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University Is Stonewalling Me

  • Post starter Post starter DancingBull
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but I believe the onus is on them to provide specifics of what they are looking for
I agree with @joeylittle. The onus is not completely on them. They dont know what documentation you can provide and thus can't tell you what you need to provide. They also can't say if you have letter A B and C then you will get approval because that leaves the door wide open for people to abuse the system.

I also think it's standard to list the symptoms/issues from your ptsd. Eg If you break your leg, what is the reason you can't finish the course, is it because you missed too much while in hospital, is it because the pain gets in the way of concentrating, is it because you can't do the subject directly (eg it's a sports degree and requires active participation).

Maybe you have already done all this.
 
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Just wanted to say that I've read everyone's most recent comments and am greatly appreciative of them. I'm not feeling up to responding today, but I'll do so as soon as I can. There's also some additional and relevant background that I forgot to include yesterday. And I've received another response from them which I will share later... more of the same, basically. Thanks again.
 
Hi @DancingBull. I can't reply fully and I'm out tomorrow, but after that I will give a proper repsonse. Just to say, I will keep checking here. I just realised you're not signed up. If you can get a pm to me at all? or some way that I can give you my email? You sound very competent in everything you;ve tried so far, but I'm more than happy to help you with your case if I'm able to :-) Hope you feel better soon.
 
Ok, so let me see if I can get a response together here. Will try to make it as concise as possible, but not sure if it is possible.

The additional background I forgot to mention previously is that I never even initially desired to submit a financial forgiveness request! Only did so as a last resort. I went through great lengths to get my professor and then the school to grant me an Incomplete, which would have allowed me additional time (until the start of the next term, I believe) to complete the outstanding requirements. That was all I wanted. I had gotten an A or A- (can’t remember) on the first major assignment and had already proved myself in the course. I just simply couldn’t get my sh*t together to get everything else completed before the end of the term. Other than the money I dropped on the course and books, my performance in the course itself had no bearing whatsoever on my academic record – unless I received a B- or greater and opted to transfer the credit to my real graduate school. Otherwise, my real graduate school could care less what I got in it, and they are the only ones who matter; my academic record at the other organization posing as a school is of zero consequence to me and I certainly will not be enrolling in any further courses there. I think I just reexplained the same thing a few different ways, so apologies.

The reason why this is relevant is because the response I got from my professor and the school is the same type of crap I’ve been dealing with regarding the financial forgiveness request. Thus, it is my opinion this issue of stonewalling goes much farther than financial forgiveness. The school appears to have a lot of so-called policies and processes in place but in reality does not seem willing to work with students in any respect. I know this is probably common across institutions and that it’s not itself a sound legal argument, but it is also not representative on what this “school” claims to be.

The school’s policy is that you can apply for an Incomplete if you are able to complete 50% of the course work before the end of the term, but the professors have the ability to grant exemptions to the 50% requirement on an individual basis. I went back and forth with the professor and my student advisor who pointed the finger at one another as having the authority to grant the exemption. Initially, the professor (who, by the way, I had been keeping fully apprised of my situation throughout the course and advised him that I might have to withdraw) seemed willing to work with me on this, saying we would have to figure something in conjunction with my student advisor. Subsequently, he instructed me to contact my student advisor directly, because he was not in a position to grant me an exemption. I contacted the student advisor who then pointed the finger back at him, saying the instructor (in consultation with the student advisor) is the one with the authority to make this decision. At some point I ended up having to put them both on the same email to get them talking. Ridiculous. The next thing I knew the student advisor stated the professor had decided he would have to stick the school’s policy regarding Incompletes and had declined to give me an exemption.

