I get this too.. except mostly mull over and over with my alternate endings to my intrusive thoughts. Most of my anger stems from a sense that it's my responsibility to protect any other lady or girl from some trivial, innocent interaction. Then the isolation, guilt and irritability set in..
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Sexual Assault Was This Rape? I Couldn't Say No
- Post starter theshadowoftheliving
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I get this too.. except mostly mull over and over with my alternate endings to my intrusive thoughts. Most of my anger stems from a sense that it's my responsibility to protect any other lady or girl from some trivial, innocent interaction. Then the isolation, guilt and irritability set in..
Neverthesame
Diamond Member
Predator. That is what this guy is.
Not a clumsy oaf, stupid man, horny teenager. He's a predator.
Using manipulation to trap a victim into a trap. Not all prey is easy to catch. Not all prey are easy fodder.
This predator got one over on you because he has gone to enormous lengths to be good at this. Not because you were careless. This was not your fault.
When I look at what you said this guy acted like, I see a guy who has gone to great lengths to seem as passive as possible. To appear as safe as possible.
He knew exactly what to say to an apprehensive woman to wear her guard down. Using cunning manipulation to manoeuvre you into an area away from other people whole may have tried to intervene. Into a place where could take his time so slowly put the pressure on, untill he got what he wanted.
I would honestly be staggered if he has not done this many times before.
It just wasn't your fault. A good predator gets his prey. A great one gets his prey without her realising that she was prey.
Please try to be kind to yourself.
...I respectfully disagree. I think it's a message the guy heard and refused to comply with, because he's willing to rape. He just doesn't call himself that, I'm sure.
Slime balls are GREAT at making up justifications for their own behavior, I won't be helping them any.
As men and women we have a personal responsibility to not insert things into people's bodies when jolly well told not to, or when the person's incapacitated from ingested substances.
I do think men have gotten poisonous messages, like " No really means yes if she doesn't struggle." that's not a good thing.
But it's STILL their bloody job to keep their body parts out of mine if I don't want them there. I should not have to gouge their eyeballs out of socket to get the point across, alright?
...She told him to stop.
BUT...here's a thought...if you were too terrified of the person getting sexual with you to say NO, and you were not enjoying it and you did not want it...then it certainly would seem to have been coerced sex... I mean..if someone acts disgusted and afraid of me, I'm going to back off!
Plus your experience includes saying no and getting beaten, then raped. So that might have led to further victimization, depending on order of happening.
...Perps can *read* victims. They have a good sense of who they can scare. Having been a victim of child abuse or any sort of previous sex abuse seriously ups your chances of being sexually assaulted.
I agree that people do dumb stuff that leaves them way more vulnerable to rape and other crimes at times?
And they should not do those things.
I advise anyone to work to make sure the opportunist rapist finds an easier victim-du-jour than themselves.
But please to realize that victim might have been you or someone you love had different things happened or had the perp preferred a different type.
Also, most rapists are ...well, majority are men, and they are going to be men known to the victim. Not stranger rape. Assault by a stranger is a lot less likely.
Generally? A rapist will groom his victim first, put him or her at ease.
Shadow was ***groomed*** by this guy.
The guy said all the right things to a shy, timid woman who had been hurt before.
He got her somewhere private and only then did Mr Rapist come out of the box.
...The rapist ALWAYS makes the choice to rape. Always. Please don't ever deny the perps one whit of the blame.
We don't hold them accountable, societally...and it's because people blame their victims.
Friday
Sponsor
I think it's a little early to be labeling dude as a manipulator, predator, & a rapist.
Not defending Dude himself... I have no idea if it was assault or not, much less what his intentions were. I wasn't there. Just that I don't know if it's helpful, when the OP -who was there- lists out a) things that make it possible/probable* that he didn't know in the beginning she was serious b) Dude did stop.
* Drugging yourself which alters affect (makes it hard for people to read you), freezing / participating / not saying no until well past when you actually want to stop.
Seein predators where there isn't one, is as dangerous in most ways, as not seeing them when there is one.
