Service/Assistance or Emotional Support Animal Question

[lostforgottensoul]

The service dog in training is tricky. How do you make a service dog that is reliable in public if you can't take it into public to practice being a service dog?

Start out at pet stores. Also most Lowes, I believe Home Depot, Tractor Suppy and pretty much most hardware stores are pet friendly. I would start there.

That said, most State laws allow public access to service dogs in training. A few don't and for those States, stay in pet friendly locations. It's awesome how many places are pet friendly these days. And starting in pet friendly places makes public access easier and actually quicker from my experience. Because you are training in some of the most distracting areas around. A pet store doesn't get more distracting.

The States that do allow service dogs public access, after getting great in pet friendly locations, move to some easier non-pet friendly locations and work up to the harder ones.

ETA: Oh, also, those States that don't allow service dogs in training public access (or even those that do. I did this and Fl allows public access to service dogs in training) train in the parking lot of non-pet friendly stores. We learned how to heel with a grocery cart all in the Walgreens parking lot! Great way to build focused and work on engagement. Sit outside of the store, right at the door, and reward focus!

ETA2: Also, sorry, should of read your full post cause I said basically what you said but hopefully the parking lot idea is a great add!

ETA3:

When people ask me, I first ask them, if they have a disability that substantially limits Major life activities? Those who are legit tend to not have issue with this, and those who are defrauding the system usually balk and give up trying to get me to help them.

If someone does not met this criteria, then there is no point to discussing tasks and access. I had a neighbor who claimed his disability was he feels better with his pet dog and admitted to me point blank he was just buying an SD vest to defraud the system. (Glad I don’t live by him anymore.)

Those who actually might benefit from an SD generally need to start off knowing about the ADA, especially because someone needing a service dog could benefit from other accommodations and in some cases, other accommodations could replace the need for all the trouble and expense of an SD and the person can enjoy a pet dog.

Then from there, I would ask what tasks the dog is trained to provide. Amazing how many people think the task of “being cute and cuddly and it helps me panic less” qualifies. But yes, “Alerts to a medical condition” works and I have been asked, “how do they alert?” which can be a fair question.

Then from there, one can talk about public access.

You can actually do quite a lot through various training programs and exposures in places that allow pet dogs. Also, if one is polite and asks for access to train and SDiT - many places will be ok with it. Professional organizations (like guide dogs for the blind) take this approach. Working with a professional trainer helps a lot when going the owner trainer route. They have the relationships, experience, and outside objectivity to help with a lot of problems.

Sorry, should of said I was adding to what you had already said.

ETA4: Last add, I promise. Please stop bringing your pets and ESAs to Walmart. They are not pet friendly even if management allows it!

 

[siniang]

No. Yes what makes a service dog is its training but the big difference is service dogs do physical tasks to midigate a diagnosed disability. ESAs don't and just sit there to be petted.

Of course there is and ESAs are important in their own right and I am glad the US protects them under law and differenates between them and pets. Allow them in non-pet friendly housing (which pet friendly housing is usually more expensive where I live).

No because that dog needs to be public access trained and have the training to behave correctly in public. Which was the bulk of our training. Task training is easy. Public access training not so much!

I still feel like there is some misunderstanding?!? All what you said, I did say too?!? Or at least tried to ?

Again, we're really on the same page ?

 

[lostforgottensoul]

I still feel like there is some misunderstanding?!? All what you said, I did say too?!? Or at least tried to ?

Again, we're really on the same page ?

This sentence specifically is what I was replying to:

And at least technically, since they do need to be prescribed, they also are assistance animals.

Speaking about ESAs.

No, no they are not. And with so many ESAs being brought into public (look at Walmart) you really need to be specific, exact, and clear with the laws when talking about this stuff. ESAs are not related to service dogs. They are two very different things. Apples and oranges!

ETA: Assitance animals and service animals are the same thing. In america we call them service animals but in the UK and Austrailia they are called assistance animals.

 

[siniang]

@lostforgottensoul Ah! Now I understand what you mean. ?