I then decided (for my own personal well-being) I needed to contact the professor to see if he could give me some insight into his thought process. I mean, what skin was it off his back to give me the time to finish the course? I explained that I understand he had made the decision to deny my request, and that the decision was likely final, but that I had some outstanding questions that I was hoping discuss with him. I laid everything out for him - very respectfully, in fact. He responded saying he was "sorry my experience in the program had been unsatisfactory, but he doesn’t know what else to add." (Is that the same thing as saying "I can see you are angry?") The only thing he did say is that he has had several students in the past who required medical extensions work very hard to meet the 50% threshold, and it would be “unfair” of him to set one standard for them and another for me. My response back went as follows, “Thank you for your response. Just to clarify since you questioned what you could add: I was looking for direct communication from you and insight into your thought process behind your decision. I believe that is a reasonable expectation in a situation such as this. While I have to accept your decision, I still don't fully understand it and find it somewhat contradictory to Name of School’s policy and the flexibility thereof.”

I’m sorry this has become so long but I guess I just wanted to shed further light on this school's sham policies. Let me see if I can quickly address everyone’s latest comments:

@Solara Good idea. I will look into doing that when I return to my real school.

@joeylittle I understand, but what is the point of providing a process if they don’t intend to honor it and they are not legally required to have one? It seems like it’s a pretty big mind f*ck. Again, I don’t mind documenting, but I don’t agree that I need to figure out what they need without them giving me any sort of parameters whatsoever. In that case, I could send them something (quite detailed) and they could still come back and say they need more. Definitely don’t feel you are being a jerk! Thanks :)

@Eleanor I like your idea of asking for general examples of what they need. I can promise I will be in more pain if I can’t get this resolved satisfactorily. And that doesn’t even mean getting my money back. Actually, I forgot that I had access to their crappy school email system, thanks for the reminder!

@ghotiff I respectfully disagree on the documentation point, for the reasons stated above. As for the grades, I forgot to mention that you are required to submit a request for academic forgiveness if you are submitting a request for financial forgiveness. So, of course I did so, and the academic forgiveness was in fact granted. Financial forgiveness declined. Go figure.

@Elsa23, thank you a million times. I should be registered now, so I will see if I can drop you a PM.
 
One last thing I forgot to add. The new response from the school is copied below. This was in response to my most recent message stating that on multiple occasions I have said I am more than willing and able to provide whatever documentation they require, but I needed to know what, specifically, is required before providing further private medical information. I went on to say that I could see that she had no intentions of ever actually providing me with a response and would continue to give me the runaround, so that I was I now going to pursue this matter through other channels.

"A hand written doctor’s note is not sufficient. If you elect not to provide additional medical documentation, your request will be terminated."

This is the first time they have ever stated they needed something more official than a hand-written note. In fact, I had specifically asked about that when I was putting my package together, and the individual who is responsible for reviewing the packages and "helping" students put together the most complete package possible before they are submitted stated that I did not need to provide an official, formal note on letterhead. Also, the above quoted response is the only information I have ever been provided on what additional documentation they need to reconsider my request. As you can see, it contains nothing about content or really anything at all.

And they can go right ahead and terminate my request (they have already done so since the beginning). But they can't terminate my ability to pursue what I believe is criminal behavior.
 
The only thing he did say is that he has had several students in the past who required medical extensions work very hard to meet the 50% threshold, and it would be “unfair” of him to set one standard for them and another for me.
I'm not sure why you aren't accepting this as the explanation for his decision - it's actually a legitimate reason, whether you agree or not. I'm not sure why you are putting the word "unfair" in quotes, as if you think it's not an acceptable word in this situation. When dealing with the "at your discretion" concept, one always has to find a way to understand and defend decisions. The above is clearly the rationale for his decision.
"A hand written doctor’s note is not sufficient. If you elect not to provide additional medical documentation, your request will be terminated."
OK - this is nice that they finally decided to be clear, and I agree, this is a sentence that should have been written to you at the onset of the process. But please don't gloss over the part I bolded. You can decide to provide full documentation or not.

I keep turning this over in my mind - I'm very familiar with the byzantine processes that universities use, and how completely ridiculous they can be. They rarely use common sense. There is often great confusion over who decides what. It's generally a mess.