Did he stop immediately? Nope. She said she said no at the beginning of the getting naked step, and he stopped at the end of the getting naked step. IME, that's pretty normal for most people. Breaks rarely get thrown on like icewater. There's some testing of "Is this a coy/flirtatious thing?" or "I don't wanna be late for work tomorrow, thing?" Or "I'm insecure about my _______, and just need to be reassured you don't find me repulsive, thing?" Or... A whole lot of possibilities that are all part of the dance of newly sleeping together with someone. One one of dozens of which is a solid/unnegotiable "I don't want to do this."
That he was telling her that she wanted it (making out) as she's a sobbing mess? That's also pretty normal for someone who was clueless that the other person didn't want to be participating... And everything has just gone from having fun with someone you like, to having them crying in your arms. IDK if any of you have ever been on that side of the line... But I have. Bloke came on to me, made every first move, and then in the middle started bawling. What??? What happened?? Did I hurt you? OMG, what's wrong???
Okay, this has honestly happened more than once. Most of the time they're heartbroken over their ex, or it was a combat thing, or something entirely unrelated to the Freeze/Fawn Response &/or sexual assault in the past. I've only ever made out with one guy (this bloke) who threw on the breaks and then attacked me for making him do things he didn't want to do. It was a total mindf*ck. Yeah, he said maybe we shouldn't do this.. Right before he took off my pants! :confused: And then was a super active participant. Going from what did I do.... To I didn't do THAT. Look here, mister, you did ABCDEFG, I did abcdefg. You asked me up here, you made out with me, you stripped both of us, you you you, etc.
I honestly didn't respond well in the beginning. Being accused of assaulting someone you didn't? Got hella pissed. But then we ended up sitting in the hotel room and talking rape for hours. Cause, yeah, I've both been there and know plenty of guys who have been. I can talk rape all day long, if asked to. But I wouldn't have, if bloke hadn't stopped me. After reading him the riot act, I was in process of storming out, and he asked me to stop. And we ended up talking. A lot. I didn't know the word back then, but come to find, even in order to come up to me he had to be disassociated (zoned out/ not thinking about it) some, and that only got worse the further we went, until he was in a full on flashback. That he'd thought he could handle it, but this always happened. He'd either wake up naked next to someone with evidence of having slept with them and no memory of it, or would freak out part way through, like had happened with me.
From the opposite side of the boat... What gave us common ground to talk for hours...I've been there, too. Zoned, out. (Disassociating). Participating but not present. Flashing in and out of past and present. Most of those times? There was no new trauma / no assault / no rape... And no way in hell for my partner to know I wasn't really there. Other times? Yeah. They f*cking knew. They'd marked me as f*cked up easy prey, because at that point I really was, and by the time I did click back in? No f*cking doubt it was sexual assault from that point forward. Even if I doubted it myself. Esp. As I participated up until XYZ part. Doubt? Doesn't make sex consensual. Just because you doubt it was assault, doesn't mean it wasn't.
Conversely? Bad sex, regretful sex, zoned out sex... Doesn't mean it IS assault.
But it doesn't have to be assault to be wrong.
That's where I'm not sure it's helpful to label this assault for damn sure, when even according to the OP; maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.
Because when consensual sex is wrong? When you're doing things you don't want to be doing? (Present or not)... Not because you're being forced to (assault/rape) but because of past trauma stuff (or insecurity, or w/e)? There are things that can sooooo be worked on. A whole lot of things. Things to learn, work on, do... To make good choices in your life, that you are happy with/ respect/ are present for/ etc. That plain and simple don't apply to rape and assault. Because being forced is very different than making bad choices or not making the best choices for yourself. Assault isn't making a bad choice. No one chooses to be raped. Ever. But when you're making choices that are wrong for you? Those can be met & changed.
Not defending Dude himself... I have no idea if it was assault or not, much less what his intentions were. I wasn't there. Just that I don't know if it's helpful, when the OP -who was there- lists out a) things that make it possible/probable* that he didn't know in the beginning she was serious b) Dude did stop.
