The Purpose Of 'shame'

[Survivor2Thriver]

It seems to be saying that if the victim submits and appeases the perpetrator, this can elicit a caregiving response. I'm not feeling much agreement with the idea. Reduction of abuse perhaps - but reduction of abuse is absolutely not the same as caregiving.

Absolutely agree. I was the slave in my family. I complied to save myself from more physical abuse. Whatever it takes to shut them up. I have used poison ivy as a defense mech. LOL I am highly allergic to poison ivy. My siblings delightfully rolled me down in ivy patches. Many summers I was covered in it from head to toe. I looked absolutely gross. LOL It worked out well for me. My perverted brother didn't want to touch me. Anything beats him chasing me down screaming he is going to F me in the ass! His plan backfired and he is to stupid to know it! I was relentlessly teased at school for looking so gross.:eek: I simply didn't care! I was/am forever grateful I was given a break fighting his sorry ass!

 

[Lucycat]

Jennifer Freyd and I are currently investigating this theory

I do realise that you have since admitted this is a direct quote, and not referring to yourself, but do you not think it should be evident from quotation marks to make this clear? You have reproduced another's work and it comes across - whether intentional or not - as being your own.

I know this has already been pointed out to you once and you laughed it off, but can I please request that you go back and edit it, to avoid any issues regarding copyright?

 

[Valentino]

Super-humanizing or counter-dependent strategies to cover up shame.

There is a minority of trauma survivors who choose an aggressive path to deal with shame. Instead of internalizing the shame so that they feel less human, they externalize the shame to the point that they feel super-human or more than human.

In a sense, this could be copying the strategy of the abuser, in fact maybe even being more clever than the abuser who had to resort to crude physical violence or torture. This highly intellectual and covert-aggressive strategy can actually work quite well to create an illusion of an internal world that is shameless.

But, unfortunately, it is more so a method to actively dump one's shame onto other people through projections and blaming. It's quite aggressive, manipulative and abusive. It almost guarantees lack of connection in all relationships. And it's highly exhausting, keeping up this fake appearance.

John Bradshaw talks about perfectionism and shamelessness as common underlying aspects that likely contribute to this counter-dependent strategy:

Perfectionism is a family system rule and is a core culprit in creating toxic shame. We will see it also in both the religious and cultural systems. Perfectionism denies healthy shame. It does so by assuming we can be perfect. Such an assumption denies our human finitude because it denies the fact that we are essentially limited. Perfectionism denies that we will make mistakes often and that it's natural to make mistakes.
Perfectionism is involved whenever we take a negative norm or standard and absolutize it. Once absolutized, the norm becomes the measure of everything else. We compare and judge according to that standard.
...
Perfectionism also spawns destructive competition. Certainly there is a nurturing form of competitiveness. Such competition moves us to do better and to expand and grow. But a perfectionistic system like the current school system encourages cheating and creates high levels of distress. Grades are often posted publicly for all eyes to see. And there is shaming exposure when one gets "bad" grades. Even the adjective "bad" lends itself to characterological shame. Each person is pitted against the next in a warfare of endeavor. The communal sense of joint venture and cooperation are lost.

--- from "Healing the Shame that Binds You" - John Bradshaw

The Characterological Styles Of Shamelessness
A third layer of protection against the felt sense of toxic shame is acting "shameless". This is a common pattern for shame-based parents, teachers, preachers of righteousness and politicians. Acting "shameless embodies several behaviors which serve to alter the feeling of shame and to interpersonally transfer one's toxic shame to another person. The transactional theorist call this passing the "hot potato". These behaviors are all strategies of defense against the pain of toxic shame. They are mood-altering and become addictive. These behaviors include perfectionism, striving for power and control, rage, arrogance, criticism and blame, judgmentalness and moralizing, contempt, patronization, caretaking and helping, envy, people-pleasing and being nice. Each behavior focuses on another person and takes the heat off oneself.

--- from "Healing the Shame that Binds You" - John Bradshaw

 

[Survivor2Thriver]

There is a minority of trauma survivors who choose an aggressive path to deal with shame.

Yes. Rule number one. I/we KNOW/UNDERSTAND it isn't our shame to begin with! :)

 

[Valentino]

@Valentino , could healthy shame (rather than guilt), be predominantly intellectual (as in, I wish to live up to my standard or self-expectation, while forgiving myself when I don't), whereas toxic shame is emotional-based ('feeling' cringe-worthy, like one should hide or is rotten to the core, as it were), the 'feeling' without even explanation, even if one has specifics that one is ashamed of but the degree of shame is very large?

I think shame is a core primary emotion, it's the glue that holds the self, relationships and society together. It can be replaced with intellectual flavor of guilt. But then it loses it's fluidity, flexibility and integration. Intellect responds a lot slower than emotions, and also doesn't have the same energy behind it to get us to respond properly and fast enough.

I would say that healthy shame is just raw emotional shame that we in feel our body, as a communication from our body, that is then properly translated, understood and integrated by our mind and intellectual body.