But it is not criminal behavior. I have to circle back to the original request for medical documentation. If someone says "this is not enough", and you say "what would you like", and they say "more", and you say "but what, specifically" and they say "just more" - can't you just give them more?

Again, because they don't owe you anything - and really, they don't, not a single thing - it's incumbent on you to work within their requirements. Them being obtuse isn't criminal, it's just very, very, very annoying. Infuriating. insulting. But not criminal.

I think you are seeing this as discrimination, but it's actually just stupidity (on their part, not yours).

And I would encourage you, strongly, to participate completely in the process before you decide that you are being denied based on your illness being a mental health one. Now, if you give them a full accounting of your time lost, why you could not complete the coursework, etc, and it's drafted according to the (very vague, but clear) things they ask for - if you do that, and they deny your claim, then you should absolutely go straight to the disability division of your state ACLU. Do not go through the university at that point. The ACLU will be able to advise you further.

It truly sucks that your professor didn't just give you the incomplete. It would have been so much easier. But if they have never had a precedent case in your department, for example - there would be much dialogue about whether or not waiving the 50% requirement for medical was an acceptable thing to do. That's why it was bouncing back and forth. The part you didn't see was the part where it was also being bounced between the student advisor and the dean of students, and the professor and their dean or department chair.

And if they are going to make it so hard, why do they say you can even ask? I don't know. I think its because there is an exception to every rule, and universities tend to structure how to deal with exceptions so they don't get sued.
 
@joeylittle How are they being clear? And what requirements are your referring to? Yes, I now know they need a formal letter, but where they have told me what more it needs to say? I know you have the best of intentions here and are trying to help, but it feels as though we may be talking past each other in this thread? Or it may well be me and I just don't get it.

As far as the professor goes, the reason why I take issue with the rationale provided is because of the other correspondence that had occurred. He had previously stated his willingness to work with me on this issue, but then did a 180 reverse decision. Since this was an online course, he was actually (temporarily) teaching from a foreign country where he was pursuing some consultancy work. My best guess is that he declined to grant me an exemption because was simply being lazy and didn't want to have to do more work past the official end of the term, particularly because of all of the travel he was in the middle of doing. I get that this is his choice to make, but the reason why I explained the whole exemption issue was because I believe it is indicative of a wider issue here that I can't seem to find a name for but is related to what is happening with the current financial forgiveness problem. Also, I think you may be assuming a lot about internal university discussions (at this university, I mean) that more than likely never occurred based on my observation of what has been transpiring here.

The other problem I have with the professor (and I know there's nothing I can do about it) is he said "he didn't know what more he could add." That, to me, is the same as saying "I can see you are angry.... without further [unspecified/unidentified/unknown] documentation, our decision stands." He never once communicated directly to me his decision (after a whole boatload of email exchanges up until that point) and was saying he didn't know what more he could add. I was just looking for something! Anything! I believe that's a reasonable request, just as it is reasonable to ask for clarity on what type of documentation they need. Again, I know there is no "have to" here, I get that.

I do think you may be correct that I jumped to conclusions about this being specifically about mental health. I guess what I am really talking about, then, is that this school is a sham and is likely getting away with it.
 
I totally hear you, @DancingBull. And I find the whole thing they've put you through to be really piss-poor administrating.

I've worked at 3 universities in the US, one of them public - and my intuition about the other side of the process is totally just intuition on my part. But I can say that these kinds of things play out very much like you describe.

Along with your request, you must submit "medical documentation" that addresses the following: why (generally) you were unable to complete the course; timeframe for when the problem started; and treatment course. So, I provided a doctor's note addressing the specified criteria.

My reference to the requirements comes from this, and yes, it should be able to be much much clearer. Much. But more often than not, it isn't.

