Unhealthy Church Part 2: Am I A Divisive Person?

[Anarchy]

Sending you:hug:

That pastor comes accross as extremely manipulative

My narc alarms are ringing. Playing guessing games and guilt trips like that is abuse. One of the basics of justice is for people to know what they are accused of, and by whom.

You are a good person, you were right to leave that church.

 

[seedling]

You've written some really smart stuff about this episode and I think you are ready to leave these people behind for good this time :)

I understand the replay of the childhood situation. This pastor abandoned you long before you felt that in your interaction with him. You can move on to somewhere, someone new and get better at getting your needs met.

 

[MariaTPhD]

Please, please, please, know that you are NOT a divisive person, just by evidence of your willingness to listen to them. THEY are divisive because THEY asked YOU to stop attending!

I wish I knew you. I would hug you and reassure you that Jesus would NEVER tell you such a thing! Jesus HATED judgment! If He didn't, He would have condemned the adulterous woman. Instead, He showed her a healing message of love by saying that He didn't condemn her. Period.

Churches are often susceptible to the same family dynamics as regular biological families. I am willing to bet you were the one that was scapegoated in your family. That is what shunning does. I am also willing to bet that the pain of rejection is agonizing for you. I know because I have been there in your shoes.

You are a child of God. He may want you in a new family for YOUR benefit. If the old church actually sought YOU out, it may be their dysfunction is so dependent upon having someone to scapegoat, they needed YOU more than you needed them! If it reminds you of someone, that person was probably a hypercritical parent who created this dynamic because they were so insecure, they needed someone to criticize in order to feel powerful. As much as we want to please these types, it is not possible. They act this way in order to meet their own needs. IT actually has very little to do with anything you actually say or do. This is why molehills turn into mountains with these types. They are just meeting their own needs. They are emotional children.

This is a good example of crazymaking behavior. It is a toxic system and your desire to move away from it is evidence of mental health, not dysfunction! THEY are the ones with a problem. YOU deserve to be loved by your faith community!

Do you like what Pope Francis says about love and about avoiding judgment? This year was declared by him to be the Year of Mercy. For Catholics, that is a big deal. Mercy is all about NOT condemning. None of us are without sin, so none of us have the right to cast the first stone, However, a group that feels self-righteous and acts judgmentally often hates being reminded of this. A wise woman once told me to stay away from crazy people. You are wise for doing just that.

If it still bugs you, talk to someone in your new church, or go see a Catholic (preferably Jesuit or Franciscan) priest to discuss this . He will reassure you that the old church is is BIG violation of calumny and gossip. Avoid them. They will lead you into that sin.

God bless your healing!

 

[MariaTPhD]

Sending you:hug:

That pastor comes accross as extremely manipulative

My narc alarms are ringing. Pla...

Love that....narc alarms...gotta use that! :D

 

[Ivan the Elder]

J.M.H., please listen to "dear in headlights". What she/he has to say is very right and good. I was talking to the Reverend at my church recently about how I feel it is the only place right now where I can trust people. I have been so badly treated by people this year in many ways, even to the point of being in danger of actually dying. I have been so very much helped by the wonderful people at my church. Without them I would be in very serious trouble, much worse than I am now.

The first thing he told me was " Remember, sinners go to church." I really didn't like it when he said that, but he is right. I might feel totally safe in my church and I do, but it is good to remember that bad people can also be found in a church. It so sad but very true.

I was so very lucky to find a church to attend that is a very good and beautiful place where I really do think I can trust all those that are there. It is very small with a small congregation and the priests there are extremely trustworthy in every way. I also know some of the people there for nearly 40 years and I know that I can totally trust them.

It is a shame that not all places of worship are so good, but there are churches that are led by sinners and cannot be trusted, sad as that is. I feel you must wash your hands of the church you have been attending and find some other place. There are times when one must simply turn away from something and leave it for good. I very much have exactly that problem to deal with and am still trying to cope with it.

From what you have been saying it seems you are dealing with abandonment. That is my type of PTSD as well, PTSD of Abandonment. It goes very far back in my life. It was brought to maximum intensity this year when my wife of 44 years left me with no reasons. That story is what I still have not been able to cope with. It is also not a type of PTSD that can be well treated by CBT. There are no well recognised treatments for Complex PTSD and especially not this type. About the only thing my therapists can say is to look forward as much as possible, not back. That is so hard to do when so much of my life is a trigger, every tiny bit of it and any single bit is a trigger. It isn't possible to use the standard method of re-exposing oneself to the triggers, there are far too many of them. Every minute of 45 years is a trigger.

You must face away. You are doing the same wrong things I have been doing so much and that is continuing to expose yourself to the very triggers you must avoid. In this type of PTSD it seems to be best to not re-expose yourself to the triggers. Instead, let them fade into the past. The less often you visit them the weaker they eventually become.

