haunted by the past, or suffer emotional dysreg & intrusive thoughts/rumination (or even the far worse ‘obsessive thinking’, that PTSD doesn’t have, but several other disorders do.) Dysreg & intrusive thoughts / rumination are not uncommon symptoms, at all. 10s of millions of people experience them, in this country alone, hundreds of millions worldwide. Not because they share a single disorder, but because all disorders share symptoms.

When I was talking about rare, I wasn’t talking about the symptoms. Those are super duper common, and there is no symptom unique to PTSD / every single symptom is shared with other disorders.

What’s also NOT rare is for bullying to have profound & often lifelong effect.

NOT just one disorder, but dozens of possible ones. As well as very real problems outside of the scope of any disorder.

 

[Thund]

I hear you, thx for the long response.
And I really understood what you mean in last response too, and that quote was taken out of context.


Problem is, my diagnoses are always changing. My first diagnosis was bipolar. And after first visit, all other visits lasts for around 5 minutes. I only have time to say do pills work, should she change my ad, and what symptoms I have. Never delving deeper, thats why I am so doubtful was there right diagnosis. I should mention I use public health care, not having money for private doctors.

What I really know then but tried to run away from it my whole life is what happened to me. I really put much effort to avoid it, if I talk about it I just feel frozen to talk about it, and later I will finally realize I had emotional flashbacks. Also, overwhelming toxic shame. Feel of dread that Im back in that time and constant sense of danger. Thats why Im pretty sure I have cptsd.

Why is that so important when I'm getting treatment? Because treatment wont help me if I dont adress it what it realy is, and I can get different, more precise treatment

I agree that BPD is also terrible, but as I gotten older it loses power. ( People with BPD get better until 30th year and even more until 40th year, in most cases). My mood swings almost dissapeared. I was also in a therapy group only with bdp people. And really felt so little i have in common with them, as I have 24 hours a day anxiety and feeling fear without knowing why.

But if they give me right diagnosis I can get right therapy with better results. Im going to my psychiatrist for three weeks, and need to have serious discuss about it