My apologies, I wasn't aware of that distinction of the nomenclature (they're, for example, the same in Germany). I did not know that "Assistance animal"="Service dog". I think someone earlier used the word "medical equipment". And since ESAs need an official prescription from a mental health professional, I made the - false - assumption that they then are regarded similarly, just on a lower level (with fewer protections/permissions) as full-fledged SDs. (obviously, not protected under ADA etc., ESAs I mean)

I felt a little that you were preaching to the choir as I really am aware of the difference between SDs and ESAs, the requirements, and the respective permissions :)

What I was >trying< to say is that, >if< you already have an ESA dog, giving it prober public access training (=obedience, not required for ESA) and train it to do as much as one task, then it would qualify as a SD because it already qualifies the criteria for you having a disability (=diagnosis). No?

if they have a disability that substantially limits Major life activities?

Isn't that part of most diagnostic criteria for most mental disorders, though? Genuinely asking :)

Those who actually might benefit from an SD generally need to start off knowing about the ADA, especially because someone needing a service dog could benefit from other accommodations and in some cases, other accommodations could replace the need for all the trouble and expense of an SD and the person can enjoy a pet dog.

Care to elaborate a little bit on this? Since SDs perform specific tasks relevant to the disability, how would they benefit from "just a pet dog" instead? :) Again, genuine question.

(I'm thinking ESA here for many mental disorders, such as anxiety and depression. I think many people would be fine with "just" an ESA....but the public access thing is a big hindrance in my opinion. I know I would/do >greatly< benefit from the emotional support of animals, as a matter of fact my cats ARE a major emotional support for me and help me calm down, but only at home. Not at work, not when out and about. Not when getting an anxiety attack when having a coffee at a cafe because the hubby is late coming back from his bike ride... none of which are places I would be allowed to bring an ESA dog...)

 

[Sideways]

I know I would >greatly< benefit from the emotional support of animals, as a matter of fact my cats ARE a major emotional support for me

I hear ya!

A recent LaTrobe Uni study tried to argue that SD’s are bogus for mental illness because the bulk of what they do is provide emotional support.

To me? That’s about as stupid as it gets. Most of what my pdoc does is provide emotional support. Most of what my T does is provide emotional support. Most of what my meds do is help regulate my emotions. And if you have Major Depressive Illness? Emotional support, all by itself, can be what keeps you alive.

I think the answer, though, is something you mentioned earlier. In Europe, small pets are taken a lot of public places without question. It’s increasingly becoming the case here in Australia. A well-behaved dog is welcome a surprising number of places here - all you have to do is ask. Same deal with crated or wrapped up cats.

If you have places you’d like to have your cat with you because you think that would be helpful? Speak to management.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

What I was >trying< to say is that, >if< you already have an ESA dog, giving it prober public access training (=obedience, not required for ESA) and train it to do as much as one task, then it would qualify as a SD because it already qualifies the criteria for you having a disability (=diagnosis). No?

Yes. As long as you have a diagnosed disablity, your dog does at least one task to directly midigate that disability and it is properly trained to behave in public, it is legally a service dog/assistance animal in the United States per the ADA. And many do that. Owner train a used to be ESA.

ETA: Oh, and as long as that used to be ESA is a dog or a mini horse.

 

[joeylittle]

(I'm thinking ESA here for many mental disorders, such as anxiety and depression. I think many people would be fine with "just" an ESA....but the public access thing is a big hindrance in my opinion. I know I would/do >greatly< benefit from the emotional support of animals, as a matter of fact my cats ARE a major emotional support for me and help me calm down, but only at home. Not at work, not when out and about.

Here's how I look at it... I consider one of my cats to be an ESA. I don't think of myself as needing a proper SD, because I'm generally able to manage my symptoms most of the time when I'm out in the world. Can I manage them all of the time? No - but I can do well enough that I wouldn't say my symptoms have a serious impact on my ability to work. There are days when I can't function at all - but on those days, I wouldn't be able to function even with a service dog.

So - where I generally need the support of my cat is at home. And that's good because that's where he's allowed to be.

Would I get out in public more if I could take him with me? Probably. Would I have a better quality of life, overall, in my environments? That's possible.

But I can basically manage on my own, so long as he's going to be where I end up at the end of the day. Home is where my symptoms are the worst.

Also - and this is not necessarily something everyone agrees with - I find in the US that there is an over-reliance on service dogs to assist with social/public anxiety. If all you do is depend on your dog to help you calm yourself....you're never going to learn how to do that for yourself, on your own. There's no incentive to change your own behavior, and I think it develops learned helplessness.