* Drugging yourself which alters affect (makes it hard for people to read you), freezing / participating / not saying no until well past when you actually want to stop.
Seein predators where there isn't one, is as dangerous in most ways, as not seeing them when there is one.
Did he stop immediately? Nope. She said she said no at the beginning of the getting naked step, and he stopped at the end of the getting naked step. IME, that's pretty normal for most people. Breaks rarely get thrown on like icewater. There's some testing of "Is this a coy/flirtatious thing?" or "I don't wanna be late for work tomorrow, thing?" Or "I'm insecure about my _______, and just need to be reassured you don't find me repulsive, thing?" Or... A whole lot of possibilities that are all part of the dance of newly sleeping together with someone. One one of dozens of which is a solid/unnegotiable "I don't want to do this."
That he was telling her that she wanted it (making out) as she's a sobbing mess? That's also pretty normal for someone who was clueless that the other person didn't want to be participating... And everything has just gone from having fun with someone you like, to having them crying in your arms. IDK if any of you have ever been on that side of the line... But I have. Bloke came on to me, made every first move, and then in the middle started bawling. What??? What happened?? Did I hurt you? OMG, what's wrong???
Okay, this has honestly happened more than once. Most of the time they're heartbroken over their ex, or it was a combat thing, or something entirely unrelated to the Freeze/Fawn Response &/or sexual assault in the past. I've only ever made out with one guy (this bloke) who threw on the breaks and then attacked me for making him do things he didn't want to do. It was a total mindf*ck. Yeah, he said maybe we shouldn't do this.. Right before he took off my pants! :confused: And then was a super active participant. Going from what did I do.... To I didn't do THAT. Look here, mister, you did ABCDEFG, I did abcdefg. You asked me up here, you made out with me, you stripped both of us, you you you, etc.
I honestly didn't respond well in the beginning. Being accused of assaulting someone you didn't? Got hella pissed. But then we ended up sitting in the hotel room and talking rape for hours. Cause, yeah, I've both been there and know plenty of guys who have been. I can talk rape all day long, if asked to. But I wouldn't have, if bloke hadn't stopped me. After reading him the riot act, I was in process of storming out, and he asked me to stop. And we ended up talking. A lot. I didn't know the word back then, but come to find, even in order to come up to me he had to be disassociated (zoned out/ not thinking about it) some, and that only got worse the further we went, until he was in a full on flashback. That he'd thought he could handle it, but this always happened. He'd either wake up naked next to someone with evidence of having slept with them and no memory of it, or would freak out part way through, like had happened with me.
From the opposite side of the boat... What gave us common ground to talk for hours...I've been there, too. Zoned, out. (Disassociating). Participating but not present. Flashing in and out of past and present. Most of those times? There was no new trauma / no assault / no rape... And no way in hell for my partner to know I wasn't really there. Other times? Yeah. They f*cking knew. They'd marked me as f*cked up easy prey, because at that point I really was, and by the time I did click back in? No f*cking doubt it was sexual assault from that point forward. Even if I doubted it myself. Esp. As I participated up until XYZ part. Doubt? Doesn't make sex consensual. Just because you doubt it was assault, doesn't mean it wasn't.
Conversely? Bad sex, regretful sex, zoned out sex... Doesn't mean it IS assault.
But it doesn't have to be assault to be wrong.
That's where I'm not sure it's helpful to label this assault for damn sure, when even according to the OP; maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.
Because when consensual sex is wrong? When you're doing things you don't want to be doing? (Present or not)... Not because you're being forced to (assault/rape) but because of past trauma stuff (or insecurity, or w/e)? There are things that can sooooo be worked on. A whole lot of things. Things to learn, work on, do... To make good choices in your life, that you are happy with/ respect/ are present for/ etc. That plain and simple don't apply to rape and assault. Because being forced is very different than making bad choices or not making the best choices for yourself. Assault isn't making a bad choice. No one chooses to be raped. Ever. But when you're making choices that are wrong for you? Those can be met & changed.
...if my alters do something when I am not co-conscious with them, not aware, not present...Or in a semi-aware state?
