Torture Vs Abuse

[lostforgottensoul]

We say things like they're monsters. But they're not. That's the scariest part of all. They're not monsters. They're humans. Just like us.

What about psyopaths and sociopaths? Children that kill that sparked the tv show "Killer Kids"; the serial killers that come from well adjusted homes, as some have.

Psyopaths & sociopaths whom is incapable of feeling empathy can come from non-abusive homes and are calculated in their actions, as in not lashing out.

In my opinion, I dont define torture as "lashing out". I define it as calm, calculated, a lot of times pre-planned, whom gain something or they wouldnt be doing it.

Just my opinion but again, this does beg to trauma compare and in my opinion trauma comparing isnt healthy. Its all bad and horrible and should never have happened but it did so now we have to work through the maze it leaves us in.

 

[Weemie]

What about psyopaths and sociopaths? Children that kill that sparked the tv show "Killer Kids"; the serial killers that come from well adjusted homes. Psyopaths & sociopaths whom is incapable of feeling empathy can come, and some have, from non-abusive homes and are calculated in their actions, as in not lashing out.

Human experience is varied and tangled. I do not consider these people to be divorced from humanity, just to represent a more dire version of it.

In my opinion, I dont define torture as "lashing out". I define is as calm, calculated, a lot of times pre-planned, whom gain something or they wouldnt be doing it.

I suppose my definition tends to be more nuanced--though, my example was not necessarily about torture, but perpetration in general. I have experienced calculated and haphazard acts, and circumstances that I would define as separate from the norm. Something about it is different. I don't know.

Uh, I'm sort of fading off, here, so I'll just leave this as it is.

 

[lostforgottensoul]

I do not consider these people to be divorced from humanity, just to represent a more dire version of it.

Oh I dont either and agree that its another verison; or moreso a mental disorder. These people are still people but I suppose the complete inabilty to feel empathy is why people divorse from them but they are human nonetheless. Theres not a sub-species of human that Im aware of.

I was just expressing the stark difference in lashing out and being calculated is all.

 

[joeylittle]

Psyopaths & sociopaths whom is incapable of feeling empathy can come from non-abusive homes and are calculated in their actions, as in not lashing out.

Not when they are children, as this article (and thread) gets into: Early-intervention For Sociopaths?

while many people say they don't use an objective criteria for suffering, the practical application is a little different.

I think it's possible to apply accurate, objective labels without having to get into creating 'scales' of worst, least, etc. An act of torture is no more or less violent than an act of CSA, or domestic violence, or battery, or anything.

I think it's probably out of whack because so many people who have suffered trauma have problems with understanding their experience as it was - without minimizing it or excusing it or even maximizing it. But, the solution to minimizing is not exaggerating or mislabeling - I think ideally, it's educating the sufferer on the actual 'weight' of what they lived through.

When in doubt, I'll take international law over opinion on all of it - and then national and local law, as applicable. I'm appreciating this thread because it's helped me understand my own opinion better.

But, also, I like words.:ninja:

 

[lostforgottensoul]

This thread is most certianly educational and that I'll take any day! ;)

 

[ghotiff]

Even in this thread, you have people talking about how some members went through way worse than others, and blah blah blah. Either you're invalidating yourself (most of us do it) or you're separating yourself (I know I'm guilty of this one, even though it's not pretty or pleasant to admit).

I feel the need to clarify as maybe this was pointed towards me. My trauma was not as bad as others was who are in this thread. This is not invalidating myself but just factual. Was it still bad, did it still do damage...absolutely.

I feel the need to say it because I feel guilt that I can't even read about others abuse as I'm too sensitive and it will have too much negative impact on my healing.

I hope this doesn't come across as trying to separate myself, I mean it as being respectful. I really hope I haven't said the wrong thing.

this does beg to trauma compare and in my opinion trauma comparing isnt healthy. Its all bad and horrible and should never have happened but it did so now we have to work through the maze it leaves us in.

Trauma comparing is bad when it's a "competition" but for me it's more about trying to understand what happened and why it left me damaged. I'm realizing (I think) that it's not what happened, it's how it was managed eg the constant reaching out for help and the constant rejection of help (I presume from their denial).

Off topic..I'm sorry...ill delete if asked.

 

[joeylittle]

Off topic..I'm sorry...ill delete if asked.

not at all off topic. I'd just challenge you to, instead of thinking of your trauma as lesser (objectively), understand it by it's right nomenclature.

A random example - being hit by a stranger: battery, assault. Being hit by your spouse: domestic violence. Sure, it's also assault and battery, but the context - spouse - is what makes it domestic violence.

Neither one is lesser or greater. They are two entirely different experiences, emotionally/psychologically - even if they are identical physically.

 

[ghotiff]

I think my point was that even within the same nomenclature there is a scale. Take medical injury: a sprained ankle is less than a broken ankle.

I take great solace that my Csa never involved penile penetration. Maybe that is minimizing? but it's something that from the moment that period of my life ended, I held onto.

If one day my brain recalls a penetrative event (I have lots of repressed/missing memories so I know it's "possible") I know I will be a mess, and I will be here posting for support.