Something interesting in the US - something like reminding a person to take their medication, when the person is otherwise generally able to tell time, keep appointments, etc. - most doctors (and lawyers) wouldn't consider medication reminders to be a medical task. When the problem is something that the person can reasonably be expected to manage on their own, even if using some kind of aid - then there's no real justification for needing a service dog to do it. There are other 'tasks' like that - things that people will say they need their dog for, but in reality, they could navigate using a simpler aid.

I don't think anyone would disagree that animals can make our lives better. Some people take that and turn it into, "I need to be accompanied by my dog or I can't do it". But there's a lot of other options. And (again, in the US) - because the whole "service animal" concept has gotten so out of control, I'd personally rather work with my ESA at the level that works for me, than add to the noise around the SD conversation by making myself believe that I need one, when I don't.

 

[Sideways]

Something interesting in the US - something like reminding a person to take their medication, when the person is otherwise generally able to tell time, keep appointments,

I get a giggle from the US system at times.

And absolutely I agree SDs can increase learned helplessness. Absolutely. And create a whole range of brand new anxieties that a person didn’t previously have.

 

[siniang]

@joeylittle I wholeheartedly agree with you! I kinda feel the same.

And that's why I don't and won't have a SD, heck I don't even have an official ESA (despite really wanting a dog back in my life and knowing how much it would benefit me, but I don't want to be one of those frauds I criticize).

Also - and this is not necessarily something everyone agrees with - I find in the US that there is an over-reliance on service dogs to assist with social/public anxiety. If all you do is depend on your dog to help you calm yourself....you're never going to learn how to do that for yourself, on your own. There's no incentive to change your own behavior, and I think it develops learned helplessness.

This is my outsider's observation, but ESA/SDs kind of are the new "pharmaceuticals". In my experience/observation, Americans LOVE their pills and vitamins and supplements and whatnot. ESA/SD just is the next level....hype. Current go-to "pill". Because it lets you take Fifi on the plane and to Walmart ;)

 

[Freida]

oh yea the ESA vs SD debate :laugh:

Honestly, I don't care which it is as long as it is obedience trained to the same level as my service dog.
If someone with an ESA goes into a public place and it attacks my dog (which happens way more than people realize) the owner and I are going to have an issue. If someone with an ESA goes into a public place an it is well trained and follows the public access rules then I'm not going to worry about if it is "real".

it does piss me off that they are scamming the system but at least my dog won't get killed and no one will get bitten. So there's that.

As far as needing a doc perscription for an ESA and not a service dog? It is kind of backwards. But the purpose behind it is simply to allow a pet to live with a person who needs minimal help. They aren't asking for full ADA rights. So why wouldn't there be a perscription needed for a service dog? Because they are considered medical equipment - the person is not able to function easily without it.

Can I function in public? yep - if I have to. But without SD it almost always leads to a massive increase in my PTSD symptoms which ends up with a fibro flare. When I have him blocking people from touching me, watching who is coming up behind me so I'm not startled and alerting me to when I need pain meds my life is better. Do people agree with that being a "valid reason" for a service dog? Not my problem. My doc, my therapist, my hubby and I are all in agreement it helps in my recovery and he is very well trained and not a threat to anyone. So he is fulfilling the role he needs to fill and my life is better. And that's all that counts.

 

[EveHarrington]

Isn't that part of most diagnostic criteria for most mental disorders, though? Genuinely asking :)

No, there is a difference between being disabled because you have a mental disorder and being disabled to the point of needing a service dog. Most people who are disabled do not require the assistance of a service animal, but we very much qualify as disabled. A service animal isn’t a blanket fix or help to everyone who is disabled. I understand there is a language difference here, but it seems that you’re making a lot of assumptions about what exactly “disability” entails.

 

[siniang]

@Freida You don't have to defend having a SD to anyone, especially not here :) Your SD's tasks are all very valid.

I think what it comes down to is that "function easily" is, at the end of the day, quite subjective. Without any sort of judgement. And hence the decision on whether or not someone really >needs< a full-fledged SD really is a personal choice that is not to be questioned (given all the prerequisites we talked about: having a disability, helping with actual disability-related tasks etc.). I feel like I would be a fraud and play the system (even >if< technically I would've fulfilled all the requirements) while you with the same symptoms and similar tasks >need< it and that's perfectly valid. Am I making sense?

Besides, I really do think EVERY dog, including all pet dogs, should have a basic level of obedience. They do where I come from. They don't in the US. But that, again, is a whole different conversation.