Toxic shame is more about shame that binds with painful emotions, suffering, stories, unresolved grief, etc. There is often shame to feel shame. These complex layers of unresolved shame become a big mass of energy which can become like 'a pain body', that starts to have it's own identity, unconsciously acting out almost like a demon hiding within our shadow. ie. 'Skeleton in our closet'

In this state of being overwhelmed by toxic shame, it can be very easy to associate the emotion of shame as 'the' trigger that brings out our 'pain body'. Then the driving motivation for all behavior is to avoid feeling shame at all costs. It's easy to retreat to the mind and try to intellectualize strategies and stories to justify and rationalize these unhealthy strategies.

But, it is still an active strategy to almost intentionally dissociate. The mental body is fighting the emotional body, and there can be only one winner, but even if you win you still lose because you become fractured (dissociation) and your emotional body gets exhausted creating deep depression. Then life becomes a constant alternating battle between periods of fighting shame, and periods of fighting depression.

Sure, in the short term, coping strategies to avoid toxic shame can be extremely helpful. But for long term recovery and healing, there needs to come a point where we have to be willing to actively deal with our unresolved emotional wounds.

Sometimes the only way out is through. What you resist persists. What you turn away from, follows you.

 

[Tinyflame]

I agree @Valentino . I guess I never personally seemed very 'equipped' to ignore or dissociate from it (toxic shame), which by the sound of that (provided one does not just isolate or opt for self-destructive ways to manage), may be a blessing in disguise then?

Thank you. :hug:

 

[Promicarus]

@Survivor2Thriver

Promicarus said: ↑
Dissociation is exactly that...defense against feeling the overwhelming inadequacy of the "inner self", which is hidden from view behind the "compensatory self'..which is developed in order to "measure up" in the eyes of the world
Inadequacy of inner self? No. Are you aware women dissociate during childbirth? Why? Unbearable pain. And there is absolutely nothing inadequate about a woman giving birth. :) Dissociation is a natural defense to preserve life. I dissociated from the terror I was forced to endure. No shame. There is nothing shameful about being raped. My family didn't "measure up" in my eyes and the eyes of the world.

Yes, I am in fact aware that women dissociate during childbirth...as well as the fact that most dissociate when in pain of any sort.

A more careful reading of my post would have revealed that my description of dissociation (quoted above) is not exclusive to dissociation in PTSD. In more simple and accessible terms, for your purposes...while I stated that dissociation is a matter of removing oneself entirely from the pain of experienced inadequacy...I in no way, or at any time, suggested that that is the ONLY instance in which dissociation takes place.

I really have no idea whether the comment "There is nothing shameful about being raped" was mean to relate to my statement(s) in any way. Only a sadly misguided interpretation could be responsible for any suggestion that I in any way implied that rape IS shameful.

It's always appreciated when one's posts are read carefully enough so that responses which quote them, and therefore purport to bear on them in some way, actually do so.

 

[Lucycat]

I/we KNOW/UNDERSTAND it isn't our shame to begin with!

Sadly my shame was my shame. That does not mean I deserved it, but as a child I most certainly owned it. I wish that was not true, but I was so young, so little, that now I can forgive myself. It took a very long time. It was not my fault and if anyone says I should have been bigger/better/stronger they are invalidating my experiences. Life was hard. Now it is getting better. Dealing with shame has been a huge part of that.

 

[Survivor2Thriver]

I really have no idea whether the comment "There is nothing shameful about being raped" was mean to relate to my statement(s) in any way. Only a sadly misguided interpretation could be responsible for any suggestion that I in any way implied that rape IS shameful.

No. It was not directed at you nor was I implying you were suggesting rape is shameful.

IMO it would be more productive to discuss how shame motivates abusers to abuse.

This thread has been interesting. I am seeing more responses as to why certain trauma survivors feel shame and are having difficulties. Every therapist out there is trying to help trauma survivors place the shame where it belongs. On the abuser. A very empowering realization thus freeing your heart. Internalizing the shame of your abusers causes depression. Self esteem comes from acknowledging reality. Understanding toxic dysfunction. Understanding you were a child. Understanding you were powerless. Understanding you had zero options. It is fundamental. The first baby step. :)

 

[Survivor2Thriver]

Yes, I am in fact aware that women dissociate during childbirth...as well as the fact that most dissociate when in pain of any sort.

The important point is we do not dissociate due to shame. Hence,dissociation cannot be a method of defending against the overwhelming pain of shame.

 

[Notsowild]

Shame is among the most devastating emotions for trauma survivors because it can have such a powerful negative impact on self esteem. I can also make it more difficult to share feelings with others. This in turn, can leave us feeling even more alone.

 

[Promicarus]

@Survivor2Thriver

The important point is we do not dissociate due to shame. Hence,dissociation cannot be a method of defending against the overwhelming pain of shame.

We most certainly do dissociate due to shame. Even a passing glance at any relevant literature would have informed you differently.

I'm curious as to what chain of logic led you to believe that while humans regularly dissociate from pain, they would not do so from the pain of shame, for some reason.