"Medical documentation" ideally refers to hospital generated materials: the diagnosis, what action was performed and by who, intake and discharge days. They should say what "medical" means, but many places assume it is self evident. It can also be a statement from a treating physician, but it's good for it to be notarized or on embossed letterhead. A strange rule of thumb for requests in academia is to provide one document for every number of questions asked. (I've just found this to be true a lot) - So, in your case, 3 documents plus a personal cover letter. Why? I don't know. It just is. Upper education in the US is a bizarro place.

The professor - well, I can only go by what you've said, so I really might be wrong here. I know in the past, when I've said "willing to work with you on this" it has honestly meant work with, as in collaborate with, as in try. It could be seen as passing the buck, that he bounced it to the advisor. It could also have been trying. The answer about past precedent is possibly honest. I see how to you it looks all very suspect, and the best I can advise is to check for anything in your feelings that might be more frustration than factual. But I don't know if holding onto the anger there is really justified. Or even if, I'm not sure it's worth the suffering it will cause you.

Is there any free legal service that takes up cases like these and would they have to name me in the complaint (which would be a public document, and thus, a no-go for me)?
My best, best suggestion is the ACLU. It's what they exist to do, as a reform organization. They do engage with disability issues and discrimination. At the very least, they should give you really good advice. And they protect confidentiality whenever necessary.

Again - really, I'm not trying to be a jerk about it. I've spent over 15 years inside these places, and have seen some things that should be wrong, but they are just policy. Stupid, redundant, designed to get you to walk away policy.

A good process advocate would give you all this info. I do think whatever school it is, it sounds particularly poorly managed, administratively.

And I really am sorry for your struggle with this.
 
@joeylittle thank you - I can feel your warmth and caring and I really appreciate you giving me the perspective from the "other side."

The more I've thought about it I've come to the conclusion that my frustration is with the fact that the university is treating medical documentation for mental health issues in the same way as they treat medical documentation for physical health issues. It's practically apples and oranges. Sure, if I had broken my leg, it would be easy to produce the X-rays, related doctor's notes, and an explanation as to how/why I was impeded from going to class. I don't see how it's the same for those with a mental health issue. That's why I believe the school *should* provide specific guidance for mental health issues, otherwise students would end up having to divulge their deepest darkest secrets (not just that they broke a leg - who cares). Based on what you've said previously, I understand that they are not a breaking a law, but I think there should be a law. This is not right.
 
I understand that they are not a breaking a law, but I think there should be a law. This is not right.
I don't disagree. It's what the ACLU could help with - it's exactly what they are there for, this kind of thing. Discrimination/infringement of rights, in this case, disability discrimination (I'd think). I really am sorry for what you are going through here. Institutions of 'higher learning' do many things that are quite low and dumb, if you ask me.
 
For those of you from countries outside of the U.S., are you aware of any laws in your countries that give students with mental health diagnoses certain protections when filing an academic or financial waiver request due to a mental health medical issue?
 
I think this issue is outside of the law. Your school was actually being nice by having such a program for tuition forgiveness. Many schools do not have such programs. That is, if you get sick, so what, you still pay the bill.

In the US, if you get so sick that you can't work, the option is usually for federal loan discharge. That process is about 10 times worse than what you describe. I'm not saying this to be snarky, rather, tuition forgiveness is a b!tch no matter how it comes about and there is no legal recourse. "They" always have the power, and if you don't give them what they want, too bad, but you lose.

I can't help but feel that you are young and idealistic? Not a bad thing, but it shows in your opinions about how things "should" be and how you think life is unfair because such things aren't as *you* think they should be. I hate to break it to you, but life is full of stuff like this.....FULL of it. There is a lot of bureaucratic BS in life, and sometimes you just have to accept it as you go rather than fight against every little thing. I'm not saying to lay down and give up, but OMG I had a family member who thought he had to fight against everything he didn't personally see as "fair" and it really got him nowhere. (Isolated, fought against everyone and everything, much emotional turmoil, etc).
 
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