 

[Weemie]

Me and my mom were just talking about this. I went through what I went through, and that was traumatic, but she went through a separate and still entirely uniquely traumatic experience (having a child who has been blah blah blah blah).

 

[scout86]

I know I will be a mess,

THIS probably IS off topic, but I'm curious. I think I get what you mean there. And yet, what happened to you happened, whether you remember it or not, and you are where you are. You've already lived through it, what ever it was. What changes if you remember extra details? I'm not saying nothing changes, just wondering what it is and why you'd be "a mess".

I also said, specifically, that what JL went through was worse than anything that ever happened to me. I was speaking of "physically worse", mostly, and I meant it in the same sense that you used as a broken ankle is generally worse than a sprained one. (There's a level of soft tissue damage where a sprain can be pretty hard to recover from, as far as that goes.) I don't think it makes any sense to pretend that "everything is the same" because it's not.

There are at least three aspects to this. that I can see. First is the physical nature of the abuse. It's NOT a level playing field. There's a difference between smacking someone with an open hand and beating them with a baseball bat and there just IS.

There's also a psychological aspect to it that manifests in a lot of ways, but, as an example, it's different to be raped by someone you thought should protect you, or someone who's a random stranger, or someone who's clearly an enemy. Might not be any physical difference, but I can see, potentially anyway, a big psychological difference.

Lastly, I think there will be differences on the receiving end. That's complicated, but the kind of thing I'm thinking of is, if you have a severe phobia of rabbits, and someone locks you in a room full of bunnies, that would be horrible. Wouldn't bother me at all. On the other hand, I have a "thing" about critters like bats.... It doesn't even have to BE bats, I just have to think it is. (Actually, I'm kind of the same way with birds randomly flying around too.) So, lock me in a room full of flying birds? Not so good. Do it to someone who likes birds? Much different deal. This is complicated, and you can sure run into minimizing while thinking about this, but it's also true that different things are going to affect different people differently. There's an interplay between all of it.

@ghotiff , I think you're exactly right, it's a problem when this topic turns in to some kind of competition. Just not useful. At least not that I can see. And it can happen from several directions.
"What happened to me wasn't all that bad, I should just get over it."
"What happened to YOU wasn't that bad, you should just get over it."
"What happened to me was horrible and there's no way I can get past it."
"What happened to YOU was so horrible there's no way you can get past it." etc.
None of that gets us anywhere worth going. I totally agree, accurately labeling stuff is useful. Keeping score is a different thing completely. But accurately understanding things? That seems pretty useful to me.

 

[Friday]

In my experience they were just like me. Or, well, not entirely like me, since obvsly different positions and all... but there was no 'fundamental difference' in us.

Very much this.

Met some really decent blokes. Met some pure evil. On both sides of the line.

***

For anyone for whom that doesn't make sense... & because it's one of the things that separates it from straight up abuse / just as part of the discussion (since I've got some distance at the moment) ;

Abusers have a commonality between them. People who use torture? Not so much. Some will be abusers. Most won't. How skilled someone is? Doesn't really matter. That's an entirely different subject, though related. As is how crazy someone is, or not; and what flavor, if any. Perfectly sane, rational, good/decent/kind people can/have/will use torture. People trying to box torture and people who use torture into something unifying... Like abuse... Never works. It's a lot more like emergency workers, soldiers, etc. The things they do may be terrible, but that doesn't make them terrible people.

• 1 thing. Torture. Can include every abuse under the sun. But it's not abuse. Abuse is it's own thing.
• 1 thing. People who use torture. Includes each and every single "kind" of person out there, and every possible personal motivation as to why they're doing it. Work, revenge, mental sickness, no choice, better of two evils kind of choice, evil itself, greed, patriotism, fear, et cetera.
• 1 thing. Skill. Amateur to highly skilled professional.
• 1 thing. Motivation. Why is that person being tortured? At an individual and group level. Also every reason under the sun.

You can't just categorize someone using torture as an abuser. Most aren't. Can't categorize them as crazy. Most aren't. People who use torture are very, very, normal. In that, yes, some are abusers. Brutes & thugs, cowards & bullies, power tripping pustules. Some are batshit crazy. Some are sick motherf*ckers. Others are deeply honorable. Or scared kids. Hell. Scared adults, too, but I'm more inclined to give scared kids a pass. Or working a hard job. Or vengeance, which is so so sad, even if it's their right. Because crossing that line f*cks you up. Always. And not everyone comes back from it. Or petty assholes. Or victims of circumstance. Or fanatics. Or, or, or, or. People who use torture are really, really normal/ cross section of society/ people. Who they are, and why they're there, isn't met. Why does an abuser do anything? Easy answer: they're an abuser. That's what they do. Why does someone use torture? Not that simple. Dozens of possible answers.

 

[Ronin]

You can't just categorize someone using torture as an abuser. Most aren't. Can't categorize them as crazy. Most aren't. People who use torture are very, very, normal.

This, thank you.

Days long 'How the hell do I phrase all the thought threads' has a single line for an answer (Wait For Friday).