...I'm still morally and legally responsible for the crap they pulled.
...my others have done some seriously f*cked up shit I had to apologize for.
Nothing jail-worthy, braise Jeebus, but we scared the shit out of the ex-wife and made Mr C feel like dirt.
...just saying...dissociation/=get out of jail free card for me or anybody.
...I did misread. The guy stopped short of rape, IMO. Also in the current legal definition of rape as per the justice department.
Regardless of WHY he did what he did? Either he's a predator or dangerously disconnected from reality...neither gets a free pass.
...I'm still morally and legally responsible for the crap they pulled.
...my others have done some seriously f*cked up shit I had to apologize for.
Nothing jail-worthy, braise Jeebus, but we scared the shit out of the ex-wife and made Mr C feel like dirt.
...just saying...dissociation/=get out of jail free card for me or anybody.
...I did misread. The guy stopped short of rape, IMO. Also in the current legal definition of rape as per the justice department.
Regardless of WHY he did what he did? Either he's a predator or dangerously disconnected from reality...neither gets a free pass.
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D
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One course in sociology was a study of Ivy League students. What did "No" mean in sexual interaction. 90% plus of males responded that females do not mean "No" when they say "NO".
Boxing lessons once back on my feet.
Neverthesame
Diamond Member
@FridayJones While I disagree with a few of your points, it's always good to have your thinking challenged. I think it invaluable to look at a situation from all angles, real or perceived. You can't really protect oneself from bad situations or people unless you look at what draws them to you. To know thine enemy, so to speak.
Predators get what they want WHEN they want it. I disagree that this guy was a predator.
Dating is a game. I stopped dating for several years because I knew I was a mess and it was dangerous to me. Because of this. And what I really didn't need was more problems.
This is a really important statement imo. And we who have a hard time saying no and then freezing send mixed up messages. I think, until you learn how to say no to someone first and foremost, judge their response to that (does he push, does he get angry, does he rage, does he never speak to you again), it isn't a great plan to put oneself in the position where one may be in a situation.
Dating is a game. I stopped dating for several years because I knew I was a mess and it was dangerous to me. Because of this. And what I really didn't need was more problems.
Because you have to be really good at saying no when dating because of this
Nothing wrong with having a little 'Chuck Norris' in all of our pockets. The problem is we need to know what a real threat is. Chuck Norris, screwing with an undeserving person, may not be so good. ;-)
Perhaps it is just me, but I have had some wild issues with women as well. They aren't so much a physical threat but can really screw with one's head. Neither gender, imho, are easier than the other. But that is just me.
Perhaps it is just me, but I have had some wild issues with women as well. They aren't so much a physical threat but can really screw with one's head. Neither gender, imho, are easier than the other. But that is just me.
- Post starter
- #36
theshadowoftheliving
Diamond Member
Thanks, everyone. Still processing this and trying to sort out what belongs to me and what belongs to him and what is just a really unfortunate clash between the two.
I'm trying to own the fact that I am ultimately responsible for my actions whether or not I am dissociative, but that's so hard to own when it feels like someone else is making the decisions. I know that I am ultimately responsible for my decisions, whether I am cognitively aware or cognitively dissociated. I know that. But it's hard to own what happens when you don't feel in control.
At this point it just feels like a dream, like it happened to someone else. I don't want to label it as assault because it just doesn't feel real anymore, or like it happened - and therefore it doesn't feel that bad. I can't even bring up the emotions, really. It's so strange.\
More thoughts later. There's a lot to process here. Thank you.
I'm trying to own the fact that I am ultimately responsible for my actions whether or not I am dissociative, but that's so hard to own when it feels like someone else is making the decisions. I know that I am ultimately responsible for my decisions, whether I am cognitively aware or cognitively dissociated. I know that. But it's hard to own what happens when you don't feel in control.
At this point it just feels like a dream, like it happened to someone else. I don't want to label it as assault because it just doesn't feel real anymore, or like it happened - and therefore it doesn't feel that bad. I can't even bring up the emotions, really. It's so strange.\
More thoughts later. There's a lot to process here. Thank you.
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