For you that means facing away, both mentally and physically, from the people that have been hurting you. It may even be a good idea to move away from where you currently live. That is exactly what I am planning to do sometime next year when the weather comes back to the nice part of the year. Staying in this town means living in a place where all and every part of it brings back memories that hurt me, over and over. It is late in my life to start over but I do not want to live what I have left the way I feel now. Suicide is most definitely NOT an answer, that is for God to decide, not me.

 

[MariaTPhD]

J.M.H., please listen to "dear in headlights". What she/he has to say is very right and good. I was talking...

I wonder if there is a way to find meaning in your experience? Maybe even simply for the value of being able to share it here with others, that would seem to me to be a very valuable way of using it for good. Granted, it may not make the whole thing better, but your contributions to this thread are of great value to the others who may need it desperately. I think your courage alone to endure is very valuable Evan.

I am very interested in your death experience. I work with some colleagues who are atheists. I would be curious to know your experience and opinion on whether or not there is a Being of Great Love. Only a few people have come back from the other side to speak of it.

God bless your healing!

 

[Ivan the Elder]

There isn't much to say about my "death experience". No fancy lights in the tunnel sort of thing, nothing at all other than seeming to fall asleep and then awaken some time later. The only clue to what really happened was stored on a machine for the doctors to find later. What actually happened to cause my very near death is very straight forward to deduce and understand but what brought me back is not at all clear.

I am the scientific "nerd" type of person and we do not much abide by explanations that involve something that cannot be logically and scientifically explained. In this instance the only reasonable explanation that is available is that God does indeed exist and for reasons known only to God decided it was not my time to die. That is the explanation I have chosen but my near death is not the only reason. There are quite a few other things that are becoming apparent but very difficult to explain (not possible?) in this universe. I won't go into that here as it would fill another thread very different than this one. Perhaps I will start one at some time. I will point out that the Reverend at my church is not just a retired doctor but was also a physicist. We have very similar views on God and His existence. We have been discussing that very subject in some evening meetings we hold.

My personal view of God is all about love. He is not the cause of the bad things that happen, frequently it is us. We also live in a turbulent universe where energy abounds everywhere. That causes deadly events such as earthquakes and tidal waves. It is part of where we exist and cannot be removed. If God were to do so this would be a cold, featureless desert. Our ability to live here on this planet is all about energy and includes all the hazards it brings. God "knew" what he was doing when he brought all of this into existence. The very fact that we are here proves it is a good place for us to live. We must pay the price that it is also sometimes a dangerous place.

Those that think God is somehow to "blame" for the deaths of thousands when a natural event happens simply do not understand. Also, when our prayers are not answered it is because so many of those prayers would then result in the removal of free will. When one prays that something be done in a certain way that affects anyone else it is highly likely that granting that prayer would remove free will from someone else. If we wish to have free will then we must accept all the bad things it allows us to do.

God is about love and only love. I never blame God for anything no matter how bad it is. That just is not how He works as was proven by Jesus.

 

[MariaTPhD]

There isn't much to say about my "death experience". No fancy lights in the tunnel sort of thing, nothing a...

Beautifully said Evan. Thank you for sharing that. Sometimes hearing more than a few people give their understanding of God as loving (and you gave an excellent exegesis of free will) can reassure a troubled soul who may believe he or she is not good enough for God. The things you stated were very soothing. I hope they reassure the author of this thread.

 

[Neverthesame]

Honestly, these people need to take a long walk off a short pier.

I cannot believe a church can act this way towards anyone. They have no right to do this at all, AT ALL! NOT THEN, NOT NOW, NOT EVER!

It's sick, no not sick. Sick implies they are not responsible. It's bad, horrible, evil. Yes the word. Evil. These people are evil.

This so called pastor, he doesn't wear red pyjamas, carry a pitchfork and have a tail and horns by any chance does he?

And how the hell are you a divisive person exactly? Because you want to be treated like your neighbour? Because you want to be a productive member of the congregation? That's not divisive. It's just not. I don't need to be a sodding pastor, reverend or priest to see that.

You know who is divisive? That church and the freaks running it. Sinners all.

By encouraging their members to treat you poorly, to DIVIDE you from the rest of the flock. They are divisive. Not you. They are. Period.

Where on God's green earth is it acceptable to call another church and "advise" that they shun someone for what was it? Oh yeah, for having accidentally recorded a bible study. Then speaking about said bible study to a person who is legally required to keep that conversation confidential. Oh crap! Quick Ma'! Call the Fed's, there's a doin' transpiring!

If I thought it would do a lick of good, I'd ask you to pm me that churches telephone number, so I can call them long distance and scream at them myself.

Awful, awful. How dare they judge you.

Edit: Corrected an auto correct.

 

[Flower Power]

When we face rejection and abandonment from a Church, Bible Study etc. because they do not understand what PTSD is and how to respond to our sensitivity and it can be extremely difficult for us to find our sea legs. I know I had a similar experience and the more I tried to explain myself the deeper a hole I dug for myself. They were very fixed in their views and nothing was going to budge them any different. But the gift for me was that I finally had to give up searching for acceptance and looking to everyone else to tell me that I was ok and good enough. I finally had to stand on my own truth and let everyone else be as lost as they want to be. Some people are never going to see us, understand us, get us and some are NEVER going to validate us as we are so desperately needing them to do. It is our driving need, the void of the missing love (for me of my parents) that left me forever chasing acceptance like that little duck in the story that runs to all the other mother animals asking if they are his mother. That was me. After the last heartbreak I was able to step back and let my truth be my truth. As far as a minister warning another church, all I can say is Jesus would be furious that someone claiming to be a follower and a leader of his compassion filled ministry could ever do that to anyone. That is wrong on so many levels it makes me furious. I would totally step away from this denomination and any of its related churches. They may call themselves a Christian church, but obviously their leader needs to go back and read his Bible.Jesus loves you and don't let anyone talk you into believing that you are anything but his child. Seek him not anyone else. Don't let man replace him as authority in your life. I was making everyone else my God by letting them tell me what to think of me and whether I was ok or not. None of us is perfect. And many of us are very sensitive but that just means we need his compassion and unconditional acceptance and love all that more. Jesus freely gives it. There are many false hearts that claim to be Christians. If they are not compassion and love based walk away, for they have lost the truth of his teachings.

 

[Ivan the Elder]

One thing that I have been learning at this new church is about something that I was told not to do when I was young. I was baptised in a very conservative denomination that believes it is wrong to pray for yourself. I was taught that one should only pray for others and that praying for yourself was in some way selfish.

I have been meeting with the Reverend and he is as good a counsellor as the one provided by the medical system. We have been studying prayer in the last couple of weeks and one of the most important things to realise is that you can and should pray for you own needs to and before God. He will listen and I have been very surprised just how well it has worked for me. It doesn't matter if it is God that is actually answering your prayer or if it is your own mind finding the truth you need. Either way is equally effective and I have been finding that for the first time in my life.

I very recently gave in and in a fit of total depression I asked for God to do something, anything, to make me feel better. I hadn't even thought of making a prayer, it just came out spontaneously. To my great surprise within a few minutes I was actually feeling far better, as if I had somehow taken a sort of happy pill. I do not know nor do I care what actually caused this. God may have all the credit because if I didn't believe so strongly in Him it most certainly would not have worked. God not only lives everywhere and in every time, He also lives within you. You do not require a church to worship God, only your own mind and some time to spend doing just that.

 

[Anarchy]

Hi Justmehere,
How are you today?
Here's hoping that your "little you" is feeling safer and valued by the people here.

Just so you know where im coming from in what follows; I'm not a church go_er. I don't disbelieve either. I was baptised by the episcopal s, spent my teens with the Quakers, was married to a Roman Catholic. I'm something of a small b, bad Quaker, and very small u unitarian, I also like Tao, Zen and the Suffis.

Quakers don't have priests, no one gets between a traditional Quaker and his/her God.

I'm gathering from what you have written, that you appreciate having a mentor in your spiritual journey?

The guys who I've been most impressed with as priests, have been the Roman Catholics. Although you can get idiots in any institution ( and good people in even the worst of institutions), Rome trains its priests well.

There are very different flavours within the church of Rome. What follows are gross generalisations My personal favourites are the northern Italians, as principled (dare I say libertarians?). The Irish tend to be more controlling, playing the guilt card and prudish. The Irish Roman church, and its descendants in Britain, oz and America, is also the one which has been having big problems with child abuse, magdelain laundries and industrial schools. The Spanish that ive met seem to be pretty superstitious. They can't all have been, the late scholastics at Salamanca were amazing philosophers as well as Jesuit monks.

The basic Roman teachings are Augustinian, and they are sound. They won't have people panicking because the rapture is supposed to be the day after tomorrow...

I personally steer well clear of any of the "post millenialists" (belief that man must stamp out sin and establish god's kingdom for 1,000 years before Jesus will return), post mils have proven in the 20th century to be more than willing to pick pockets, break legs, and mutilate [my] genitals, in the name of stamping out "sin".

For non Christians, if you can find some welcoming buddists... Some buddists just want to be left alone and arent necessarily welcoming, others are welcoming. Also, have you any Sikhs? They're pretty cool.